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Titan 409+EFII

bret

Well Known Member
Saw this at the Reno air races yesterday. He was VERRY fast!

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50 more cubes than most RVs, EFI and Kevin knows his way around the course. Hard combination to beat with another 4 cylinder RV. Watch the vids to see how smoothly Kevin flies- no loss of momentum or wasted motion. Kevin is a very experienced and talented stick. Glad he is doing so well with the -8.

Kudos to Kevin, Robert and the rest of the Titan crew.
 
Unfortunately dead last in Bronze race behind Rockets and some plastic...!

Well ya. That's like being surprised a Cirrus lost in a race to rare bear and an F-18. No RV-8 will ever catch even the slowest Legacy, but look at his speed compare to other 8's and wow.
 
Well ya. That's like being surprised a Cirrus lost in a race to rare bear and an F-18. No RV-8 will ever catch even the slowest Legacy, but look at his speed compare to other 8's and wow.

With all due respect, 222 is indeed fast given the conditions...but it's a whopping 3 mph up on Charlie Greer's RV Blue class RV-6, and maybe not even that much on Stan Sutterfield when you factor out a pylon cut penalty.
 
Charlie Greer has the fastest 6 in SARL I believe. Probably has some aero tweaks the others don't and a pretty strong engine, refined over time. Charlie was equally impressive at Reno.

Dave Anders' RV4 would wax both of these planes by a substantial margin. A bunch of little aero tweaks can make a big, big difference.
 
With all due respect, 222 is indeed fast given the conditions...but it's a whopping 3 mph up on Charlie Greer's RV Blue class RV-6, and maybe not even that much on Stan Sutterfield when you factor out a pylon cut penalty.


Right... And that's racing. Not comparing Kevin's finish to a bunch of Rockets and glass.
 
Right... And that's racing. Not comparing Kevin's finish to a bunch of Rockets and glass.

Point is, 3 mph faster than the other 4-cyl RV's is not "wow" material. And it's not as fast as Jason Rovey's -8 last year.

LaVelle's Glasair III finished 64 mph faster than 2nd place (also a Glasair III), over 100 mph faster than all but three other finishers, and 140 mph faster than the third Glasair III.

Wow!
 
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Point is, 3 mph faster than the other 4-cyl RV's is not "wow" material. And it's not as fast as Jason Rovey's -8 last year.

LaVelle's Glasair III finished 64 mph faster than 2nd place (also a Glasair III), over 100 mph faster than all but three other finishers, and 140 mph faster than the third Glasair III.

Wow!

2015 should see Mike Dacey's new Venture back along with Kevin's NXT, hopefully to give Jeff some serious competition.
 
It was exciting to see so many RV's in the races this year, and interesting to note how close the RV-8's were in qualifying. Unofrtuantely, early in the week, this sort of made it a formation demostration for the specatators - no one of that crowd could get a distinct advantage.

In Saturday's Medallion, however, I was amazed to see the change in Kevin's plane - he was distinctly faster than he'd been. Asking around, I found out that he had changed his prop - and that made the difference.
 
I would rather watch a close race. The Rockets made a great race of it Friday. I missed Saturdays race.

Watching Jeff's Glasair is fun for a few laps but watching him lap second place is just not a good race to watch.

Much like Hinton toying with the Yak in Unlimited Gold. I think he kept it slow to make the race seem better. Plus maybe to save an engine. :)
 
Charlie Greer has the fastest 6 in SARL I believe.

I think the stats say he raced it once in SARL, and there appear to be several faster Blues. Charlie is a Reno rookie too. Nice job.

Dave Anders' RV4 would wax both of these planes by a substantial margin. A bunch of little aero tweaks can make a big, big difference.

You mean like take the nosewheel off Sutterfield's 8A? ;)

I'm kidding. I know Kevin was flying around with boarding step, for example

Asking around, I found out that he (Kevin) had changed his prop - and that made the difference.

From MT to ?
 
I would rather watch a close race. The Rockets made a great race of it Friday. I missed Saturdays race.

I like a close race too - but when everyone is evenly matched flat out, they just are able to stay in position, not make passes. Sort of like restrictor plate racing in NASCAR....
 
Point is, 3 mph faster than the other 4-cyl RV's is not "wow" material. And it's not as fast as Jason Rovey's -8 last year.

LaVelle's Glasair III finished 64 mph faster than 2nd place (also a Glasair III), over 100 mph faster than all but three other finishers, and 140 mph faster than the third Glasair III.

Wow!

Current conditions make all the difference - you can't really compare one years results to another unless you've got the same DA, temperature and winds.

Granted, those are some big deltas, but on any given Sunday...
 
Asking around, I found out that he had changed his prop - and that made the difference.

Went from a 3 blade to a 2 blade Hartzell (old style airfoil) prop. Reportedly gained 7 knots. :eek: still couldn't beat the 409 Varisleazy in the final division race.

Clipped wing RV-8? I wonder what cutting the wings back to the next rib would do?
 
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Something needs to be done. Hard for any RV or Rocket to compete against a 650hp Mustang. :cool:

The RVs are not really competing against the high powered stuff in Sport Class. More RVs can only help the sport even if it's a bit of a procession.
 
Close speed : more fun!


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Everyone elses speeds were consistent race to race. The Hartzell made the difference. Kevin would NEVER have put the Hartzell on if it didn't. Whats amazing is that this is a BONE STOCK RV 8, I was admiring what hadn't been done. Stock cowl, 4 into 4 exhaust, no taping, speed tricks... nothing. Can you imagine a 7497 or WhirlWind prop on that beast?

Also, FWIW Charlie Greer is a 'rookie' in Sport, but knows his way around the course from YEARS in F1 and Biplane. He's no rookie :), and his -6 has the mods to prove it.

The only thing that kept it from being a GREAT race year was the lost of Lee and the GP5.
 
Went from a 3 blade to a 2 blade Hartzell (old style airfoil) prop. Reportedly gained 7 knots. :eek: still couldn't beat the 409 Varisleazy in the final division race.

Klaus ran a parallel valve O-360, not a 409. 2,730 rpm on the course with a "homebuilt" fixed prop. It will be tough for an RV-4/8 (much less a 6 cyl Rocket) to outrun an EZ like Klaus' :D

Klaus has **a lot** more speed to extract from his relatively new LongEZ; look how fast his O-200 Varieze is.
 
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I clocked a 273 average lap speed with my 4 cylinders.. And it carried 2 people, tools, spares and 10 days worth of stuff from Kansas City.

Wait till you see the video! :)
 
I agree! Sport is the future of Reno if it is to survive. I think Strega calling it quits is going to really hurt the non-pilot crowd attendance so guys like Kevin in the NXT will be the draw.

I think I'll try SARL before Reno but maybe one day.

The RVs are not really competing against the high powered stuff in Sport Class. More RVs can only help the sport even if it's a bit of a procession.
 
I agree! Sport is the future of Reno if it is to survive. I think Strega calling it quits is going to really hurt the non-pilot crowd attendance so guys like Kevin in the NXT will be the draw.

I think I'll try SARL before Reno but maybe one day.

For reference, Strega was sold before the races, Tiger is calling it quits.

Strega will most likely continue to be the fastest airplane out there for a while... if the new owner can find someone who can fly it.
 
I clocked a 273 average lap speed with my 4 cylinders.. And it carried 2 people, tools, spares and 10 days worth of stuff from Kansas City.

Nice job Tom. I check your website from time to time. You've put a boatload of work into your Lancair.

Does Dave Morss also runs a 4-cyl? The two of you were the fastest "little motor" guys?
 
R409 RV8 Reno Facts,,,, Just the facts....

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Well another Reno Race is over and I have to say it was a bitter sweet year with the loss of one of the most respected aviators and individuals I have ever known, Lee Behel will be missed by so many...

My NXT engine totally failed during 2nd flight the day before I was suppose to head to Reno. I am not sure what went wrong but when I drained the oil yesterday several pieces of a piston fell through the drain plug. Not good. I never really liked the idea of the geared engine and now wish I have just returned to 540 and had our new R series parts in time.

R409 on RV8: many have commented on this post about my RV8 and I thought I would share what I learned last week as I am sure many will find helpful.

The engine is a R409 with the original prototype AX50 cylinders that made about 234hp on our dyno. I knew going in the the 3 bladed MT might not perform quite as good at a 2 blade prop but since MT sponsors my NXT I thought I would try and muscle it with the 409. After qualifying and a few races it became apparent that my dirty airframe, step, and flat cowl could not be overcome with just the hp the R409. I tested both props during the evenings at Stead and found at 2750rpm both props made exactly the same speed. But, when I increased 100 rpm the 2 bladed Hartzell kept pulling!!!! So as not to distract from the main purpose of Racing the RV8 and showing off the engine, I went with the 2 bladed Hartzell on Saturday and the results speak for themselves. I pasted Jim's very clean RV8 with a Bart 375, Stan's RV8 with Nitrous, and finally the very clean RV7 flown by Charlie that wipped all of us all week! I actually kept the power up the entire race even with the huge lead I gained and found myself in front of my own Longez and even a Glasair I in the Bronze race on Sunday.

To say I am happy about the performance of the R Series 409 is an understatement. Now we will tear it down and replace with a final production version of our AX50 cylinders that we expect even better results.

The last test for the R series engines will be a thorough ASTM test to include using 91 unleaded fuel.

Stay tuned....
 
-----found myself in front of my own Longez and even a Glasair I in the Bronze race on Sunday.

That explains why the Eze had the 409.

That was fun to watch the race between the two of you.

How did you con a ride in the jet for the Unlimited Gold?? Where do I sign up:D
 
Thanks for the post Kevin. I figured you had a pretty stock airframe and the others didn't. Knew some of the others had engine mods too.

Watched the live feed and was cheering for you. Nice to see an -8 run so well.

Looking forward to seeing you back with the NXT in 2015 though, Jeff needs some competition badly!
 
Pretty sure the announcer said Kevin Eldredge -------------- but then as many errors as they uttered during the races, who knows ??? Might have been the Easter bunny for all I know.
 
Pretty sure the announcer said Kevin Eldredge -------------- but then as many errors as they uttered during the races, who knows ??? Might have been the Easter bunny for all I know.

Kevin Eldredge is Relentless. Kevin Eldridge is a Chino Kid.

Eldridge bailed out of the Super Corsair on fire at Pheonix years ago.

Eldredge landed Relentless with no prop at Reno.

2 badass dudes but not the same. :)
 
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RV6

Charlie Greer has the fastest 6 in SARL I believe. Probably has some aero tweaks the others don't and a pretty strong engine, refined over time. Charlie was equally impressive at Reno.

Dave Anders' RV4 would wax both of these planes by a substantial margin. A bunch of little aero tweaks can make a big, big difference.

Apples to Oranges. Anders has a pretty radical Lycon angle valve 360. N25TS had parallel valve 360. Tracy Saylor/Charlie Greer RV6 was pretty much trashed at San Diego, pulled loose from tie downs in violent wind storm. And yes it did have a lot of small but significant airframe mods. Tracy Saylor was involved in the very early days of cross country racing-Sun and Fun and the Oshkosh races.
 
Apples to Oranges. Anders has a pretty radical Lycon angle valve 360. N25TS had parallel valve 360. Tracy Saylor/Charlie Greer RV6 was pretty much trashed at San Diego, pulled loose from tie downs in violent wind storm. And yes it did have a lot of small but significant airframe mods. Tracy Saylor was involved in the very early days of cross country racing-Sun and Fun and the Oshkosh races.

Yep, realize Anders had a lot more than stock hp but still only 360 cubic inches and he is up in the 260mph range which is up there with the Rockets. That impresses me at least.
 
I tested both props during the evenings at Stead and found at 2750rpm both props made exactly the same speed. But, when I increased 100 rpm the 2 bladed Hartzell kept pulling!!!!

And it pulled a little more at 200? Maybe 250?

A 7 MPH increase for 100 RPM would be, um, well.....;)

The last test for the R series engines will be a thorough ASTM test to include using 91 unleaded fuel.

All kidding aside, an acceptable detonation survey on 91 unleaded would say a LOT about the new cylinder head. Best I know, Lycoming has declined to approve pump gas for the 8.9 IO-390. Don't know anything about the Superior XP400. Being able to run a low cost fuel would offset the additional "R" purchase cost while maintaining the "big inch" advantage.
 
Dan, you raise an interesting scenario.

Thing is someone has to be able or willing to do the testing. And if my backside was in one, it would need to be proper testing. I know of two such places to do that and it is not cheap to do.

Just running an engine on a simple dyno and claiming all is good would not cut it for me.

But an interesting thought experiment indeed!
 
Dan, you raise an interesting scenario.

Thing is someone has to be able or willing to do the testing. And if my backside was in one, it would need to be proper testing. I know of two such places to do that and it is not cheap to do.

Just running an engine on a simple dyno and claiming all is good would not cut it for me.

But an interesting thought experiment indeed!

Detonation testing is typically done on a dyno with proper instrumentation, alternately with a data acquisition system on the vehicle with someone smart riding shotgun and watching the graphs. The dyno is the better/ safer environment to gather the initial data IMO.
 
Agreed Ross, but not many around for aero testing according to the FAA definitions (algorithms) and all that stuff.

It is not a simple task.
 
Detonation testing is typically done on a dyno with proper instrumentation, alternately with a data acquisition system on the vehicle with someone smart riding shotgun and watching the graphs. The dyno is the better/ safer environment to gather the initial data IMO.

Agree completely, the test should be at high ambients and drop cooling flow to yield the detonation points for CHT. Otherwise it's "we're good" at some random condition. We should at least be able to compare to the standard tests.

This would be a lot of test points to do this right. There are many more engine test facilities that 2 that can do this. But one thing is sure, it will be an investment.

DanH is right, for the non-revenue flyer, a fuel savings offset would certainly make the purchase viable economically and THAT is a real technical advancement, and would make it a viable business investment for Titan. Better, faster, AND cheaper = lots of buyers. On basis, how can they not do the testing?
 
This is not a complex thing to accomplish these days, nor especially time consuming. The basic protocols and factors are already well known. Map the knock activity vs. rpm, MAP, IAT, CHT and ignition timing and maybe oil temp with the control fuel.

With the EFI, you can data log most of these factors right through the ECU now.

Might want a knock sensor on each cylinder for this development task with a logging oscilliscope tied to each.

I agree, 91 octane approval would be an important factor to promote sales of this engine for Titan in this market.

I might add with the EFI/EI there is a lot more flexibility in mapping the fuel and spark to avoid detonation than using mechanical systems.
 
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