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FLIR Display on EFIS

L

LarryT

Well Known Member
FLIR introduced an experimental Forward Looking Infra-Red vision system at Oshkosh for $3500.

Would it be possible to display the IR image as the background over which the routine data items were superimposed on an EFIS? (I download aerial photos at work over which I superimpose auto collision reconstruction animations, perhaps there are some similarities?) In other words it would be a real "heads up" display as opposed to "synthetic vision."

I am a VFR pilot and don't believe that I could ever stay proficient enough to truly have confidence in the IFR environment.

Rather than spending beaucoup bucks on IFR training, equipping the aircraft for IFR flight and synthetic vision, perhaps a system with the FLIR and XM weather would be less expensive for someone in my situation. A moving map with topo is all one needs for VFR. Also no charts or databases to update with FLIR - not to mention objects on the runway that don't show up in the database.

Larry
 
MGL showed this at Osh

LarryT said:
Would it be possible to display the IR image as the background over which the routine data items were superimposed on an EFIS?
Click to expand...

Hi Larry,

MGL showed this very nice feature with their EFIS. They had different kinds of cameras, IR or normal and it was really impressive to see how useful it could be in some situations (like seeing straight forward during taxi in a taildragger).
 
FLIR is not X-Ray Vision

While FLIR is a nice tool, it does have its limitations. Clouds are not completely transparent to heat. If you're really in the weather, you'd be lucky to see heat from a jet engine a mile away. You'll likely have nothing to look at when you're at cruise altitude. If you do manage to get close enough to a runway for FLIR to be useful, there are other environmental phenomena that can degrade the image. FLIR might buy you a few hundred feet, or an extra half mile of vis, but I wouldn't consider it a substitute for synthetic vision or an instrument approach.

FLIR is a nice tool, but I think you could easily get yourself into a lot of trouble if you're not equipped for and proficient in instrument flight (not to mention the legal issues).

My .02,
Paige
 
Watch the low vis video on that site

This is high end stuff, but here's what's happening in the corporate world.
http://www.gulfstream.com/gulfstreamevs/#
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Take a look at the low vis video. With the EVS you can see runway lights at ~100'. Ask yourself how you're going to get to 100' over the runway in a solid cloud deck. I'm not saying it isn't useful, I'm just saying it isn't a substitute for IFR capability.

Paige
 
FLIR limitations

FLIR is a nice tool, but I think you could easily get yourself into a lot of trouble if you're not equipped for and proficient in instrument flight (not to mention the legal issues).

I'm mostly a lurker now, but afraid I'd have to agree with the above comments. I'm a former AH-64A Apache helicopter driver, and suffice to say that IR and Near IR vision systems require considerable schooling and practice to achieve proficiency, understand environmental limitations, etc..

FLIR is a valuable complementary tool, but get an instrument rating and required equipment if you plan to fly IFR.
 
PaigeHoffart said:
FLIR might buy you a few hundred feet, or an extra half mile of vis, but I wouldn't consider it a substitute for synthetic vision or an instrument approach.

FLIR is a nice tool, but I think you could easily get yourself into a lot of trouble if you're not equipped for and proficient in instrument flight (not to mention the legal issues).
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand these comments. The implication from the above statement is that synthetic vision (SVS) is equivalent to an instrument approach or offers better advantage than enhanced vision (EVS). Also, I'm not sure what legal issues are eluded to.

I don't think anyone is suggesting relying on EVS primarily on an IFR flight. Nor will one typically need EVS or SVS during the cruise phase of flight. At cruise altitude on an IFR flight in IMC, SVS and EVS will provide you with a nice view of what you are flying over, an additional "warm an fuzzy" for the IMC uncomfortable.

"A few hundred feet" of additional vision will make a huge difference however when there is a deer, vehicle or other item on the runway. Will synthetic vision show you that deer? As I had to remind an individual recently, runway lights are primarily to get the pilot aligned with the runway, NOT to illuminate what is ON the runway.

The idea of weaving in and out of towers or mountains using SVS or EVS is UNTHINKABLE for anything but an EMERGENCY in the US airspace system. MEA, MOCA Take-Off minimums (Obstacle) Departure procedures & Instrument approach procedures are tried & true tools designed to ensure obstacle clearances. If pilots are now going to "cobble" together their own Obstacle DPs, routes and Approach Procedures using SVS, this is a recipe for disaster. Having obstruction depicted on your instrument can be of value, however if you are actually relying on SVS, then something is clearly already gone wrong--i.e. the procedures are not followed.

It is just a matter of time before the first lawsuit is filed where some pilot comes to grief navigating under a layer of scud using their SVS then runs into some object that was not in their out of date terrain database.

Between the two systems, personally I would pay for one but not the other.

my $0.02.
 
There is FLIR and there is FLIR.
Firstly, there are cameras that combine visual spectra with some part of the IR spectra leading to enhanced vision.
Then there are real expensive IR cameras with very good sensitivity - these would be cooled using liquid nitrogen to get the CCD into a state where it generates little thermal noise.
There are cameras with IR wavelengths that can give you 100's of feet of near perfect vision in dense fog.
Very slowly prices are coming down and the need for cooling is getting a little less. New generation IR cameras can give acceptable performance at room-temperature - but at a price and it is still nowhere as good as a cooled camera.
At this point (and say with about a $10.000 pricetag) you can find cameras that are indeed useful and can make the difference between seeing something and seeing nothing - but they are not (yet) a miracle solution.

I'd like to say - "watch this space", things are not standing still and cameras built into some military applications are yesterdays technology (often still based on photo-multiplier tubes).

While you wait, fit some cheap bullet cameras to our EFIS (you can connect up to 4) and use them as "synthetic vision" replacement or enhancement (i.e the image is forward looking and forms part of the AHRS), fit a nice one as "rear view mirror" so you can see your buddies sneaking up to you, the forward vision camera doubles as taxi view if you have a tail dragger (that alone is not a bad application). Fit one to your tail, looking forward - gives a nice view on approach (just for kicks).
If you are into survey or similar work, fit a camera pointing straight down so you can see exactly what landmark you are over (if you are staight and level of course).
As the camera image forms a normal "screen item" as we like to call these things, it means you can create your own screens with them. Size the video image any way you want, draw a target image ontop of the video for your next bomb run, you can do almost anything you like, enough to keep you entertained until a cheap (and good) IR camera arrives.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
w1curtis said:
Huh?

Follow the procedures! If none exist, why would you be "100' over the runway in a solid cloud deck?"
Click to expand...

This thread is drifting a bit, but I doubt an RV is going to be CAT II ILS certified...

For CAT I ILS operations, FAR 91.175 applies. Does a FLIR system satisfy the "Distinctly Visible" requirement? :eek:

As for Synthetic vision vs. FLIR vs. IFR procedure, obviously we're in agreement that utilizing proper IFR procedures is the only way to operate. Synthetic vision will give you a guaranteed picture of charted terrain as far as you want, FLIR in-flight visibility can go from 20 miles on a clear day to less than a mile for a hot target in the soup. Sure it might also give you a view of the uncharted billy goat, but it's a lot less likely to give you a good view of upcoming terrain in the weather than synthetic vision.

I will agree that one of the better uses of FLIR is in clearing the runway for traffic, or wildlife.

FWIW,
Paige
 
I know that the OP Technologies EFIS system will supposedly display a FLIR image. I have also heard and seen that their displays are not the greatest either.
 
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GRT had a FLIR camera in their booth at OSH... probably using same video input that the HX model has.. (which they demoed back at SnF with a regular cam)...
 
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