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GDL 50 or aera 796 as position source

Rakan

Active Member
Hello every one ...
As you all know, Garmin GDL 50 and aera 796 both includes a built-in WAAS GPS receiver .
my question is, can I use GDL 50 or aera 796 as position source to be connected (bare wire) to Garmin GTX 330ES and satisfy ADS-b out 2020 mandate?

thanks in advance ...
Rakan
 
Hello every one ...
As you all know, Garmin GDL 50 and aera 796 both includes a built-in WAAS GPS receiver .
my question is, can I use GDL 50 or aera 796 as position source to be connected (bare wire) to Garmin GTX 330ES and satisfy ADS-b out 2020 mandate?

thanks in advance ...
Rakan


My understanding is that you cannot use position source from any portable device, WAAS or not. I would love someone to find a loop hole and prove me wrong because I would like to that in another plane.
 
Thanks for the feedback ...
.. the thing is : I am driving the TruTrak autopilot solely on a feed from an older garmin 496 gps where it execute a flight plane from several way points very nicely ... so whey not the ES transponder ... (thinking out load) :confused:
 
Hello every one ...
As you all know, Garmin GDL 50 and aera 796 both includes a built-in WAAS GPS receiver .
my question is, can I use GDL 50 or aera 796 as position source to be connected (bare wire) to Garmin GTX 330ES and satisfy ADS-b out 2020 mandate?

thanks in advance ...
Rakan

Hey Rakan,

As other people have stated neither of these units will work as an ADS-B position source as they are not compliant. You will need to have a compliant GPS position source that is capable of outputting the "ADS-B+" RS-232 format, such as a GPS-20A in a G3X system, to make your system ADS-B complaint. What other avionics do you have in your aircraft?
 
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The quote below is stolen from a previous post by "g3xpert":
"Regarding the GPS source for ADS-B, ... GPS receivers used for ADS-B compliance in EAB aircraft have to meet the requirements of TSO-C146d."​
The GDL 50 and Aera 796 built-in WAAS GPS receivers don't meet that spec.

Trying to find out what is TSO-C146d:
Stand-Alone Airborne Navigation Equipment Using The Global Positioning System Augmented By The Satellite Based Augmentation System (SBAS) :confused:

right :)
 
Hey Rakan,

As other people have stated neither of these units will work as an ADS-B position source as they are not compliant. You will need to have a compliant GPS position source that is capable of outputting the "ADS-B+" RS-232 format, such as a GPS-20A in a G3X system, to make your system ADS-B complaint. What other avionics do you have in your aircraft?

thanks ....
but is the G3X a must ... or I can do without it .. by connecting pin 5 & 6 in A20 to pin 22 & 51 in the gtx330ES directly :)
 
thanks ....
but is the G3X a must ... or I can do without it .. by connecting pin 5 & 6 in A20 to pin 22 & 51 in the gtx330ES directly :)

Hey Rakan,

Unfortunately, The GPS-20A is a subcomponent of the G3X EFIS system and requires a G3X to operate. If you have a mode S transponder, but do not have an EFIS system, there are not a lot of upgrade paths to become ADS-B compliant. To get a WAAS GPS position you will need to add something like a GPS-175, replace the transponder with a Stratus ESG/Garmin GTX-335 with GPS, or add a Uavionix TailBeacon. I do not have a lot of experience with Uavionics products, so I am not 100% sure it will work for your installation, but the other solutions I listed are a sure thing.
 
Hey Rakan,

Unfortunately, The GPS-20A is a subcomponent of the G3X EFIS system and requires a G3X to operate. If you have a mode S transponder, but do not have an EFIS system, there are not a lot of upgrade paths to become ADS-B compliant. To get a WAAS GPS position you will need to add something like a GPS-175, replace the transponder with a Stratus ESG/Garmin GTX-335 with GPS, or add a Uavionix TailBeacon. I do not have a lot of experience with Uavionics products, so I am not 100% sure it will work for your installation, but the other solutions I listed are a sure thing.

thanks Joshua for the reply ... I got the GTX330ES some time ago .. where I paid over $2k used got used freeflight 1201 to find out the 1201 needs to be updated to 310 software which would cost $750+ SH :eek::eek:... sold the 1201 to be told later by the Mechanic that A20 will 100% work .. not mentioning anything about having G3X EFIS :confused:
 
Hey Rakan,

Unfortunately, The GPS-20A is a subcomponent of the G3X EFIS system and requires a G3X to operate. If you have a mode S transponder, but do not have an EFIS system, there are not a lot of upgrade paths to become ADS-B compliant. To get a WAAS GPS position you will need to add something like a GPS-175, replace the transponder with a Stratus ESG/Garmin GTX-335 with GPS, or add a Uavionix TailBeacon. I do not have a lot of experience with Uavionics products, so I am not 100% sure it will work for your installation, but the other solutions I listed are a sure thing.
Hello Joshua,

The GPS 20A can be installed as a standalone unit in an aircraft with no G3X or G3X Touch system. While it is probably true that the GPS 20A is most often installed in combination with a G3X/G3X Touch with a CAN bus interface, this is not required.

If you just add power/ground, the GPS 20A will start working and output the ADS-B+ data on the serial port for the GTX 330ES to use.

Page 27-30 of the Rev. AL G3X Installation Manual shows how to wire up a GPS 20A to a GTX 330ES.

Steve
 
Hello Joshua,

The GPS 20A can be installed as a standalone unit in an aircraft with no G3X or G3X Touch system. While it is probably true that the GPS 20A is most often installed in combination with a G3X/G3X Touch with a CAN bus interface, this is not required.

If you just add power/ground, the GPS 20A will start working and output the ADS-B+ data on the serial port for the GTX 330ES to use.

Page 27-30 of the Rev. AL G3X Installation Manual shows how to wire up a GPS 20A to a GTX 330ES.

Steve

Thanks Steve ... for the info and the manual..
but could you please explain why there is a loop on both pin 22 (RS-232 IN 1) and 51 (signal ground) ... I do not get it :confused: (sorry try to learn things)

d.php
 
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Rakan. That "loop" in the diagram indicates that the wire is shielded. It is a single conductor shielded wire with the wire going to pin 22. So the loop is the end of the shielding. The shielding (loop) is then shown to connect to both airframe ground and pin 51 which is the RS-232 signal ground. In most all Garmin manuals there is a section with wiring diagrams and the initial page or two of that section defines these types of symbols.

So in your diagram referenced, the person making the wire harness would install a solder sleeve (sometimes called a solder splice or an environmental splice) over a small section of exposed shield along with two small wires under the solder area and use a heat gun to heat shrink the splice and then melt the solder so it flows into the shielding and two jumper wire ends. Then one of the jumpers would get a contact crimped on and inserted into position 51 of that connector. The other jumper would go to a local airframe ground.

An alternative to a solder splice would be to conventionally solder the exposed shielding to the two jumpers and then cover the area with a section of heat shrink. More work than a solder splice but a much cheaper way to accomplish the same task without needing to stock the exotic solder splice. Personally I prefer solder splices and they are becoming more common on the consumer market (Amazon, eBay etc...).

Also common with shielding is to have it connect to the backshell of the connector rather than an airframe ground. In that case the little ground symbol in your diagram would be replaced by a traingle with the letter "S" in it. This S triangle is actually more common than the shown airframe ground symbol.

Here is a picture of a nicely done install on the SteinAir web site of what those grounding connector jumpers, or shield drains, look like. They are the green wires terminating into the red ring terminals attached to the Garmin connector backshells:

GULO5Dp.jpg


(ref: if Stein wants me to remove that screenshot of their nice work which is their photo I will immediately upon request)

With the understanding that the following might be TMI, it also helps in the understanding of shields. So here are the rules of thumb to remember with respect to shielded wiring:

1.) If the shielded wire is for audio circuits the shielding should only be connected (grounded/bonded) at one end. Usually at the chasis of the source, like an audio panel, intercom or radio. This rule applies to headphone jacks, music input jacks and any other audio inputs like warnings from devices. This rule is also why we use shielded shoulder washers on headphone jacks so their barrels don't connect to the airframe. By only bonding one end of the shielding the audio is protected and clear of interference. If both ends of the shielding were bonded the audio ground could travel through the airframe rather than the intended grounding wire in the shield and cause audio noise and interference. This is what is commonly referred to as an audio "ground loop" (unfortunate vernacular since as pilots we cringe when we hear those same two words with a completely different meaning).

2.) If the shielded wire is for a data circuit like RS-232, ARINC 429, TMap, CANbus, or other digital data then the shielding should be connected (bonded/grounded) at both ends. This shields the data stream in the wires from noise and interference. No ground loop worries.

These are basic rules of thumb and the manufacturers installation instructions specific to any device should be followed even if they depart from these general rules.
 
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Unless you already own a GPS 20a why not just buy a uAvionix skyFYX WASS GPS which is cheaper and works great?
 
Rakan. That "loop" in the diagram indicates that the wire is shielded. It is a single conductor shielded wire with the wire going to pin 22. So the loop is the end of the shielding. The shielding (loop) is then shown to connect to both airframe ground and pin 51 which is the RS-232 signal ground. In most all Garmin manuals there is a section with wiring diagrams and the initial page or two of that section defines these types of symbols.

So in your diagram referenced, the person making the wire harness would install a solder sleeve (sometimes called a solder splice or an environmental splice) over a small section of exposed shield along with two small wires under the solder area and use a heat gun to heat shrink the splice and then melt the solder so it flows into the shielding and two jumper wire ends. Then one of the jumpers would get a contact crimped on and inserted into position 51 of that connector. The other jumper would go to a local airframe ground.

An alternative to a solder splice would be to conventionally solder the exposed shielding to the two jumpers and then cover the area with a section of heat shrink. More work than a solder splice but a much cheaper way to accomplish the same task without needing to stock the exotic solder splice. Personally I prefer solder splices and they are becoming more common on the consumer market (Amazon, eBay etc...).

Also common with shielding is to have it connect to the backshell of the connector rather than an airframe ground. In that case the little ground symbol in your diagram would be replaced by a traingle with the letter "S" in it. This S triangle is actually more common than the shown airframe ground symbol.

Here is a picture of a nicely done install on the SteinAir web site of what those grounding connector jumpers, or shield drains, look like. They are the green wires terminating into the red ring terminals attached to the Garmin connector backshells:

GULO5Dp.jpg


(ref: if Stein wants me to remove that screenshot of their nice work which is their photo I will immediately upon request)

With the understanding that the following might be TMI, it also helps in the understanding of shields. So here are the rules of thumb to remember with respect to shielded wiring:

1.) If the shielded wire is for audio circuits the shielding should only be connected (grounded/bonded) at one end. Usually at the chasis of the source, like an audio panel, intercom or radio. This rule applies to headphone jacks, music input jacks and any other audio inputs like warnings from devices. This rule is also why we use shielded shoulder washers on headphone jacks so their barrels don't connect to the airframe. By only bonding one end of the shielding the audio is protected and clear of interference. If both ends of the shielding were bonded the audio ground could travel through the airframe rather than the intended grounding wire in the shield and cause audio noise and interference. This is what is commonly referred to as an audio "ground loop" (unfortunate vernacular since as pilots we cringe when we hear those same two words with a completely different meaning).

2.) If the shielded wire is for a data circuit like RS-232, ARINC 429, TMap, CANbus, or other digital data then the shielding should be connected (bonded/grounded) at both ends. This shields the data stream in the wires from noise and interference. No ground loop worries.

These are basic rules of thumb and the manufacturers installation instructions specific to any device should be followed even if they depart from these general rules.

thanks so much... for me, this is a great info ..
so both wires going to pin 22 and pin 51 are shielded single wire and the shield on both wires are looped by either conventional solder or solder splice and then both attached to the unit frame (ground) which in it's self grounded to aircraft chasis.... did I get it right.:)

P.S. with your help I found this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW2esD1NIa8
 
No. There is only one single-conductor shielded wire total. The actual wire goes to pin 22. The outside shielding on that same shielded wire is then used for both pin 51 AND airframe ground.
 
Unless you already own a GPS 20a why not just buy a uAvionix skyFYX WASS GPS which is cheaper and works great?

No i have not bought The 20A yet.

good to know about uAvionix skyFYX WASS GPS, but does it support Garmin GTX330ES protocols!
 
No. There is only one single-conductor shielded wire total. The actual wire goes to pin 22. The outside shielding on that same shielded wire is then used for both pin 51 AND airframe ground.

thanks so much for the explanation and the good Video .. jliltd you are the Man
 
No i have not bought The 20A yet.

good to know about uAvionix skyFYX WASS GPS, but does it support Garmin GTX330ES protocols!

I did contact uAvionix:

thier Answer:
The skyFYX-EXT is the WAAS GPS that feeds the GPS signal to the EchoUAT. It does not send a compatible signal to the GTX-330 for the ES GPS requirement. You would need to buy a Garmin WAAS GPS to use the 330ES with.
 
I did contact uAvionix:

thier Answer:
The skyFYX-EXT is the WAAS GPS that feeds the GPS signal to the EchoUAT. It does not send a compatible signal to the GTX-330 for the ES GPS requirement. You would need to buy a Garmin WAAS GPS to use the 330ES with.

Typical monopolistic thinking. That's why even though I've owned Garmin products for many decades I try to stay away from them as much as possible.
 
Typical monopolistic thinking. That's why even though I've owned Garmin products for many decades I try to stay away from them as much as possible.

true ... but to be fare, they are the best.
I would be more confident having Garmin avionics on my plane instrument panel :), and I know for a fact Sling aircraft in South Africa they scrubbed MGL avionics from their new planes and replaced it with garmin GX3 based sys. due to problems reported by owners of Sling 2 which was equipped with MGL

you all have a good day :)
 
true ... but to be fare, they are the best.
I would be more confident having Garmin avionics on my plane instrument panel :), and I know for a fact Sling aircraft in South Africa they scrubbed MGL avionics from their new planes and replaced it with garmin GX3 based sys. due to problems reported by owners of Sling 2 which was equipped with MGL

you all have a good day :)

Riyadh !! I lived there and in Jeddah for over a year. Also in Shemaisi and for a couple of months up in the mountains in Al Hamana. I used to fly a couple of the rescue helicopters. I even got scolded once by ATC for flying over Mecca, but I was flying a V-VIP so he grabbed my phone and scolded the controller back !!





 
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Riyadh !! I lived there and in Jeddah for over a year. Also in Shemaisi and for a couple of months up in the mountains in Al Hamana. I used to fly a couple of the rescue helicopters. I even got scolded once by ATC for flying over Mecca, but I was flying a V-VIP so he grabbed my phone and scolded the controller back !!






Yes sir, I am Here in Riyadh under quarantine:mad:
good to hear from some one who experienced the desert summer heat:) ... we hardly fly during the summer time (AS GA) due to high temp .. so for us now days is the best time for flying .. but with movement restriction we all stuck at home monitoring https://opensky-network.org/ :cool:

Pilot135pd,
I hope you did enjoy your stay in Saudi ..
 
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