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Transition from R-22 to RV-8

Blain

Well Known Member
I thought it would be easy.

I had no fixed wing experience. Got right into helicopters. Bought a Robinson R-22. Put about 200 hours on it and decided that owning a rotor wing is too expensive for the amount I'm flying.

Sold the chopper and long story short-decided to build a RV-8. CFI friend with RV experience has a Decathalon and figured he could transition me easily.

If I could master the Champ the RV will be a piece of cake. Of coarse I planned on using one of Vans transition instructors, probably Mike Seager when I get near completion.

Problem; We have done probably, without looking at my log book, 75 landings. Only about 4 of those were without instructor assistance. I can't seem to break the helicopter reflexes. Level the skids at 50 feet. Slow to 20 or 30 MPH. Not quite the ideal landing proceedure in the Decathalon.

So I had an opportunity yesterday to fly a DA-20. What a difference. I can land it without instructor assistance. He did on a couple of the first landings but it was natural for me. No struggle. Needs some polishing but the confidence is back.

Analyzing what could be happening I identified 2 facts; The R22 is right hand on cyclic (stick) left on collective (throttle) Same as the Decathalon and same as the -8.

But..the DA-20 is left hand on the stick right hand throttle. It was almost like my left hand didn't have the muscle memory to overcome.

And of coarse the DA lands about 20 MPH slower then the Decathalon. Almost like slow motion after the Champ.

So the point of this thread is to ask those who might have been in the same position how they got past it.

Should I spend more time in the DA-20 then attack the Decathalon later or will this tri geared sailplane be counter productive?
 
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I got about 30 nosewheel cessna hours in 03/04, then about 200 hours in bell 206/OH-58Ds, then back to cessnas and got my fw PPL in 08 while still flying helicopters. Then I got into gliders and a few hrs in tailwheel airplanes but never got my endorsement. First tailwheel lesson was in a champ, then a L-19 birddog, then a stearman, accummulating about 40-50 landings between those three and never feeling very comfortable. All were extremely different. I then moved out of Hawaii and got some time in a cub and decathlon at an aerobatics course I took. When I decided to buy an rv-8, I needed a tailwheel endorsement, so I went for it. After a few landings, he signed me off. Guess I had figured it out somewhere along the way. Then I got my transition training in an RV-6. That thing kicked my *** for about 5 hours of nothing but takeoffs and landings over 2 days. I also switched to the right seat on day two so I could fly with my right hand and adjust throttle with left, as I was comfortable doing in the helicopter, glider, and all the tailwheel aircraft I had ever flown. I felt like I could probably survive landings by the end of it, but I still wasn't extremely comfortable. When I went by myself to go pick up the plane I had just bought, a couple months after my transition training, I was afraid it would kick my butt again, but it was a non event. Last 250 hours in it have been fine. The -8 is very easy to land.

A training wheel on the front is easier to master. If it helps your confidence, that's good, but I would stick with the tailwheel. You will get it if you are being taught properly. Also, the land-o-matic nosewheel aircraft don't care if you start driving it like a car on the ground and forget to always fly it (mains will ensure you track straight without the tail trying to swing around), nor do nw acft try to porpoise or PIO when the mains touch down like a tw. Once your hands and feet figure that out (I understood it conceptually but took a few hours for my feet and hands to coordinate it), it becomes natural and easy.

Stick with the decathlon. It'll force you to develop good habits.
 
Stick with it

Many years ago (1975) I was in the same boat. I earned my wings as an Army helicopter pilot. The transition to fixed wing was challenging until I equated the airplane landing to a helicopter maneuver I was familiar with. For me the fixed wing landing was similar to a helicopter hydraulic failure run-on landing or anti-torque run on-on landing. Stay with the tailwheel training.
 
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Instructor?

...And of coarse the DA lands about 20 MPH slower then the Decathalon...

I was struck by this sentence. In my experience The DA20, Decathalon and RVs would have very similar approach speeds, with the DA20 maybe 5 knots slower. Nothing like too high an approach speed to make landing hard.
 
taming the tail wheel

Talk to Brian Wallis (listed in this site) he is a chopper pilot who flys a -3, (and very well I might add) he can give you some pointers on how he does it.
 
This may sound bizarre from a left handed pilot, but I land cross handed some times. Like in a Super Cub on Bush wheels.
I learned in a Luscombe TW with left hand on stick.
The run on landing analogy was good advice too. We slid the slicks on in Army in 70's. get the speeds nailed too. really helps.
I see my students get nervous about wheel landings too. When you learn to go stick forward and pin those mains to Mother Earth, then dance with the rudder, it is magic!
 
I had close to 1500 helo time prior to my FW add-ons. Not much to add to the other posts...

Airplane landings were very uncomfortable for me initially, but only took a few hours to get used to the feeling of diving toward the approach end of the runway vs. the level/nose high attitude in a helo. Eventually the site picture feels natural and all is well.

All the tongue in cheek arguments aside - I've spent most of my flying time dancing on pedals - I chose a trike, because, quite frankly, I like the friendliness of the ground operation, but do like the looks of a taildragger for sure.

I have a bit of time in a Decatholon and found the feeling of using the feet very similar to a helo - felt quite natural. I also have a few hours in an r22 and the analogy with a run-on is very good. Better yet is a roll-on in a wheeled helo. The only difference is the final approach won't be as shallow as in a helo - don't want to drag it in. But the touch down - dance on the pedal feel is extremely similar.
 
You'll get it.

Blain, I believe your flying issues are unrelated to helicopters. I think it is just minimal experience in fixed wing. You'll get it. Take your time and it will come.

I had very little tailwheel time when I was building my 7, less than 20 hours in a variety of AC. I had over 2500 hours of helicopter time and about the same in fixed wing. Transition was to the RV was fairly easy but I respected my lack of experience in TW aircraft by taking it very slow and not getting myself into any significant crosswind situations. I worked up to that.

In the 7 the stick is left hand with throttle on the right. I found no problems going front the airplane to the helicopter. In some cases that occurred within minutes of each other. I fly medical helicopters and often flew the plane to work

Again, take your time and you'll get it. Most importantly, you'll have a great time doing it!!
 
I had close to 1500 helo time prior to my FW add-ons. Not much to add to the other posts...

Airplane landings were very uncomfortable for me initially, but only took a few hours to get used to the feeling of diving toward the approach end of the runway vs. the level/nose high attitude in a helo. Eventually the site picture feels natural and all is well.

All the tongue in cheek arguments aside - I've spent most of my flying time dancing on pedals - I chose a trike, because, quite frankly, I like the friendliness of the ground operation, but do like the looks of a taildragger for sure.

I have a bit of time in a Decatholon and found the feeling of using the feet very similar to a helo - felt quite natural. I also have a few hours in an r22 and the analogy with a run-on is very good. Better yet is a roll-on in a wheeled helo. The only difference is the final approach won't be as shallow as in a helo - don't want to drag it in. But the touch down - dance on the pedal feel is extremely similar.

I do have a problem with that. Everything just slows down in the helicopter landing. I never did a full-down run-on in the '22. Always power recoveries.

And yes, although I'm frustrated it is still fun.

So it looks unanimous, ditch the trike DA-20 and stick to the Decathalon.

The other variable here is that I can get more DA time then Champ time. The DA is 10 minutes from my office and the Champ is 1 hour. So you can see why I'm conflicted.
 
I do have a problem with that. Everything just slows down in the helicopter landing. I never did a full-down run-on in the '22. Always power recoveries.

And yes, although I'm frustrated it is still fun.

So it looks unanimous, ditch the trike DA-20 and stick to the Decathalon.

The other variable here is that I can get more DA time then Champ time. The DA is 10 minutes from my office and the Champ is 1 hour. So you can see why I'm conflicted.

If its an option you might try a few hours in something like a Cub or a lighter Citabria (like the 7ECA).

IMHO, the Super D just isn't as friendly to newcomers as some other tailwheelers. The Super D I flew has a very coarse throttle and seemed to me to be quite twitchy in all but dead calm winds. It took quite awhile to develop the finesse necessary to land that bird well.

The Citabria, in comparison, seemed to be on rails, as long as you hit the numbers and did your part to eliminate the drift at the bottom.
 
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Doesn't seem to be many TW aircraft in the area. Or that someone wants beat up by a student. Still looking though.
 
Have you talked to Hal Stephens at PVF??

Also, Randy Thorne----------you might remember him from Rancho M., he is a buddy of Todd's. Randy is not teaching any more IIRC, but he is a R22 and RV guy, so maybe he can give you some tips to make the transition easier.

PM me if you need phone numbers.
 
Brian, maybe my input will help.

I'm an Army guy that had a tiny bit of FW experience prior to going to Army flight school. I flew helicopters for years before doing the Army FW transition. I’ve been flying FW in the Army for about 12 years, and I’m qualified as an Army instructor pilot in both FW and RW. As a traditional Guardsman (part-time) I did quite a bit of civilian helicopter instruction as well. I only tell you this because I’ve taught guys in your shoes, and I understand it.

From reading you posts I don’t see you talking about anything that relates to which end the little wheel is on. You’re having trouble with what many, if not most, pure helicopter guys have trouble with. That’s the last part of the approach. Helo guys just want to slow down; we’re used to that transition from forward flight, through ETL and into the hover. It does surprise me a bit that you never did run-on landings in your helicopter training, but no need to worry about that now. The tailwheel part is mostly about having active feet, and will come into play after the point at which you have described your problems.

A dual rated instructor can often anticipate these “cross-category” issues or at least recognize them immediately, since he may have been there himself. I’ve taught quite a few high and low time helicopter guys to fly the C-23. Even after the fixed wing qualification course they will often revert to having the same issues that you describe.

Were you taught to use the “circle of action” in your helicopter training? Many instructors that use it will bring it up when talking about autorotation. Think of being in a steady-state auto, the point on the ground that’s not moving is where you will impact with no flare. You can use the circle of action to adjust your flight path to make your touchdown at a very specific point. Can you picture that steady condition all the way to the flare? You can extrapolate from that to an airplane during final approach. It helps to find a VASI/PAPI and use it for some approaches. Fly the specified airspeed with all the attention you would give to maintaining proper rotor RPM, for the same reason. For the first few, do not land, do a low approach. In this way you can focus on the proper approach without concern for the landing itself, plus you get some go-around practice too. Nail the airspeed and the angle all the way to the bottom. Your tendency will be to get slow and or steep as you try to fly it like a helicopter. To the average helo guy it feels like you’re diving at the runway once you get near the bottom of a normal approach. If you haven’t done many run-on landings that feeling would likely be amplified.

Once you are comfortable keeping the airplane at the proper speed and angle all the way down, all you have to do is learn to transition from there into the landing attitude, and fly the airplane onto the runway. With your R-22 time I doubt you’ll have trouble controlling a tailwheel aircraft after touchdown unless you just stop flying. Get that approach down, which won’t take long if you attack it directly, and you’ll be fine. I hadn’t flown a light helicopter in years when I jumped into the RV-7 with Mike Seager, but directional control was never an issue.

Doug
 
I had close to 1500 helo time prior to my FW add-ons. Not much to add to the other posts...

Airplane landings were very uncomfortable for me initially, but only took a few hours to get used to the feeling of diving toward the approach end of the runway vs. the level/nose high attitude in a helo. Eventually the site picture feels natural and all is well.

All the tongue in cheek arguments aside - I've spent most of my flying time dancing on pedals - I chose a trike, because, quite frankly, I like the friendliness of the ground operation, but do like the looks of a taildragger for sure.

I have a bit of time in a Decatholon and found the feeling of using the feet very similar to a helo - felt quite natural. I also have a few hours in an r22 and the analogy with a run-on is very good. Better yet is a roll-on in a wheeled helo. The only difference is the final approach won't be as shallow as in a helo - don't want to drag it in. But the touch down - dance on the pedal feel is extremely similar.

Brian, maybe my input will help.

I'm an Army guy that had a tiny bit of FW experience prior to going to Army flight school. I flew helicopters for years before doing the Army FW transition. I?ve been flying FW in the Army for about 12 years, and I?m qualified as an Army instructor pilot in both FW and RW. As a traditional Guardsman (part-time) I did quite a bit of civilian helicopter instruction as well. I only tell you this because I?ve taught guys in your shoes, and I understand it.

From reading you posts I don?t see you talking about anything that relates to which end the little wheel is on. You?re having trouble with what many, if not most, pure helicopter guys have trouble with. That?s the last part of the approach. Helo guys just want to slow down; we?re used to that transition from forward flight, through ETL and into the hover. It does surprise me a bit that you never did run-on landings in your helicopter training, but no need to worry about that now. The tailwheel part is mostly about having active feet, and will come into play after the point at which you have described your problems.

A dual rated instructor can often anticipate these ?cross-category? issues or at least recognize them immediately, since he may have been there himself. I?ve taught quite a few high and low time helicopter guys to fly the C-23. Even after the fixed wing qualification course they will often revert to having the same issues that you describe.

Were you taught to use the ?circle of action? in your helicopter training? Many instructors that use it will bring it up when talking about autorotation. Think of being in a steady-state auto, the point on the ground that?s not moving is where you will impact with no flare. You can use the circle of action to adjust your flight path to make your touchdown at a very specific point. Can you picture that steady condition all the way to the flare? You can extrapolate from that to an airplane during final approach. It helps to find a VASI/PAPI and use it for some approaches. Fly the specified airspeed with all the attention you would give to maintaining proper rotor RPM, for the same reason. For the first few, do not land, do a low approach. In this way you can focus on the proper approach without concern for the landing itself, plus you get some go-around practice too. Nail the airspeed and the angle all the way to the bottom. Your tendency will be to get slow and or steep as you try to fly it like a helicopter. To the average helo guy it feels like you?re diving at the runway once you get near the bottom of a normal approach. If you haven?t done many run-on landings that feeling would likely be amplified.

Once you are comfortable keeping the airplane at the proper speed and angle all the way down, all you have to do is learn to transition from there into the landing attitude, and fly the airplane onto the runway. With your R-22 time I doubt you?ll have trouble controlling a tailwheel aircraft after touchdown unless you just stop flying. Get that approach down, which won?t take long if you attack it directly, and you?ll be fine. I hadn?t flown a light helicopter in years when I jumped into the RV-7 with Mike Seager, but directional control was never an issue.

Doug

Hey Doug
My instructor is RW & FW rated. He tries to talk me through the landing. He understands what I'm doing. I can keep the steady state until I feel like we are going to splat if I don't pull collective. Your sentance; it feels like you?re diving at the runway once you get near the bottom of a normal approach. Exactly.

No problem once on the ground, my feet got it figured out, if not too gentle.
 
Hey Doug
My instructor is RW & FW rated. He tries to talk me through the landing. He understands what I'm doing. I can keep the steady state until I feel like we are going to splat if I don't pull collective. Your sentance; it feels like you’re diving at the runway once you get near the bottom of a normal approach. Exactly.

No problem once on the ground, my feet got it figured out, if not too gentle.

I really wish we weren't on opposite coasts, Blain - wish we could fly together for a bit. All I can say is that this was my big hang up the first few hours of FW flying. Eventually something clicks and it all feels normal, but during the first few sessions, landings really were getting into my head (in a bad way). Certainly the sensation is no worse than doing auto rotations - similarly, with the ground quickly rising to meet you, a natural tendency is to begin to flare too early then running out of collective for the cushion:eek:

If nothing else believe this. If you can learn to hover - especially an R22 - you'll eventually land an airplane (most of the time) without a second thought.
 
I really wish we weren't on opposite coasts, Blain - wish we could fly together for a bit. All I can say is that this was my big hang up the first few hours of FW flying. Eventually something clicks and it all feels normal, but during the first few sessions, landings really were getting into my head (in a bad way). Certainly the sensation is no worse than doing auto rotations - similarly, with the ground quickly rising to meet you, a natural tendency is to begin to flare too early then running out of collective for the cushion:eek:

If nothing else believe this. If you can learn to hover - especially an R22 - you'll eventually land an airplane (most of the time) without a second thought.

Always did autos to power recovery but I enjoyed the excercise. Fuse kit will arrive in a week or so. I guess I got time to work it out. Doing a number on the confidence, though.
 
Update;
Flew the Decathalon on Friday. Found 7 out of 7 reasonable landings. Not sure if it was just about time it "clicked" or the DA gave me confidence but my instructor was even relieved. Probably put some time in the DA in between Decathalon time.

I do wish I could identify exactly why it seemed so natural this week.
 
Good work. I had it nailed for a while, then had some bad ones. just know you will probably be humbled by some future landings, then you will get back to greasing them. When you hop in the 8 you won't sweat it after the first one.
 
Just another point. These things (fixed and rotor) are different. I had 2500 CH47 and AH1 time as well as 250 tail dragger in my old PA-16, and I found the 8 a challenge, maybe because I had a few years off, and it was so freakin fast (PA-16, J-3, Champ, etc was most of my fixed wing). I did transition with Alex D in Dallas, and thought I was toast after the first day, but it all worked out. I was so happy I did that transition-thanks again Alex'

First flight was great and landing perfect--maybe the last really good one in 50-60 hours, then CLICK, the magic was back, just like doing a hovering auto when you least expect it--you just do it. Now thinking through how it all works helps, and in the 8, wheel landings are really easier, but the 3-point seems a piece of cake now, all about attitude you know.

One thing I learned is that an instructor gets in with a rotor head, and they get really comfortable with the control touch you have, airspeed control etc, that they might not realize that you don't know what you are doing, so be sure to tell them

Every flight is still a learning thing, even though I am north of 500 hours now. The other up side, with that experience, you can likely fly any small aircraft, since you now know they are not the same!! enjoy the ride
 
One thing I learned is that an instructor gets in with a rotor head, and they get really comfortable with the control touch you have, airspeed control etc, that they might not realize that you don't know what you are doing, so be sure to tell them

The light touch of the '22 seems to be right for an RV but the Decathalon requires more wrestling. My instructor could see I was being too gentle and reminded me to make movements and not just pressures.
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The light touch of the '22 seems to be right for an RV but the Decathalon requires more wrestling. My instructor could see I was being too gentle and reminded me to make movements and not just pressures.
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This is a very good point. When I did transition training with Jan Bussel, I told him flying his 6 was about as close to the control feel of a helo (control stick compared to cyclic inputs) as I imagined you could get. I felt very comfortable with the control inputs almost immediately.

On the other hand, I just did my first lesson for my comm ASEL last weekend in a turbo Arrow. It truly felt like it had pitch control issues - that axis was very heavy! My instructor said something similar to me and it made me think back to starting my FW instruction. I was very "heloish" on the controls which didn't work very well in a spam can. My instructor said, "you have to make the plane do what you want" as he made, what appeared to me, to be HUGE (over) control inputs - especially during cross-wind landings.

As you've found, the muscle memory from helo to RV works pretty well - not to some other FW. Glad to hear the synapses are starting to fire. Just like hovering, it just takes a while.
 
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