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FAA ramp checks our Young Eagles Event

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kbehrent

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Our EAA chapter held its annual Young Eagles flight day on saturday, We had over 350 kids pre-register for the event, not including those that simply show up. Due to the economy and fuel prices, we were down probably half the number of seats as last year so the pilots knew it was going to be a non-stop day of flying so that every kids who showed up was going to get a ride.

To add more burden to the day, was the appearance of three FAA inspectors who decided to show up early in the morning and stayed until @ 2pm ramp checking every pilot participating in our event.

So picture the smiles on the kids faces and the parents taking their pictures as they leave the aircraft, while trying to walk around the inspectors who in the middle of this demanding to see the pilot/aircraft paperwork. Fortunately our pilots all kept cool heads and let them know that they needed to walk the kids back to the main hangar and sign their YE certificate and would return.

I can imagine your feeling your blood beginning to boil as you are reading this, however I must say that the pilots reported that the officials were very polite and easy to work with. Unfortunately, their timing sucked and it really had an effect on our ability to avoid long wait times for the kids to get their flight.

Pilots did reported some confusion over what needed to be stated for Phase I & II testing and whether passengers were authorized to fly, but that didn't ground anybody from flying.

I certainly understand their right and legal authority to appear at our event and ramp check every single pilot who flew. Personally, I felt like they should have also ramped checked the civil air patrol event happening next to us or the many other airplanes that flew in to fuel or eat at the restaurant. Why simply single us out?

I wouldn't doubt if this doesn't become an annual ramp check for them. I do wonder if it will affect the number of pilots who fly in next year to volunteer to spend their own money to fly these kids and face grounding due to some technical misunderstanding on their paperwork either on the pilots side or on the FAA officials side. I can only hope if they do come again, they will at least be as polite as the three who came this year.
 
Darn bureaucracy!

I'd be forced to get hold of their superior! This really makes me angry.....your good deeds and their lousy timing....selective enforcement as well....sheesh.

Give 'em he!!

Pierre
 
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I agree with Pierre, a call to the FSDO might help.

It would also be good to have your chapter extend a hand to the FSDO and try to setup an event where your chapter (including pilots and planes) put on a safety event.

They can give your guys a free pass and come out and talk to the chapter about safety issues. (It is my understanding that they have to do so many hours of this type of thing, so they will probably jump at the chance.)

The FSDO can also talk about ramp checks, paperwork, TFR's, etc. and you learn something. Your chapter talks about EAB's and they learn something.

Remember, not all FAA guys know about small planes and those that do, not all of them understand EAB's.

Open discussion and dialog go a long way.

Charlotte's EAA 309 is very proud of the relationship it has with the local FSDO and does everything they can to foster that relationship.
 
Pilots did reported some confusion over what needed to be stated for Phase I & II testing and whether passengers were authorized to fly...

What were they looking for? Op Lims must be in the airplane, but not aircraft logbooks. They were demanding logs to check end-of-Phase I statements?
 
What were they looking for? Op Lims must be in the airplane, but not aircraft logbooks. They were demanding logs to check end-of-Phase I statements?

My FSDO guy told me very clearly not to keep my logs in my plane because they were tired of hearing, "The logs you are requesting must have been destroyed in the accident."
 
You should talk with the FSDO Manager. The FAA has a policy that ramp checks will not be conducted at "planned" events.
I agree wholeheartedly that your Chapter should hold an event involving the FSDO. Get on their good side. I've found that most FSDOs are very willing to work with EAA Chapters when approached with "honey" instead of "vinegar".
 
Then you need to call their boss and have them violated for breaking their own policies. Perhaps they should read their own guideline (FAA 8900, 6-2373) which plainly states:

A. Surveillance Policy. Air shows, fly‑ins, and other gatherings of general aviation aircraft and airmen......

.....1) The FAA would like this important segment of airspace users to have a very positive image of inspectors and the safety activities inspectors perform. Therefore, the FAA encourages inspectors to establish early contact with sponsors and organizers of aviation events so that informational and FAA Safety Team activities can be planned to serve attendees.
2) Under no circumstances should these gatherings be targeted for a blanket sweep inspection of spectator airmen and aircraft.
3) The scope of surveillance conducted on aviation event performers and their aircraft will be determined by the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) manager.
4) Inspectors assigned work functions at aviation events should strive to earn the confidence of the attending and participating airmen. This can be accomplished by displaying expert technical knowledge as an aviation safety professional.
5) The guidance in this section does not preclude inspectors from taking appropriate action to resolve situations they observe that require immediate corrective action.


Just my 2 cents as usual, but I wouldn't have sat back and let that go on for too long without reminding them of their own policies and they were NOT at the forefront of showing how to win friends in influence people!

The full FAA text is HERE should you want to read it or send it to your FSDO.

Cheers,
Stein
 
A

I agree with Pierre, a call to the FSDO might help.

It would also be good to have your chapter extend a hand to the FSDO and try to setup an event where your chapter (including pilots and planes) put on a safety event.
-----

Since I'm not the YE Coordinator and I'm retired from being Chapter President, I will not be making any calls to EAA or FSDO and let the new Chapter representatives do what they please. Even if I was in charge, I would not complain to either organization since I doubt it would make a difference in the future nor did they do anything wrong.

I do like the idea of inviting some reps from the FSDO to a chapter meeting to discuss what paperwork is required for the EAB, if we could find one who really knows or two who could agree. :)

We do have a retired FAA DAR in our chapter who is very knowledgable about EAB and continues to contract back to the FAA. They keep him extremely busy flying all over the world, but when he returns home he always makes himself available to perform EAB inspections and does an excellent job at it. As someone who just sent off my paperwork to begin the process of register/inspecting my RV-9A, I very interested in knowing exactly what has to be done and how to avoid future issues. I will probably have to carry copies of the regs to prove that I've done it correctly.

The reason I posted this thread is to let others know that they better be prepared for a ramp check at anytime, anywhere. It appears no event is off limits anymore. If you are not sure your legal, better find out. If you are legal, better be able to prove it in a convincing manner. To my knowledge, this is the first time the FAA has done this at this kind of an event. I believe the FAA has just fired their first shot across the bow on what we can expect in the future.
 
Fun time for sure!

I was one of the lucky ones! As Kevin said, they were very professional and I encountered no problems. They hit me up right after about the 5th kid as I was getting out of the airplane, so I just gave them the aircraft papers and told them I'd be back in a couple after checking in the kid. I returned and showed them license, drivers license, and medical. They also looked over the airplane and asked how I was doing weight and balance with kids (RV-7 so really no impact with a kid) and if I was doing the safety brief before flight.

Some of us did as many as 15 kids and we wrapped up around 5:00 PM; I suppose if it wasn't for the visit, we could have gotten one more out.

From their side, I'd suppose that this is a fairly high-visibility event, and if something went wrong, and the Feds weren't there, I'm sure the local FSDO Chief would be answering a lot of questions.
 
Then you need to call their boss and have them violated for breaking their own policies. Perhaps they should read their own guideline (FAA 8900, 6-2373) which plainly states:

A. Surveillance Policy. Air shows, fly‑ins, and other gatherings of general aviation aircraft and airmen......

.....1) The FAA would like this important segment of airspace users to have a very positive image of inspectors and the safety activities inspectors perform. Therefore, the FAA encourages inspectors to establish early contact with sponsors and organizers of aviation events so that informational and FAA Safety Team activities can be planned to serve attendees.
2) Under no circumstances should these gatherings be targeted for a blanket sweep inspection of spectator airmen and aircraft.
3) The scope of surveillance conducted on aviation event performers and their aircraft will be determined by the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) manager.
4) Inspectors assigned work functions at aviation events should strive to earn the confidence of the attending and participating airmen. This can be accomplished by displaying expert technical knowledge as an aviation safety professional.
5) The guidance in this section does not preclude inspectors from taking appropriate action to resolve situations they observe that require immediate corrective action.


Just my 2 cents as usual, but I wouldn't have sat back and let that go on for too long without reminding them of their own policies and they were NOT at the forefront of showing how to win friends in influence people!

The full FAA text is HERE should you want to read it or send it to your FSDO.

Cheers,
Stein

Stein, you always amaze me on the amount of info you have!

I don't think anybody was wanting to bring that up since it probably would have backfired on us.

They did make themselves known at the pilot briefing prior to the first flights. However, do to the number of planes, it took them all morning and afternoon to check everybody. I found it also interesting that they were taking pictures of some of the cockpits of the RVs. Not sure why.

Again, they were very polite. For some who had minor paperwork issues, they were advised to fix it or not fly. No one was busted or written up, but we did loose some pilots.
 
Again, they were very polite. For some who had minor paperwork issues, they were advised to fix it or not fly. No one was busted or written up, but we did loose some pilots.

I would be curious to know what paperwork issues they found?

As far as I know, these are the only docs required (for VFR):

Pilot:
  • License
  • Medical

Airplane:
  • Airworthiness Cert
  • Registration (make sure it's valid because they do expire now)
  • Oplims
  • Weight and Balance
 
I would be curious to know what paperwork issues they found?

As far as I know, these are the only docs required (for VFR):

Pilot:
  • License (Pilot Certificate)
  • Medical

Airplane:
  • Airworthiness Cert
  • Registration (make sure it's valid because they do expire now)
  • Oplims
  • Weight and Balance

Also must have a "photo ID" with pilot certificate.
 
I would be curious to know what paperwork issues they found?

As far as I know, these are the only docs required (for VFR):

Pilot:
  • License
  • Medical

Airplane:
  • Airworthiness Cert
  • Registration (make sure it's valid because they do expire now)
  • Oplims
  • Weight and Balance

I won't get into details, but all but two were able to immediate fix their issues.

Some who got checked in the morning were being asked about their Phase I & II signoff. Specifically that passengers were allowed. I think both pilots and FAA were confused, some pilots weren't asked. It appears they were expecting that there be some kind of signoff on the Airworthy Certificate along with a statement that passengers could be taken. Again, nobody was grounded for that.
 
A letter to your congressman will require a response from them and likely a more sensitive action. I know for a fact it can make positive changes take place.
 
I found it also interesting that they were taking pictures of some of the cockpits of the RVs. Not sure why.

I would object strongly to any pictures being taken of my airplane, except from the outside where i can not block anything. i wonder if they were looking for a compass?
 
Just thinking out loud, but is there any chance a worried parent could have called? ("Can you please make sure my child is safe?" etc.)

I doubt it, but what would the FAA response be to something like that?
 
Whisky compass is not required just magnetic reference. I have no whisky compass just two magnetometers. My DAR asked because he couldn't see one. That is all he did, ask.
 
Maybe they were just trying to "participate" in the Young Eagles program.

Personally, I wouldn't make a big deal of it. Unfortunately they delayed the Y.E. flights a bit, but I think more harm could be done by "poking the bear".

The good thing is you were able to fly a ton of Y.E.'s. That's awesome. Congrats on that. I know what it's like to do Y.E. flights and 350 is a phenomenal number!
 
ground school

I'd like to suggest that if inspectors do happen to show up at an event we all polity ask them to volunteer their time (after the inspections) and talk to the kids in the ground school portion of the Young Eagles Rally.

At my chapter we always like to tell the kids about all the supporting jobs around aviation such as Air Traffic Control, A&P, and such.

Unless something very out of the ordinary was happening, I am guessing they would be happy to help out.

300 kids, wow now that's a rally!
 
Guys: Another take on the situation. I wonder if the FSDO people were just trying to fill their quota for the year and thought this would be a quick way to get that box checked. Maybe I wear rose colored glasses, but the photos could very well be a FSDO guy who is building or thinking about building an EAB himself and just wanted to get some ideas. I've been know to take pictures of paint jobs, instrument panels, and interesting mods myself. I do like the one idea of "put them to work" in their area of expertise. How could they say no. Anyway, Dan.
 
A. Surveillance Policy. Air shows, fly‑ins, and other gatherings of general aviation aircraft and airmen......

.....1) The FAA would like this important segment of airspace users to have a very positive image of inspectors and the safety activities inspectors perform. Therefore, the FAA encourages inspectors to establish early contact with sponsors and organizers of aviation events so that informational and FAA Safety Team activities can be planned to serve attendees.
2) Under no circumstances should these gatherings be targeted for a blanket sweep inspection of spectator airmen and aircraft.
3) The scope of surveillance conducted on aviation event performers and their aircraft will be determined by the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) manager.
4) Inspectors assigned work functions at aviation events should strive to earn the confidence of the attending and participating airmen. This can be accomplished by displaying expert technical knowledge as an aviation safety professional.
5) The guidance in this section does not preclude inspectors from taking appropriate action to resolve situations they observe that require immediate corrective action.


Cheers,
Stein

From reading the original post they may or may not have violated this. The original poster said they were there first thing in the morning, and polite. Maybe they did ramp other aircraft that were there and not there for the event (doubtful, I agree). If so, there was no violation of the above policy. Plus, it is a policy, not a reg. Do policies come with sanctions if violated? They are a smart bunch, make rules/regs for others, policies at our whim for us....

With that said, I am willing to believe it was violated based just on personal bias, and sound reasoning. Too many friends have stories that amaze about personal encounters with GA Inspectors.

I 100% agree with virtually everything that has been commented on in this thread. The good, and the bad. However I am also just a little amazed that people that put on, and participate in, an event like this do not expect the FAA to possibly show up. You are advertising to the public to take their children for airplane rides! Who out there (in the GA world) needs to adhere to a higher standard? I think the best approach would be to be proactive like others have stated. Take it a bit further. Tell them the group is available prior to the event for inspection. If they don't do anything in advance and show up for the event then publicly shove your foot up their..... and let local news team know how many kids went home without rides because the FAA declined prior inspection and interfered.

Mark
 
There is a post here about why the Civil Air Patrol event was not ramped and another post about being prepared anyplace, any time.

A few years ago I was on a search in rural Alaska. Stopped for a break at a bush airport. There was no community there and no planes around. No sooner had the prop stopped when two guys stepped out of the bushes, showed their creds, and ramped me.

So, they do go after CAP and yes, you never know when or where.

I agree that it was poor relations for them to do what they did.

BTW, congratulations on the number flown. Our chapter flew 102 the same day and thought we had done something special. I can't imagine triple that amount.
 
I'm with Pierre on this one...

"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." - Ronald Reagan
 
Nic work!

Glad to see you all hung in there and flew that many YE's!

One thing that made me laugh was when "Mel" mentioned the need for photo I.D.

It made me think of the requirement for having "English Proficent" on my license!

Sometimes it's hard to keep up with all the rules since they keep changing and adding new requirements.

Kind of makes you think...how we ever make it through a ramp checks?
 
I'm with Pierre and Stein on this one.

Seems this thread has clearly delineated those that enjoy the freedoms that others have worked to win or keep based on confronting such overstepping "officials."
A sad lesson for the kids to see how the Fed can and will stick their nose in your business any time they feel like it. Maybe they'll be immune to this some day but many of us will be gone by then and they'll have to live with the consequences..... :(
 
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