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Estimated build time per kit

AndyWAUS

Member
So I started building my empennage last May. I'm getting close to finishing the elevators. Just need to rivet the trailing edges and then the trim tabs, which are also partially done already (bent, horns riveted, spar riveted on one side). Then I'll get to the tailcone. My rough estimate, by May this year I should be finished with the empennage kit or very close.

So this is one year for the first kit. How should I look at the future kits? Should I assume it'll take me roughly a year to build each kit? Or should I rather think in terms of how big the kit is? Considering the empennage costs $4,325, while the wing kit is $11,450, should I plan to spend 2.5 years building the wings? Continuing with this logic, Wing, Fuselage, and Finishing come to 10.5 years left to build. :eek: And that also doesn't include any firewall-forward work.

I know that both of my ways to estimate are the extremes and probably not very close to reality, but I wasn't able to find the breakdown here. Basically, I'm looking for the multipliers - if it takes 1 year to build the empennage, it will take X years to build the wings, Y years for the fuselage, and Z years for finishing. I'm at a stage where I need to make the next decision. My options are as follows:

- Buy a slow build wing kit
- Buy quick build wing and fuselage kits
- Stop spending money on sheet aluminum and use it instead to rent and fly a Cirrus from the local club.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy building it. I enjoy it enough to justify spending $10k on the tools and the first kit, but probably not enough to spend another $40k if I'm not going to fly in the next 10 years.
 
The same amount of work will start to go faster as you get more experience. So in other words, if you built the tail again you'd probably build it twice as fast. The wings are probably twice as much work as the tail. The fuselage probably 3 times the work. This is just my unscientific opinion, but that's what I think.
 
There are several good build logs out there which give time breakdowns.

My opinion is that as you gain experience, your fuselage and wing kits will take roughly the same time (each) as your empennage is taking. Maybe slightly more.

On the -10, finishing it (fiberglass, interior, FWF) is the bear. If it takes you 3-4 years to build the basic airframe, I'd expect the remainder to take a couple of years, at least.

Alternately, if you really push, you can finish from where you are in a couple of years. Dedicated and skilled builders do that kind of thing every year. As an example, friends finished the phase 1 fly-off time on their -10 right at 6 months after they hung the engine. That's an absolute mountain of work in 6 months. So it can be done.
 
Thanks for the reassuring words. I’m sure it can be done. After working on the empennage with zero skills I’m even almost certain that I can do it all (although I’m having doubts about that canopy and doors). My question is more about if I can do it in a reasonable time at my current rate. The reason it’s taking me a whole year to build the empennage is not because I spend 2 hours for every rivet. I have a good workshop and all nice tools and I work reasonably quickly for a newbie. I just don’t do it very often or systematically. Full time job and family take priority and occupy most of my time, so I can only put an hour of work here, a couple hours there.
 
Andy,

You will never be happy with a Cirrus, so get that out of your mind.

You are the perfect candidate for a going the quick build path. Just do it.

My experience:
- First project an RV-8A slow build. 4.5 years start to first flight. Had a day job.
- Second project, an RV-10 slow build. 5 years start to first flight. Had a day job.
- Third project, an RV-8 slow build. No day job. 2.5 years start to first flight but a full year was taken up with family issues.
- Forth and final project, an RV-10 slow build. Waiting for the Empennage kit to arrive.

My point. Do not discount the aspect of building. Pride of flying what you build is invaluable.

Carl
 
Andy,

These planes take a ton of time to build. Especially for those of us who aren’t pros and work full time. Take a look at builder logs. Lots of people spend more than 10 years.

If you want to fly a plane, rent or buy one.

If you want to build a plane, the RV is a ton of fun.

If you have family obligations, it can be difficult to justify spending large amounts of time in your workshop rather than spending it with your family. I was fortunate that my teenage son loves aviation so building could be a way to spend time with him instead of away from family.

You are at a great stage to sell the empennage and tools if what you really want to do is fly and spend time with family.

David
 
wise words from David.

More thoughts for reflection:
Looking at the situation as you describe it (never built a -10 myself) your quoted 10 years building time seems realistic, unless there is a change. There are people that have been building for 30 years, or more...

Since you're afraid of that project dragging for too long a time, there are only to options:
1) call quit, then either rent or buy a flying -10 (current prices 200K+) or else
2) commit and take the plunge with the quick built options

Option 2 will give you a "finished" aircraft... but there still is plenty of work remaining. Remember the axiom, 90% done 90% to go. Systems installation, fuel, electrical, avionics, firewall forward, etc, might take another 3 years or more.

Yep, tough decision...
 
Multipliers

In my experience so far building a -6A, if the empennage was 1 unit of work then the wings were 2 units of work and the fuselage is 4 units of work. I've been told by several builders that once the whole airframe is done you are about half way through the project.
I've been building for 28 years but had breaks in between due to work, further studies, family, moving house etc., i.e. normal life events.
Good luck with your decision, it is smart to review the project at natural checkpoints.
 
There is no way to to use time as a multiplier. Everyone, including you has other things in life to accomplish.

The slow build will take 2000-2500 hours if you don't make a bunch of mods
Quick build will cut 300-600 hours off that.

Figure out how much time you spend on average each week or month and do the math.

I averaged 10 hrs per week. It took 5 years and 3 months for about 2700 hours. The extra hours were spend adding extra mods (mostly interior) You can find the breakdown of hours in the Kitlog link in the sig line as well as just doing a search for RV10s on their web site.
 
I ordered my empennage 3/19, wings 11/19, and most likely will order the fuse kit this month since there is a 5 month lead time. I still have several hours to do on the tailcone (last bit of work on the turtledeck and the fiberglass and attach). Wings done except for 1/2 of the top and all of the bottom skins and tips. I'm averaging 1-2hrs/day and I took 6 months off before ordering the wings.

I suspect I'll run out of things to do before the fuse arrives. I've been looking at what wiring and other systems I can install beforehand.

Van's is transitioning to final-sized holes now as well, which will save significant time on the build.
 
Building my 10 took a little over 4 years... and on average it was roughly 1 year per kit.
 
I'll give you another data point... I took exactly 1 year on the tail kit. I've a wife and two kids, with full time job.

I'm just about finished with the wings now 1 year in on them, with only the wing tips and one flap left to go, so I'm going to estimate slow built wings will take me around 14 months or so. Unlike others, I've done all the mods I wanted to on the wings as I've went along, including installing ER tanks, heated AOA mount, and trim servo mounted. Bottoms are riveted on, and conduits installed.

As others have said, the pace picks up a bit as you become familiar with basic things.

My fuse is on order, so I can't speak to the time frames down the road, but since our build times were the same on the tail kit, thought info on the wing build might be useful for you.

Good luck,
Lance
 
I started building mine on Dec 19, 2019. After 13 months, I have logged 770 hours on the build, plus maybe 20 hours of help from people more expert than I am. We hung the engine last weekend. I expect to be flying by this fall, less than 2 years after starting. I don't count the likely hundreds of hours I have spent on this site, reading manuals, reading textbooks, researching parts, reading the build PDFs, etc. 770 hours includes just the "tools in hand" time.

The pandemic has made it possible. I'm not traveling for work and I don't have to go to the office. My wife is more than happy seeing me out of the house (and out of her way) a few hours each day. Plus it works out nicely that my hangar has great power and wifi (allowing for the occasional work phone call / zoom meeting), and is near my son's swim practice, making it convenient to pick him up each evening. So, I've been logging lots and lots of hours over the last year, since the world has given me the opportunity to do so.

My point is that you shouldn't think about this purely in years. Think in hours. Slow builds are estimated to take around 2000 hours. Quick builds maybe 1500. Can you spend 3 hours a day, 6 days a week? Or can you spend 2 hours, twice a week. Extrapolate that out and that's your build pace.
 
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The slow build will take 2000-2500 hours if you don't make a bunch of mods
Quick build will cut 300-600 hours off that.

I dunno about that quick-build time saving. Based on what I've read here plus my own experience fixing quick-build chuck ups(!), my take is that some of that time saving will be spent in correcting the poor quality construction of the so-called quick build parts.

-Marc
 
If you are not thrilled about spending another $40k, then you are definitely not going to like spending the $125k+ above that to get a flying plane.
 
For those that arent ordering a QB in the next couple months, the SB isnt as slow anymore with the final sized holes planned to be included in the complete kits by the end of 2021 in all kits. I'm a long ways to go on the fuse and plan to make sure the wings are final size throught the kits (if possible) before making the order.
 
Thank you everyone for your inputs! What you told me, quick build or slow, it's a long way before first flight. :)
Which is fine. I don't have a hangar yet anyway, and from what I heard from others in the area it will take years of waiting to get one.
Some of you suggested that I can sell my partially completed empennage. It didn't occur to me a project could be sold. Not sure if anyone would want to buy a first-time builder's tail. :) But this got me thinking that spending the next $40k on a quick build is not all sunk cost. If I buy a quick build now and later decide to quit, the quick builds can probably be resold close to the cost. This is what I'm currently inclining to.
The way you describe FF work sounds like a lot of fun to me. I also feel quite comfortable about programming avionics, being a software engineer in my normal life. Perhaps I'll plow through the metal work just to get to that stage, and then I'll end up with a flying airplane. :)

Glued my foam ribs and the trailing edges on the elevator with the tank sealer last night. One more little step forward.
 
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Don't get me wrong, I enjoy building it. I enjoy it enough to justify spending $10k on the tools and the first kit, but probably not enough to spend another $40k if I'm not going to fly in the next 10 years.

If you’re kind of thinking that building isnt right for you this early in the game, I’d cut your losses now. Building is definitely not for everyone. Now that I’m done, I’m not so sure I would do it again. I think I enjoy flying more than building. My motivation that kept me going was really wanting a -10 and willing to suffer to get it. I contemplated quitting a number of times throughout the build. I’m glad I got through it because the 10 is an amazing machine.
 
But this got me thinking that spending the next $40k on a quick build is not all sunk cost. If I buy a quick build now and later decide to quit, the quick builds can probably be resold close to the cost.

I very much doubt that. When you sell a project you’re only dealing with bargain hunters. If you sell QB (or slow build) kits expect to take a financial beating on them.
 
Oyez, oyez, oyez

If you’re kind of thinking that building isnt right for you this early in the game, I’d cut your losses now. Building is definitely not for everyone. Now that I’m done, I’m not so sure I would do it again. I think I enjoy flying more than building. My motivation that kept me going was really wanting a -10 and willing to suffer to get it. I contemplated quitting a number of times throughout the build. I’m glad I got through it because the 10 is an amazing machine.

Wise words, +1
 
I When you sell a project you’re only dealing with bargain hunters. If you sell QB (or slow build) kits expect to take a financial beating on them.

Maybe. There seems to be at least a few people who want to cut down on the wait time for getting a kit. Maybe not so much on the tail, but certainly on the wings, and fuse.

-Marc
 
Maybe. There seems to be at least a few people who want to cut down on the wait time for getting a kit. Maybe not so much on the tail, but certainly on the wings, and fuse.

-Marc

Your point is taken. However for the most part prudent prospective RV kit buyers understand that there are very real risks in buying projects from builders...incomplete kits, shoddy workmanship, damage to components, outstanding SBs etc etc. Generally they want a real bargain to compensate for those risks. I think that’s the way it goes.
 
I tracked sales of used kits for a couple of years and, generally, kits seem to sell for 25-40% off new prices - the more complete, the more they are discounted. Builders want to build and don’t seem to want someone else’s work, while non-builders want a huge bargain - thus the farther along, the lower the price.

Obviously not a hard and fast rule, but pretty consistent based upon this site, barnstormers and deals shared with me by various folks I have encountered.
 
My RV-10 QB took me 1380 hours, and I added a lot of extra items into it. This broke down to-
  • Empennage (260)
  • Wings (92)
  • Fuselage (225)
  • Finishing (563)
  • Firewall Forward (95)
  • Final Assembly (145)

Now what I didn't track was the hours put in correcting, adjusting things during Phase I. Could probably toss another 100 or so hours in the mix there.
 
My emp took 80 hours and three months. I’m still waiting on the wings, so I took about a month to do all of the fiberglass, but it could have been done quicker.

I tried to average 10 hours a week and usually exceeded that.

Everybody is different.
 
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