If there was a way I could own an N registered airplane, I'd be talking to you. I have the cash but not the right colored passport.
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Van's Air Force
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Foreign Ownership of "N"-Numbered aircraft
- Thread starter skyflies
- Start date
If there was a way I could own an N registered airplane, I'd be talking to you. I have the cash but not the right colored passport.
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Negative........
....A non US citizen cannot own an aircraft here. I built a Cassutt back in '73 and I had not become an American citizen yet (from South Africa) so it was in my wife's name. This despite the fact that I had just served three years in the U.S. Army.
Regards,
....A non US citizen cannot own an aircraft here. I built a Cassutt back in '73 and I had not become an American citizen yet (from South Africa) so it was in my wife's name. This despite the fact that I had just served three years in the U.S. Army.
Regards,
The least you need is a Green Card and I don't have that either. Considering the prices of aircraft right now, it is incredibly frustrating not to be able to buy one.
Foriegn ownership of a US registered aircraft
It might not be possible for a foreigner to own a US registered aircraft but it is possible for a foreigner to own a US based corporation. And likewise, it is possible for a US corporation to own a US registered aircraft.
Simple solution, it you live outside the US and want a US registered homebuilt, start an LLC (Limited Liability Corporation). The company owns the plane and you get to fly it.
I am far from a lawyer but I do know of someone (from Canada) who did this with an RV for several years.
Doug MacDonald
RV-4 dreamer
It might not be possible for a foreigner to own a US registered aircraft but it is possible for a foreigner to own a US based corporation. And likewise, it is possible for a US corporation to own a US registered aircraft.
Simple solution, it you live outside the US and want a US registered homebuilt, start an LLC (Limited Liability Corporation). The company owns the plane and you get to fly it.
I am far from a lawyer but I do know of someone (from Canada) who did this with an RV for several years.
Doug MacDonald
RV-4 dreamer
I don't want to derail the thread, but do want to clarify something.
The corporation has to be majority owned by US shareholders, which is why many foreigners use trusts. Trust ownership will double my fixed costs per year.
ArjanPlomp
Active Member
Owning an aircraft.
I'm not a lawyer, but have some experience with this (I'm not a US citizen (yet), but a greencard holder).
Green card holders can own N-registered aircraft, just not via an LLC (because the LLC would not be a 'US' citizen!).
An LLC 'owning' an N-registered aircraft has to be a 'US citizen'. The following applies:
a. Formation—the LLC must be formed in one of the states of the United States.
b. Management
(i) The president, if there is one, must be a US citizen.
(ii) At least two-thirds (2/3) of the managers, or managing officers, must be US citizens.
(iii) At least two-thirds (2/3) of the board of directors, or its equivalent, must be US citizens [we rarely see an LLC that has a board of directors or the equivalent (e.g., board of managers)].
c. Ownership and control
(i) At least 75% of the voting interest of the LLC must be vested in US citizens (typically, these people are called "members").
I'm not a lawyer, but have some experience with this (I'm not a US citizen (yet), but a greencard holder).
Green card holders can own N-registered aircraft, just not via an LLC (because the LLC would not be a 'US' citizen!).
An LLC 'owning' an N-registered aircraft has to be a 'US citizen'. The following applies:
a. Formation—the LLC must be formed in one of the states of the United States.
b. Management
(i) The president, if there is one, must be a US citizen.
(ii) At least two-thirds (2/3) of the managers, or managing officers, must be US citizens.
(iii) At least two-thirds (2/3) of the board of directors, or its equivalent, must be US citizens [we rarely see an LLC that has a board of directors or the equivalent (e.g., board of managers)].
c. Ownership and control
(i) At least 75% of the voting interest of the LLC must be vested in US citizens (typically, these people are called "members").
craigvince
Well Known Member
BAPU
According to an article in Aircraft Owner Magazine in Feb, '09, a non-citizen may in fact have an N-numbered airplane. The less-known provision is called a BAPU (Bases And Primarily Used) registration.
"When an aircraft registrant plans to base the aircraft in the United States, and to use the aircraft at least 60% of the time in flights that begin and end in the United States, the citizenship requirements for the registrant are relaxed. All that is required is that a US coroporation (NOT an LLC) be established to be the formal 'owner/registrant' of the aircraft; a particular box on the application for registration is checked; the address in the US where the logbooks and records of the aircraft will be kept available for inspection be supplies; and a form showing the aircraft's flight operations as being at least 60% begun and ended in the US be filled out and sent to FAA every six months."
Check with any aviation attorney, who should be able to help you establish a simple US corporation and file the necessary registration documents with the FAA.
According to an article in Aircraft Owner Magazine in Feb, '09, a non-citizen may in fact have an N-numbered airplane. The less-known provision is called a BAPU (Bases And Primarily Used) registration.
"When an aircraft registrant plans to base the aircraft in the United States, and to use the aircraft at least 60% of the time in flights that begin and end in the United States, the citizenship requirements for the registrant are relaxed. All that is required is that a US coroporation (NOT an LLC) be established to be the formal 'owner/registrant' of the aircraft; a particular box on the application for registration is checked; the address in the US where the logbooks and records of the aircraft will be kept available for inspection be supplies; and a form showing the aircraft's flight operations as being at least 60% begun and ended in the US be filled out and sent to FAA every six months."
Check with any aviation attorney, who should be able to help you establish a simple US corporation and file the necessary registration documents with the FAA.
Barry
Well Known Member
You can also check out Aircraft Guaranty. I used them for a while and it worked out fine.
http://www.agcorp.com/about.cfm
Barry
http://www.agcorp.com/about.cfm
Barry
az_gila
Well Known Member
Not correct....
...the law was changed in the late 70's by Barry Goldwater Jr. - congressman in the San Fernando Valley.
My first sailplane was owned by my ex-wife, and the law changed during the two years it took me to get my citizenship.
I did have a "green card", so I think that being a permanent resident is required.
...the law was changed in the late 70's by Barry Goldwater Jr. - congressman in the San Fernando Valley.
My first sailplane was owned by my ex-wife, and the law changed during the two years it took me to get my citizenship.
I did have a "green card", so I think that being a permanent resident is required.
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pierre smith
Well Known Member
Thanks, Gil.....
......I stand corrected since it's been 36 years!!
Regards,
......I stand corrected since it's been 36 years!!
Regards,
I'm not a US citizen but lived in Texas for 5 years and flew my N registered RV for that time under the arrangement above. I contacted an out of state attorney (who came highly recommended) who set up a company for me. The company did not trade it just owned the airplane. I was the President, my wife (also not a US citizen) was the Secretary. I had a general meeting every year, sometimes at OSH, sometimes at SnF, once in San Diego! It did cost a few hundred $$ a year, but as I understand it there is no other way. Every 6 months the FAA sent me a form to declare that the airplane had been operated at least 60% of the time in the US.
The only issue was that when a Bonanza driver taxied into the airplane and did some minor damage the repair check was made out to the company ... which did not trade so had no bank account. It took nearly an hour to persuade the bank to let me deposit the check into my personal account.
For all intents and purposes you own the airplane.
Pete
az_gila
Well Known Member
It's interesting...
..that Barry Goldwater Jr. pushed for the law change, since green card holders wanting to own planes were not exactly a large block, and they couldn't vote anyway...
......I stand corrected since it's been 36 years!!
Regards,
..that Barry Goldwater Jr. pushed for the law change, since green card holders wanting to own planes were not exactly a large block, and they couldn't vote anyway...
N941WR
Legacy Member
Interesting
I didn't know about this. All I turned up in my research were companies that would set up a trust for you for an annual fee which is usually quite steep.
Do you know where I can get more info on this setup? Can you point me to the actual legal reference if you have it? Thanks!
I didn't know about this. All I turned up in my research were companies that would set up a trust for you for an annual fee which is usually quite steep.
Do you know where I can get more info on this setup? Can you point me to the actual legal reference if you have it? Thanks!
N-reg based in the UK
I understand there are a bunch of UK-based owners/pilots operating N-reg aircraft in the UK - not at all to get around the onerous CAA/EASA IFR licencing and regulation of course. No, of course not...
Anyway, you could make enquiries as to how they do it, perhaps? I think it's similar to the methods described in earlier postings though, but there may be other useful tips.
A
I understand there are a bunch of UK-based owners/pilots operating N-reg aircraft in the UK - not at all to get around the onerous CAA/EASA IFR licencing and regulation of course. No, of course not...
Anyway, you could make enquiries as to how they do it, perhaps? I think it's similar to the methods described in earlier postings though, but there may be other useful tips.
A
craigvince
Well Known Member
At least half of the airplanes that we export to Europe remain N-numbered. It's a VERY common practice.
az_gila
Well Known Member
...and a lot of Grummans...
...in the UK are left N-registered.
Last summer, one of the UK owners described a US Trustee with a Delaware Corporation as the usual method.
It seems to be described here in Pounds Sterling...
http://aircraftregistrationsworldwide.com/faq.htm
As Craig said, it's a very common practice, with many US registered mechanics over there, and a much easier IFR pilot training/currency requirement.
He also said that the N-number fleet is large enough to get government notice and was expecting a possible change in the future...
...in the UK are left N-registered.
Last summer, one of the UK owners described a US Trustee with a Delaware Corporation as the usual method.
It seems to be described here in Pounds Sterling...
http://aircraftregistrationsworldwide.com/faq.htm
As Craig said, it's a very common practice, with many US registered mechanics over there, and a much easier IFR pilot training/currency requirement.
He also said that the N-number fleet is large enough to get government notice and was expecting a possible change in the future...
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N395V
Well Known Member
I have never been asked to prove citizenship nor even my identity during the sale, purchase, or registration of an aircraft.
Only had to fill out name and address and signature.
UPS stores will , for a small fee, provide a numbered street mailing address.
I am certain anyone no matter of citizenship an individual could by, sell, or fly a fleet of planes without question.
Now it may not be legal but it is certainly easy to do and is probably done every day.
In fact given a buyer that didn't demand to inspect or fly the plane I could probably sell your airplane, have title transferred, and have it registered to the new owner and you would never know till he came to pick it up.
Only had to fill out name and address and signature.
UPS stores will , for a small fee, provide a numbered street mailing address.
I am certain anyone no matter of citizenship an individual could by, sell, or fly a fleet of planes without question.
Now it may not be legal but it is certainly easy to do and is probably done every day.
In fact given a buyer that didn't demand to inspect or fly the plane I could probably sell your airplane, have title transferred, and have it registered to the new owner and you would never know till he came to pick it up.
az_gila
Well Known Member
I have....
...and I am sure the same is true for most others that have their aircraft in a LLC.
The FAA held up the final registration of my Tiger for over 4 months until they had enough paperwork defining that the names in the LLC were US citizens. The 90 days permit ran out, and we had to ask for another extension.
I think the return documents had to be notarized, but am not sure at this time (CRS......)
...and I am sure the same is true for most others that have their aircraft in a LLC.
The FAA held up the final registration of my Tiger for over 4 months until they had enough paperwork defining that the names in the LLC were US citizens. The 90 days permit ran out, and we had to ask for another extension.
I think the return documents had to be notarized, but am not sure at this time (CRS...
...)This method requires Trustee type ownership corporation as az_gila mentioned and is more expensive than an out of state Inc company, but the Inc method is only available for aircraft mainly based in the US. As an aside, its not possible to use the Trustee route for an Experimental in Europe as most countries require that permission is given to operate a foreign registered aircraft that does not have a full CofA, and will only give permission for 30 days in any year (exceptionally 90 days).
7 years ago the easiest route was to form an Inc company. I would ask EAA or AOPA to recommend an aviation attorney to help you out. The guy I used has since retired, I believe.
Pete
jsharkey
Well Known Member
AC 8050-1
I recently completed my registration application on form AC 8050-1 revision dated 5/03
You need to certify one of the following options:
I/WE CERTIFY
(1) That the above aircraft is owned by the undersigned applicant, who is a citizen (including corporations) of the United States.
(For voting trust, give name of trustee ________________________). or:
CHECK ONE AS APPROPRIATE:
a. ____ A resident alien with alien registration (Form 1-151 or Form 1-551) No.________________________
b. ____ A non citizen corporation organized and doing business under the laws of the state of ____________ and said aircraft is based and primarily used in the United States. Records of flight hours are available for inspection at __________________
So it looks like citizen, "green card" holder, US Corporation or Non-citizen Corporation provided that the aircraft is based and used in the USA and that you can provide proof of such if required.
As a Brit it was something I never considered during nearly nine years of building. Thank goodness for (1)a. and Barry Goldwater JR. Who would have thunk it.
Jim Sharkey
I recently completed my registration application on form AC 8050-1 revision dated 5/03
You need to certify one of the following options:
I/WE CERTIFY
(1) That the above aircraft is owned by the undersigned applicant, who is a citizen (including corporations) of the United States.
(For voting trust, give name of trustee ________________________). or:
CHECK ONE AS APPROPRIATE:
a. ____ A resident alien with alien registration (Form 1-151 or Form 1-551) No.________________________
b. ____ A non citizen corporation organized and doing business under the laws of the state of ____________ and said aircraft is based and primarily used in the United States. Records of flight hours are available for inspection at __________________
So it looks like citizen, "green card" holder, US Corporation or Non-citizen Corporation provided that the aircraft is based and used in the USA and that you can provide proof of such if required.
As a Brit it was something I never considered during nearly nine years of building. Thank goodness for (1)a. and Barry Goldwater JR. Who would have thunk it.
Jim Sharkey
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Captain Avgas
Well Known Member
This is a bit of slight thread creep but there is obviously a fair bit of related knowledge exhibited on this thread so I thought I'd ask the question.
Does anyone know of any US citizens with N registered aircraft in the Experimental category who have moved to a foreign country for a number of years and taken their plane with them to fly in the foreign country while it is still registered in the US.
I'm thinking of basing myself in the Philippines for a few years and I'd like to take my RV7A with me.....but I don't want to register it in the Philippines for a number of reasons. Any comments would be appreciated.
Does anyone know of any US citizens with N registered aircraft in the Experimental category who have moved to a foreign country for a number of years and taken their plane with them to fly in the foreign country while it is still registered in the US.
I'm thinking of basing myself in the Philippines for a few years and I'd like to take my RV7A with me.....but I don't want to register it in the Philippines for a number of reasons. Any comments would be appreciated.
Yes, I know of several
I met a guy at Airventure who is a US citizen that has his Vari-eze based in the Dominican Republic, where he lives most of the year. There is another guy on the AOPA forums that is also a U.S. citizen that has his Pulsar based in El Salvador, where he lives permanently. I know of several N-numbered experimentals in Costa Rica, including a STOL 701 that just recently returned to the States, IIRC.
Check with the specific regs for the country you plan on moving to because YMMV.
I met a guy at Airventure who is a US citizen that has his Vari-eze based in the Dominican Republic, where he lives most of the year. There is another guy on the AOPA forums that is also a U.S. citizen that has his Pulsar based in El Salvador, where he lives permanently. I know of several N-numbered experimentals in Costa Rica, including a STOL 701 that just recently returned to the States, IIRC.
Check with the specific regs for the country you plan on moving to because YMMV.
