What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Replacing EFIS Units...HELP!!

EchoCharlie1

EchoCharlie1

Active Member
All,

I bought a beautifully built RV-6 with Blue Mountain Avionics ONE and LITE units and now that the company has shut down, I'm left with a 10" PFD that tumbles (gyros suspect, but no response from Blue Mountain on what to do) and the fact that I am going to have to replace what I have.

Option one: Dynon D-180, total package approaching $6k, but no GPS in that unit.
Option two: Dynon's new Skyview system that has yet to be priced or released, but is still a few months away, with the option of the $1k rebate for my BMA unit.
Option three: GRT Horizon HX system, total package approaching $10k
Option four: Garmin G3X package for a whopping $14k.

Now that I'm back on active duty, I am a bit more attentive about the costs since the cash flow is not what it was prior to my mobilization.

If YOU were going to replace an EFIS setup, what would you recommend and why? What were the pros and the cons with the system that you chose? Thanks for your input, ahead of time.

As for autopilot, I am now using the LITE for the A/P since it drives it the same way as the ONE did. That will eventually be replaced, but for now, I need the primary flight instruments, HSI, GPS, and engine guages.

If Dynon or GRT (or others) wish to chime in, please feel free.

R/
Frank
 
Blue Mt

Since there are so many units for sale at low prices, could you not just replace the failed unit with another used one? That would allow you to methodically decide what your ultimate upgrade path will be.

You need to describe how you use the plane to get better advice. VFR? IFR?
 
You should consider the MGL Odyssey. 11" screen, built-in gps, full engine monitor and more for around 6k complete. A couple of members here have them and can give you more info than I.
 
gpiney said:
You should consider the MGL Odyssey. 11" screen, built-in gps, full engine monitor and more for around 6k complete. A couple of members here have them and can give you more info than I.
Click to expand...

What is the install base of the MGL unit?
 
Add'l Info

Thanks Vern...

I plan to fly mostly VFR, but would like to use this platform to complete my IFR work and eventually have unlimited usage of the skies.

If anyone has a BMA One gold box that is working and they want to donate (or sell for a very reasonable price), I'm open to talking about it.

R/
 
Last edited:
Hi Frank,

You didn't really say what the mission of your panel is -- Light IFR, heavy IFR, mostly VFR, etc..

I have the GRT Sport EFIS's installed in my panel now, although I am not flying. I am VERY impressed with the quality and functionality of these units. They are a great price and provide everything I could ever want to do (backup NAV, weather, traffic), including heavy IFR (separate backup instruments). They also have most of the functionality of the HX units, minus synthetic vision and a couple other options. If price is a major consideration of yours, I would really consider the Sport EFIS. For my mission, I found them to be the best value for the functionality they provided.
 
Hi Frank,

Tough spot - I have a neighbor who built an incredible F-1 around the BMA system, and now he is planning a total panel overhaul, likely with GRT equipment.

There are quite a few long threads in the archives here (make sure to search back more than a month, which is the default), especially the Glass Cockpit forum, that you could read for background, and then ask some more specific questions., Otherwise, this thread might not help you much - the systems all have their good points and their supporters, and as you'll find, each has a slightly different target base.

Paul
 
Just my opinion

The Dynon D180 is an attractive all-in-one system with an EFIS and EMS in one box, plus the capability to drive a Dynon autopilot servo. However, it will not drive an external autopilot, so if you loose the EFIS, you loose the autopilot too. I personally want the autopilot to be available if the EFIS goes down.

GRT also offers an attractive EFIS and EMS system, although the panel space taken by the seperate EIS is a loss , since EIS data can be displayed on the EFIS screen. On the other hand, GRT includes a broad range of advanced features, like synthetic approaches, highway-in-the-sky, flight director, and derived angle of attack. And it can drive a separate autopilot.

Both Dynon and GRT offer synthetic vision, although the upcharge exceeds the value in my book. The same goes for Advanced.

The Garmin G3x is an appealing option, although it's not quite ready yet. If you can wait for Garmin to finish it up, I'm sure it will be an excelent choice. They offer the best map view available, and augment that with terrain, weather, and charts. But, as you have pointed out, it is a good bit more expensive than the alternatives.

My choice is a GRT Sport with an external ARINC interface and EIS, and a Garmin 696 for an MFD. There is a lot of capability in this packabe for $7,750.
 
Last edited:
Kahuna said:
What is the install base of the MGL unit?
Click to expand...

Odyssey/Voyager combined (they are nearly identical) - about 1500-2000 at this stage, Voyager is slightly out-selling the Odyssey (Odyssey is a little big for many panels) - the Voyager at 8.4" screen diagonal is probably about the best size for most aircraft. Enigma is our best selling EFIS but is finding more favour in smaller aircraft (i.e. smaller than the RVs).
Voyager is becoming quite popular for unusual missions (the name is an accident here). It was used as only panel in Chalkie Stobbard's recent record flight Cape Town - London - Cape Town. Two Voyagers were used in Mike Blyth and James Pitman's mad globe circling flight in the new Sling. All performed flawlessly.

Total number of instruments (EFIS of all models and other electronic instruments) from the MGL stable are approaching 30.000.
MGL, unknown to many, has been operating as registered company, producing electronic instruments for aircraft since 2001 and started making instruments in 1998.

Hope that answers your query.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Frank we had troubles with our EFIS one at one point. The magnometer was just not working correctly and the internal magnetic compass was not pointing in the right direction. We changed the way the cable to the magnometer was run and the thing works great now. If you have a long cable to your magnometer make sure it is not coiled up neatly. Even though the cable is shielded it can create a magnetic field that can and will screw with magnometer and/or the internal magnetic sensors. Greg said he would still service the units for a fee so all is not completely lost if you need help with it. It is a great system when working correctly. I would not have any problem flying IFR with it but of course we do have back-ups.

I also have to add that it will start to tumble with low voltage!
 
Last edited:
EIS software not ready yet

Yes, when I said that the G3x is not complete yet, I was referring to software features. At Oshkosh I learned that Garmin includes engine sensor inputs in their remote AHARS unit, but they have not yet developed the software required to display engine data. I was given the impression that it would be a few more months before that software is released.
 
Worth trying your BACKUP directory ?

Hi Frank

I assume that you have a Gen 2 or 3 (Goldbox) E1 because it is in a six.

Apart from low voltage, tumbling attitude display can be an indication that the motherboard has or is failing - for which there is no solution. However it is possible that the files dealing with attitude display have become corrupted (I am not sure of exactly how many files are involved in displaying attitude but the main ones are AMISH.EXE and the calibration for the three inertial sensors in the box AMISH.DAT).

As part of update procedures it was normal to copy the entire working system on the C:\ root directory to a BACKUP directory. If you go to the command shell you should be able to see if you have such a copy. If there are only a few .DAT files you do not have a full backup, just a copy of the calibration files which is how units left the factory.

Before you scrap the box it would be worth overwriting the files in the root directory with those from your backup directory. If you do not have a full copy of the operating system it would be worth obtaining a copy of the "Update" files from about the era of your box's manufacture to go with the C:\BACKUP\AMISH.DAT file.

If you would prefer to move files around on a PC (or MAC) you can remove the CF Card from the Goldbox by taking off the cover and then the baseplate/rear wall. If it is a Gen 3 it will have ventilation holes in the box and you will be able to see the card from underneath without disassembly. Before doing anything it would be worth copying the entire C: drive (CF card) including directories, to your computer or another storage device. Be aware that the TERRAIN directory is very large so you will need up to 1 GB of space.

Do not use the BACKUP command while in the Efis command shell because you would overwrite the files that you are seeking to restore.

Good luck.

Rupert
 
Since there are so many units for sale at low prices, could you not just replace the failed unit with another used one? That would allow you to methodically decide what your ultimate upgrade path will be.

If anyone has a BMA One gold box that is working and they want to donate (or sell for a very reasonable price), I'm open to talking about it.
Click to expand...

I would advise against going this route.

1st off there are not a lot of units for sale and those that are very few are at a reasonable price.


Most of the owners who have functioning units are kweeping them till they go TU. At that point they are not even good for replacement parts for technical and calibration reasons.

Of those that are for sale most owners have not accepted the fact that the units are somewhat useless and they are way overpriced.

You must replace your unit with the same generation unit then bring the firmware up to date. Updating firmware on older units is becoming a problem and there is no tech assistance available.

Secondly most of what is for sale are the older Gen 1-3 units that have been in service for a long time and the owners are getting out before they go TU. Even then the asking prices are still unreasonably high.

You can expect to get 4-500 hours or 4-5 years out of an older unit IF IT HAS BEEN WORKING PROPERLY. Many of the Gen 1s that have been sitting on the shelf during a project are difficult to hook up and calibrate and there is now no one to help with issues as they come up. You cannot just remove and replace a unit. You will also (as mentioned previously) have to update to current firmware, a difficult task at best.

The components that most often go bad in the Gen1-Gen 3 units are the motherboard and gyro. These must be calibrated to each other and the gold box they are in, IN THE SHOP, you cannot just swap components.

Obviously you cannot get a shop calibration any more. It also appears you can no longer purchase a new subscription for database updates. Not withstanding what the BMA website says no one is answering e mails or the phone.

Do not throw good money after bad. Bite the bullet and replace the BMAs with something that fills your criteria.
 
Last edited:
Thank You Noel Simmons for Talking Me Out of BMA

3-4 years ago Noel Simmons talked me out of Blue Mountain Avionics in favor of the Grand Rapids Technologies, based on his prior experience with both companies.

Thank you Noel!


Hans
 
Coiled Magnetometer Cable

Todd,

Thanks, I'll take a look at that cable. The mags are both (for the One and the Lite) located under the fairing in the tail, just in front of the horizontal stab.

As for the voltage readings, wouldn't the unit come back if the voltages were correct, or IF there was a voltage drop and the alternator was fully functional?

Thanks again...

Cheers,
 
I have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion but I do want to say that I laugh out loud every time I see your avatar. :D

Good luck with your decision.
 
EchoCharlie1 said:
Todd,

Thanks, I'll take a look at that cable. The mags are both (for the One and the Lite) located under the fairing in the tail, just in front of the horizontal stab.

As for the voltage readings, wouldn't the unit come back if the voltages were correct, or IF there was a voltage drop and the alternator was fully functional?

Thanks again...

Cheers,
Click to expand...
The tumbling stopped on ours once the voltage and the amps to the unit were back up. But just because you are getting good voltage readings doesn't always mean you are getting enough amps. This was a very big problem in my plane, easily solved (took a whole ten minutes to fix) after thousands of dollars worth of damage. This may not be your problem but it was a problem we had.
 
MGL is very good, getting even better

I have dual MGL units, an Odyssey and an Enigma for backup.

You could probably do dual Odyssey with dual AHRS for around 9 to 10K.

Cheers.
 
Frank, I'd love to chime in. You have several options with Dynon.

1. Buy one of our low-cost EFISs, either the EFIS-D6 for $1,600 or the EFIS-D60 for $1,900. You can then combine it with a Garmin portable GPS for less than $1000, and have EFIS and mapping abilities for less than $3,000. And you will get half of the Dynon prices back when you upgrade to SkyView.

2. If you need engine monitoring, then the D180 is your best bet. But I think your estimate is off; a D180 plus harness plus engine kit is about $4,000. And, again, you can get half of that back.

3. If you upgrade to SkyView, you will have a system with the best and brightest displays and the smoothest graphics. There are many details in Dynon products which aren?t obvious except in our ease-of-use and low failure rate. But some obvious advantages of the SkyView System are redundant network and power buses, redundant ADAHRS if desired, dual joystick knobs, and a system architecture that allows easy expandability as new options and features are added. All at Dynon prices, of course. Don?t quote me, but less than half of Garmin G3X prices are a good bet.

-Robert
Dynon Marketing
 
EchoCharlie1 said:
Thanks Vern...

I plan to fly mostly VFR, but would like to use this platform to complete my IFR work and eventually have unlimited usage of the skies.

If anyone has a BMA One gold box that is working and they want to donate (or sell for a very reasonable price), I'm open to talking about it.

R/
Click to expand...

Frank,

You haven't said what other Nav / GPS units you have in the plane. If you want to fly IFR, you need to consider all of your assets. Too, you really need to put a stake in the ground on investment dollars.

The major EFIS makers are approaching near parity on price & features, with differentiations in features and price-points making the selection tougher. Really think about what features are most important to you, and how much money you are willing to part with. Once you are clear on those, your choices will be simpler.

I have a Dynon D180 / HS34 / AoA Pitot and really like them. If making the choice today, my answer might (or might not) be different. But one thing I will suggest - you said you are keeping the small Blue Mountain to drive your autopilot. You may wish to keep some money in reserve to replace that. At least two of the EFIS units have built-in AP logic, needing only servos to operate. When the little Blue Mountain goes, you could simply buy servos and perhaps a Dynon D-6 as your backup attitude indicator.
 
BMA Software Updates?

With EFIS units being not only a hardware package, but also a software package, has anyone addressed the lack of future software releases and company software support now that BMA has ceased operation?

To add to this discussion, I can address the things that are vital to my needs in an EFIS. Having owned GRT and Dynon, I can say that the Dynon is the most user friendly unit out of the box, both in installation and initial ease of use, while the GRT Horizon System pluses are the reliability, support structure and feature set. I view Dynon as a great VFR package and the GRT as a great IFR package. This is just my opinion and I welcome any others as I too am always learning. The MGL product is interesting to me for the feature set and the autopilot feature. I agree having the AP separate is a plus in the chance that the EFIS goes TU, but an $1800 AP add on feature for the MGL is a nice and affordable feature if it functions as I hope it will.

FWIW
 
Dave Cole said:
The Dynon D180 is an attractive all-in-one system with an EFIS and EMS in one box, plus the capability to drive a Dynon autopilot servo. However, it will not drive an external autopilot, so if you loose the EFIS, you loose the autopilot too. I personally want the autopilot to be available if the EFIS goes down.
Click to expand...

May I also mention that a whole second D10A and two servos costs only $3700, which is what you would pay for just a standalone competitive AP, but in this case you get a whole backup EFIS. Just because you can drive the Dynon AP from a single EFIS and save a ton of money doesn't mean you can't buy a second EFIS as a backup without taking a price hit.
 
Another Datapoint from Originator of this Thread

For further clarification:

This RV-6 is equipped with a Garmin SL-30 Nav/Com; GPS-496; Microair Transponder and Comm; Blue Mountain Lite (backup EFIS) and Blue Mountain A/P. It has an O-320 (carb engine) with CS prop.

I am looking to put in an Air-Gizmo for the 496 and possibly add a Garmin GTX-330 for traffic.

DYNON/GRT/MGL: You've all quoted (or gave ballpark figures) systems that could work. With the knowledge you have here, NOW what would you recommend? Again, I wish to equip for light-IFR (only when necessary), but living in FL, mostly VFR travel.

A question for the Dynon, GRT, MGL folks (anyone else can chime in here) is whether or not I have to purchase another engine harness setup? With the Blue Mountain One setup and engine monitoring system, do I still need to purchase the entire engine management system, or will any of those EFISs support what I already have (EGT/CHT probes, oil temp/press transducers, tach sensor, etc.)?

The BMA One was a great setup, but the sensitivity of this system, with the logistics of maintaining it, was not the best answer for an experimental aircraft (i.e., the do-it-yourselfer).

Thanks again for all the input thus far. It has ALL been informative and useful.

I still have a little time to decide, but will most likely make a final decision within a month or two.

Regards,
 
EchoCharlie1 said:
For further clarification:

This RV-6 is equipped with a Garmin SL-30 Nav/Com; GPS-496; Microair Transponder and Comm; Blue Mountain Lite (backup EFIS) and Blue Mountain A/P. It has an O-320 (carb engine) with CS prop.

I am looking to put in an Air-Gizmo for the 496 and possibly add a Garmin GTX-330 for traffic.

DYNON/GRT/MGL: You've all quoted (or gave ballpark figures) systems that could work. With the knowledge you have here, NOW what would you recommend? Again, I wish to equip for light-IFR (only when necessary), but living in FL, mostly VFR travel.

A question for the Dynon, GRT, MGL folks (anyone else can chime in here) is whether or not I have to purchase another engine harness setup? With the Blue Mountain One setup and engine monitoring system, do I still need to purchase the entire engine management system, or will any of those EFISs support what I already have (EGT/CHT probes, oil temp/press transducers, tach sensor, etc.)?
(snip)
Click to expand...

I suspect there are a lot of people with similar setups. The SL-30 because of its relatively unique serial interface (which works with most of the EFIS systems AFAIK) and the Gramin handheld.

The BMA engine sensors varied a little through generations (the early systems could use almost anything, the engine pod had more standardization/less choice). I would think most of the sensors would carry over, but would love to see definitive answers.

AFAIK, the BMA sensors were:

CHT.....Aerosance resistive "bayonet" types
EGT.....Type "K" thermocouples
pressure sensors (oil, fuel pressure) VDO 0-100 psi
oil temp: VDO
OAT Analog devices AD22100
Fuel flow: Floscan (the same one everybody uses I think)
Magnetometer...Honeywell HMR2300 on early units, later (manufactured in house) I think emulated the honeywell's output.
GPS antenna...5v active antenna, mutiple sources, pretty generic. BNC connectors early, SMB (F) connector on later units
Fuel level: BMA had capacitance sensors, or could use Van's resistive senders
Tach: various, can use E/Pmag signal, lightspeed or any 1,2 or pulse per rev from about 5 to 12 v.

My guess is that most of these would plug right into any of the engine sensor packages. MGL seems (from a cursory scan of the manuals) to be the most flexible. The GPS antenna plugs right into a Garmin unit if you put the right (BNC) connector on it.

The magnetometer I don't know about. I know (because a friend went through this) that the dynon can't use the honeywell but I would tentatively guess the MGL could use it.

I would welcome any real information, especially from the vendors. Currently I have a fully functional system, but at some point I'll need to channge. I would love to minimize the damage and reuse as many sensors as possible.
 
Most should work fine with MGL

EchoCharlie1 said:
For further clarification:

A question for the Dynon, GRT, MGL folks (anyone else can chime in here) is whether or not I have to purchase another engine harness setup? With the Blue Mountain One setup and engine monitoring system, do I still need to purchase the entire engine management system, or will any of those EFISs support what I already have (EGT/CHT probes, oil temp/press transducers, tach sensor, etc.)?
Regards,
Click to expand...

The MGL Efis supports most common sensors "out of the box". I reused all my probes, egt, cht, oil pressure, temp, etc when I did my upgrade.

The MGL also supports the SL30 with frequency switching and an HSI display for the NAV.
 
N131RV said:
The MGL Efis supports most common sensors "out of the box". I reused all my probes, egt, cht, oil pressure, temp, etc when I did my upgrade.

The MGL also supports the SL30 with frequency switching and an HSI display for the NAV.
Click to expand...

And don't forget MGL has a built in GPS with moving map, terrain, and Highway In The Sky standard. Another good point about the MGL is that you use a little box called RDAC which you mount on the firewall. You hook up all your engine sensors there and run one cable back to the EFIS. It also has a built in autopilot capability, just add a couple of Trio servos. I don't know if MGL supports the Blue Mountain servos. Very soon a new processor for the Odyssey and Voyager will be available which improves the graphics. Here is a post from the company with a picture of the new graphics http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=45763&highlight=mgl168
 
I'll post a few thoughts:

1. If your not looking for synthetic vision, 430W integration, trutrak autopilot.... (basically tightly integrated IFR gear) then I would look at the MGL/Dynon/GRT sport, and I don't think it matters which one you get as long as you get good support.

2. If your looking for synthetic vision, 430W integration, geo-referenced plates, trutrak integration..... then look at the GRT HX or AFS.

The reason I say this is because with basic requirements, just about anything will work, but once you start wanting lots of integration and high end features then you should stick with GRT or AFS because of the following reasons:

*NOTE* these things are based on my research and are subject to changes or just plain be wrong. If they are please correct me:

1. The dynon box can't output to an external autopilot which means that you can't use the heading bug to control the autopilot. If you run dynon, your basically stuck with their autopilot or no integration.

2. The MGL's 430W integration is pretty new. Last time I checked it was still being developed.

3. The GRT and AFT both have 430/trurak integration and have had it for a while and it's mature and ready to go.

4. The trutrak autopilots seem to perform the best.

Out of all of those, I ordered an AFS. For me it came down to the hardware. I'm sure the GRT would have been fine, but I just liked the AFS better.

schu
 
This post posted today suggests that EFIS/AP integration with 430W may soon (weeks) be irrelevant - TT will have it's own 430W integration. It remains to be seen if it will also accept OBS inputs from, say, the Dynon D180. If it does, then minus the synthetic vision and several thousand dollars that puts Dynon back in the running.

TruTrak, we are waiting to hear more from you on this!

:D
 
EFIS Quandary

<<The Dynon D180 is an attractive all-in-one system with an EFIS and EMS in one box, plus the capability to drive a Dynon autopilot servo. >>

And now, for a completely biased opinion, I find it hard to beat the Dynon. I haven't flown mine yet (D-180), but the factory support is excellent, the unit is relatively easy to install and wire, and nobody can touch their price. Van's chose the Dynon for the RV-12 for a reason, too.

As far as the autopilot goes, the software is built into every unit, all you have to add are the servos. Your GPS will plug into the Dynon and you have a fully coupled autopilot for another $1500 or thereabouts (the cost of the servos).

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
Separate the EFIS and Autopilot

You need to think about failure modes when you are IFR. If the EFIS dumps, what is your backup? For me, it is the autopilot. If the autopilot is integrated into the EFIS, you lose both when the EFIS dumps.

P.S. I have AFS 3500 and TT A/P, a TT ADI for horizon backup. I am very happy with the setup, and regularly fly IFR with it.
 
I second the idea of what is that you are trying to get out of this. I did a long research before I got my setup and it seemed there were a few that stood out on top. As most have mentioned and Dynon, GRT and AFS are the top brands. I have heard a lot of good things about Dynon (from friends who has them) but it is rather limited and its best for VFR use. I have GRT with TT A/P and ADI, hooked up to 430. The performance, capability and functionality is absolutely great. And support has been next to none. I am using them for IFR frequently.

Mehrdad
RV7A
 
Dynon Support

You can spend more money, but you won't beat the friendly, knowledgeable support staff at Dynon, the value of their equipment for the price, or their 3 year no hassle warranty.
 
EchoCharlie1 said:
For further clarification:

This RV-6 is equipped with a Garmin SL-30 Nav/Com; GPS-496; Microair Transponder and Comm; Blue Mountain Lite (backup EFIS) and Blue Mountain A/P. It has an O-320 (carb engine) with CS prop.
Click to expand...

Perfect level-set. So, as another poster asked - do you feel synthetic vision is critical? What is your overall goal - minimize cost, or meet a budget while maximizing features?

You've already stated you are going to keep the BM EFIS Lite & AP. That actually opens up a couple of options for you (or alternatively,takes away a couple of possible objections). One - MGL will have an AP SOME DAY. It supports both SL30 and 496 out of the box today, and has synthetic vision as a bonus. Two - Dynon will get their AP right, and it's ok for most right now. Start there today, and when the Blue Mountain goes all you need are servos and a replacement backup EFIS (take your pick).

I am looking to put in an Air-Gizmo for the 496 and possibly add a Garmin GTX-330 for traffic.
Click to expand...

To display that you need an EFIS with the capability of displaying that info. That rules out current gen Dynon (but not SkyView).

Are you really sure you want to go there? ADS-B is coming quickly, and if you want traffic capability I would design around that rather than a straight Mode-S transponder. ADS-B will also give you weather and TFRs for free...

Well, that's not really an answer for you but provides a couple of additional data points. My recommendation is always the same - start with a budget and figure out what you can live with, factoring in future upgradability.
 
Thanks to all the GREAT recommendations

Breister, et. al.,

Thank you all for your insights, recommendations, and thought-prevoking technical data.

Now, as I compile, digest and sort (yeah, a typical engineer)...I will look to get the best bang for the buck to serve the mission that best suits my needs with expandability and flexibility, not to mention, reliability and redundancy.

There are a lot of great products, but nothing is perfect, so I have to also determine what is acceptable in a system that has shortcomings.

As an update...right now, my BMA One is with the developer (Greg) and I hope that he can bring her back to life. If not, I will be contacting several vendors for a bid to provide a replacement system. ;)

Best regards to all...and again, thank you for your insight.

Cheers,
Frank
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top