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What keeps you from flying aerobatics? Really?

I fly an aerobatic RV and don't fly aerobatics because... (check all that apply)

  • I do fly aerobatics but not interested in competition.

    Votes: 91 51.1%
  • I'm worried about breaking my airplane.

    Votes: 25 14.0%
  • I can't afford equipping for aerobatics.

    Votes: 7 3.9%
  • I'm too old for this type of flying.

    Votes: 17 9.6%
  • I can't find someone to teach me aerobatics.

    Votes: 27 15.2%
  • Aerobatics just scare me.

    Votes: 16 9.0%
  • My wife or others discourage this activity.

    Votes: 9 5.1%
  • I have a medical condition that precludes this activity.

    Votes: 4 2.2%
  • I just don't like having fun.

    Votes: 5 2.8%
  • I haven't really thought about it. Tell me more.

    Votes: 13 7.3%

  • Total voters
    178
  • Poll closed .

ronschreck

Well Known Member
Sometimes I feel like I am beating my head against a brick wall. I have enjoyed flying competitive aerobatics in my RV since 2006 and have done my utmost to encourage others to do the same. Last weekend an aerobatic training session was held at Siler City Airport (KSCR) and numerous RV pilots contacted me, anxious to come out and participate or watch. We welcomed sunny skies and moderate temperatures on Saturday morning and I was the only RV pilot that showed! :( Where are you guys? In an effort to answer that question I have posted the accompanying poll. Those of you who are flying aerobatically capable RVs (RV-3,4,6,7,8,14) please give me honest answers to the poll and I will try to address your questions and concerns in this thread. Thank you for participating.


 
Want me to post an MRI of my lumbar discs? Ain't no juice left in 'em ;)

Seriously, a few 3.5G pulls and I pay for it all week. The seat is too upright for a tall guy.

BTW, you may have missed a factor in the survey list. I could be wrong, but competition appears to require significant travel, and a lot of us out here are not retired, or on flexible schedules, or otherwise lack independent income.
 
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Training.

Willing, but not suitable weather yet.

Too much weather between C75 and you for this training session. I have found a school near Chicago that has an RV 8 and will do training. Plans for this spring. I snowed again yesterday, so not just yet. Also, a little cowl work is needed, my FAB rubs at 3 g's. I found that resting in PH I.

This was not a selection in the poll.
 
Want me to post an MRI of my lumbar discs? Ain't no juice left in 'em ;)

Seriously, a few 3.5G pulls and I pay for it all week. The seat is too upright for a tall guy.

BTW, you may have missed a factor in the survey list. I could be wrong, but competition appears to require significant travel, and a lot of us out here are not retired, or on flexible schedules, or otherwise lack independent income.

You can easily pick out the motorcycle racers at the Bonneville Salt Flats, they all walked funny.
 
Yeah, I'm a bit scared

OK here goes.

We built an RV-7A. Looked for quite a while for a decent 9, but couldn't find anything that met our quality standards. Twenty something ATP pilot son convinced us to buy/build a 7 so he could go upside down. That's what we did.

I haven't flown any real aerobatics since UPT in 1981. It's hard to hurt a T-37 or a T-38. My G tolerance is slim to non-existent now. Aerobatics in a low powered GA airplane is a different animal from an afterburning supersonic jet.

I need training. Hope I'm still trainable. Had discussed going to Alabama to get some experience with Greg Koontz before trying anything beyond a simple aileron roll. So yes, I'm a bit gun shy - despite (probably because of) 20K hours of mostly feet on the floor heavy iron flying.
 
i personally found it to be physically uncomfortable, best analogy i can think of is sorta like riding on a small boat on choppy water, some people do it- i just don't think it's enjoyable

i guess to each his own?
 
I'm too fat! Can't get an instructor in my 7 and be within aerobatic weight limits.

My 6 has like no useful load to get up to the acro weight with 2 pilots onboard.

What worked for me was getting training in a super decathlon / pitts, than transferred what I learned into to the six solo. At least now I can get to the point of critiquing myself, but yes having the useful to get an acro instructor on board with us would be a beautiful thing.

For me, learning, critiquing, and improving on maneuvers has been a fun way to become a better RV pilot, and enjoy another aspect of flying.
 
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Want me to post an MRI of my lumbar discs? Ain't no juice left in 'em ;)

Seriously, a few 3.5G pulls and I pay for it all week. The seat is too upright for a tall guy.

BTW, you may have missed a factor in the survey list. I could be wrong, but competition appears to require significant travel, and a lot of us out here are not retired, or on flexible schedules, or otherwise lack independent income.

OK Dan, go ahead an post your MRI. ;) Here's my x-ray of three cervical disc replacements and four vertebra bolted together.



BTW the disc did not sustain injury from aerobatics, just old age.

I'm not trying to minimize anyone's medical issues. I'm not competing with a dedicated aerobatic mount like and Extra or MX because I no longer have the physical stamina to withstand 10 positive and 6 negative Gs that is required at the higher levels of competition. I regularly come back from a practice flight with plus 5.6 and minus 1.8 on the G-meter. That's enough for me and well within the capabilities of my RV-8.

I do understand that there is a cost to competing and that is certainly something to consider. The entry fee to most competitions is about $100-125. That's cheaper than most rock concert tickets and a lot easier on your hearing. I've tried rock concerts and prefer to spend my money on aerobatics. I'm amazed at the expense some people will endure to do something they love.
 
I fly lots of aerobatics. I just didn't like some of the pedantic, childish, boorish behavior I saw at multiple IAC gatherings. Besides, aerobatics are a means to an end - I'm much more interested in rat racing than doing loops/rolls/etc for a panel of judges.
 
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I'm too fat! Can't get an instructor in my 7 and be within aerobatic weight limits.

Ever wonder why most two-place aerobatic airplanes are flown solo from the rear seat? It's so you can put a fat student in the front seat, right on top of the center of gravity and the additional weight will make little or no change in the CG. I encourage you to get professional aerobatic training in such an aircraft. The basics you will learn will transfer to your RV. You will develop the skills and the confidence that you can recover from spins and unusual attitudes in your RV or any other aerobatic mount. The finer points can be learned by working with aerobatic coaching from the ground. Your local IAC chapter will have training days and personal coaching is freely given by experienced competitors.
 
Willing, but not suitable weather yet.

Too much weather between C75 and you for this training session. I have found a school near Chicago that has an RV 8 and will do training. Plans for this spring. I snowed again yesterday, so not just yet. Also, a little cowl work is needed, my FAB rubs at 3 g's. I found that resting in PH I.

This was not a selection in the poll.

Sorry, I can't do anything about your weather except to urge you to move South. :D

Many have discovered that engine droop at the higher G loads is a factor. I have Van's standard engine mounts in my RV-8 and find them to be among the best in the industry. But, no engine mount will keep your engine from drooping and it is sometimes necessary to put some washers under the bottom mounts or fabricate a bulge in the cowling to allow the engine room to move. I have had issues with my alternator contacting the cowling and solved that by using a smaller alternator belt.
 
Poll

I have done aerobatics and have training but am not really interested in this facet of aviation. Most have been in a Decathlon and Skybolt. Building a -10 so...

According to your poll, I guess "I just don't want to have fun".

Maybe you should have included a "Just not interested" category; there are tons of other ways to have fun in aviation...
 
OK here goes.

We built an RV-7A. Looked for quite a while for a decent 9, but couldn't find anything that met our quality standards. Twenty something ATP pilot son convinced us to buy/build a 7 so he could go upside down. That's what we did.

I haven't flown any real aerobatics since UPT in 1981. It's hard to hurt a T-37 or a T-38. My G tolerance is slim to non-existent now. Aerobatics in a low powered GA airplane is a different animal from an afterburning supersonic jet.

I need training. Hope I'm still trainable. Had discussed going to Alabama to get some experience with Greg Koontz before trying anything beyond a simple aileron roll. So yes, I'm a bit gun shy - despite (probably because of) 20K hours of mostly feet on the floor heavy iron flying.

Krea,

I, too learned aerobatics in T-37s and T-38s back in 1969. The good news about pulling Gs in the RV is that it doesn't last long. I flew F-16s for several years and it would put 9.5 Gs on you through an entire 360-degree turn. :eek: I could take that when I was in my 30s but no longer. Aerobatics at the Sportsman level of competition requires no more than 3.5 to 4 Gs and that lasts for just a few seconds at a time. That's easily tolerated by most of us old farts in fair shape.

Greg Koontz is an outstanding instructor and a weekend at his B&B in Alabama will be fun and you will gain skills and confidence you never thought you had. Tell him "hi" from me. He gave me my last eval for the airshow SAC card.
 
i personally found it to be physically uncomfortable, best analogy i can think of is sorta like riding on a small boat on choppy water, some people do it- i just don't think it's enjoyable

i guess to each his own?

Brian,

It's not for everyone and I respect anyone's decision to not do aerobatics for any reason. Sounds like you tried it and didn't like it. I tried brussel sprouts and didn't like them. Hope no one holds that against me. ;)
 
Brian,

It's not for everyone and I respect anyone's decision to not do aerobatics for any reason. Sounds like you tried it and didn't like it. I tried brussel sprouts and didn't like them. Hope no one holds that against me. ;)


Yep, those CAN be tasty, but often are not- same with asparagus, hit or miss

For what its worth, your poll did not have an option applicable to my stance, you may consider revising it
 
I fly lots of aerobatics. I just didn't like some of the pedantic, childish, boorish behavior I saw at multiple IAC gatherings. Besides, aerobatics are a means to an end - I'm much more interested in rat racing than doing loops/rolls/etc for a panel of judges.

Hi Brad,

You took home a second place trophy at the only contest you have entered, (Aces High Aerobatic Contest, Newton, Kansas, September 2016). I have found that one in three first-time IAC competitors never come back to another contest. That's a pretty poor statistic and one that I revealed to the IAC leadership a few years ago. I'm sorry that your first contest was a disappointment and hope you will try another contest as the IAC has taken steps in recent years to make newcomers very welcome. We were all first-timers at some point and need to remember that.
 
I have done aerobatics and have training but am not really interested in this facet of aviation. Most have been in a Decathlon and Skybolt. Building a -10 so...

According to your poll, I guess "I just don't want to have fun".

Maybe you should have included a "Just not interested" category; there are tons of other ways to have fun in aviation...

Bob,

The "I just don't want to have fun" poll selection was a tongue-in-cheek comment. :rolleyes: After reading some of the posts I think I could have included at least another 50 responses on the poll. Your experience in a Decathlon and Skybolt indicate that you have tried aerobatics and decided it's not your cup of tea. I respect that and hope you are having a blast at whatever aspect of aviation you pursue.
 
Hi Brad,

You took home a second place trophy at the only contest you have entered, (Aces High Aerobatic Contest, Newton, Kansas, September 2016). I have found that one in three first-time IAC competitors never come back to another contest. That's a pretty poor statistic and one that I revealed to the IAC leadership a few years ago. I'm sorry that your first contest was a disappointment and hope you will try another contest as the IAC has taken steps in recent years to make newcomers very welcome. We were all first-timers at some point and need to remember that.

It's not for me - I really like formation acro and rat racing much better at this point - but perhaps others would enjoy it. This is a quick clip that captured that particular contest weekend for me (click on the picture or go to https://youtu.be/2DNrFKTuOcA):



 
I do sloppy loops and rolls but have never used a chute because when I built my tip-up, I did not include the jettison mechanism. Not sure I could bail out of it if I needed or wanted to. At the time I did not install it since it was unproven and in my opinion when used with the gas struts likely to take your head off if you try and jettison it with those attached. (Makes me wonder if a slider will even slide in flight?)

Does the IAC accept Basic Med as an alternative to regular medical certificates?
 
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To me, anything more than an occasional roll simply isn't fun. Your poll presumes that the activity is fun; to me it isn't.

Dave
 
I fly gentleman aerobatics all the time in our RV7, as well as tail chases and formation. I'm just not interested in traveling too far or spending and entire weekend at an aerobatic competition. If there was a clinic in the area, I would come out and give it a shot. I learned aerobatics in fighter jets, but would love to learn about the precision that the judges look for in competition.

Motivational Photo:
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I do sloppy loops and rolls but have never used a chute because when I built my tip-up, I did not include the jettison mechanism. Not sure I could bail out of it if I needed or wanted to. At the time I did not install it since it was unproven and in my opinion when used with the gas struts likely to take your head off if you try and jettison it with those attached. (Makes me wonder if a slider will even slide in flight?)

Does the IAC accept Basic Med as an alternative to regular medical certificates?

Brian,

The IAC does require that the canopy be capable of being jettisoned in flight. Van's canopy release designed for tip-up canopies is approved. Many object to the T-handle in the middle of the instrument panel. This can be replaced with a T-handle cable that can be mounted anywhere on or under the panel.
(I don't think any slider or tip-up canopy release has been proven in actual use. I won't be testing mine. :()

Basic Med is honored at IAC events.
 
I learned aerobatics in fighter jets, but would love to learn about the precision that the judges look for in competition.

Chuck,

The IAC chapter in Memphis is awaiting your call:


IAC 27
Collierville, TN
President: Michael Tipton
Contact: 573-922-9600 | [email protected]
Meetings: Every 1st Saturday 9:00 AM
Location: DeWitt Spain Airport-CAF Hangar
2787 N 2nd Street
Memphis TN 38127

Website: IAC27.eaachapter.org
 
aerobatics

"...To me, anything more than an occasional roll simply isn't fun. Your poll presumes that the activity is fun; to me it isn't..."

Exactly.
 
Ron for me not being able to get dual in my plane has been an issue. I am fortunate enough to have taken/take instruction in a SD and S2C, but it?s not the same as having someone backseat in your plane. I will also admit that I have a fear (more a little anxious) about breaking my plane as you put it. Not so much doing maneuvers as recovering from my screw ups. But I am having a blast working to get better and to get everything out of my RV it can give. That includes a few planned competitions this year. Hope to see you in Farmville!
 
Is it just me?

Every time I do more than two rolls, or pull ang significant g?s, I get air sick. It wipes me out for the rest of the day. Otherwise, I would love to join the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds. I can?t believe I?m the only one.
 
Every time I do more than two rolls, or pull ang significant g?s, I get air sick. It wipes me out for the rest of the day. Otherwise, I would love to join the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds. I can?t believe I?m the only one.

Steve,
I have found that it is something that you get used to .
I can go a month or more without pulling G's and I get flush the next flight.
If I work up to it it becomes a non issue. If I go play a few times a week I can work up to an extended high G session with no problems.
 
Every time I do more than two rolls, or pull ang significant g?s, I get air sick. It wipes me out for the rest of the day. Otherwise, I would love to join the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds. I can?t believe I?m the only one.

Steve,

I had a good friend in Air Force pilot training who got sick every time he went up. But he was determined. He asked his instructor to take the stick while he filled the little white bag, took control again and continued the mission. He went through over half of the year long training before getting over the air sickness. I know there is no magic cure and the FAA frowns on medications that may help. I hope this is something you can overcome. You have my best wishes.
 
Ron for me not being able to get dual in my plane has been an issue. I am fortunate enough to have taken/take instruction in a SD and S2C, but it?s not the same as having someone backseat in your plane. I will also admit that I have a fear (more a little anxious) about breaking my plane as you put it. Not so much doing maneuvers as recovering from my screw ups. But I am having a blast working to get better and to get everything out of my RV it can give. That includes a few planned competitions this year. Hope to see you in Farmville!

If ever a RV was going to break due to aerobatics I think mine would be the first. I have over 2200 hours on my RV-8 and most of that is in aerobatic flight. I know some cite the RV speed in descents as a detriment. In the aerobatic box you are so confined that it would be difficult to exceed Vne. There are no maneuvers in the Sportsman level of IAC competition that require more than 4 positive Gs and 1 negative. Should you somehow exceed published limitations you can be assured that the RV is greatly overbuilt and you would have to purposefully disregard those limitations in order to break something. See you at Farmville!
 
Ron, I've had a little training and am slowly getting comfortable with aerobatics. I think I'd enjoy beginner level competition, but I've just got too many projects, commitments and other diversions going on right now to do it. I think I'll join the IAC, read up a bit and who knows where it might lead. John
 
Ron, I've had a little training and am slowly getting comfortable with aerobatics. I think I'd enjoy beginner level competition, but I've just got too many projects, commitments and other diversions going on right now to do it. I think I'll join the IAC, read up a bit and who knows where it might lead. John

John,

When you decide the time is right, let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
 
Ron, I've had a little training and am slowly getting comfortable with aerobatics. I think I'd enjoy beginner level competition, but I've just got too many projects, commitments and other diversions going on right now to do it. I think I'll join the IAC, read up a bit and who knows where it might lead. John

John,

When you decide the time is right, let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
 
I've been with others while they did some acro in other types of aircraft. I didn't enjoy anything about it. Best description of how I felt during the acro would be the falling cat!!!

Edited: I wonder if peoples brains are wired differently regarding liking this kind of stuff. I just had an interesting thought. When I was a kid swimming in the summer and I did LOTS of that.... I tried I swear thousands of times to jump off the diving board and do the simple flip. NO WAY would my brain allow it. It was an involuntary action. Before I ever even got upside down my body would shoot bolt upright trying to straighten out. No matter how determined I was I never was successful. Just an interesting thought.

If you EVER see me upside down in my plane, it was an accident!!!
 
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cost of learning?

I haven't seen anyone talk about the cost of learning how to safely perform aerobatics in my -6A. I can find someone to teach me but it looks like the basic courses are a grand-plus, and that's before we even get in my airplane. I'm not intending to whine about the costs but they aren't insignificant.

I'm pretty sure I don't want to do competition aerobatics but I know I'd enjoy rolling my airplane and probably looping it as well. I just made a promise to myself years ago that I would not turn my plane upside down without being taught how to do it safely, and that's one promise I've actually kept.
 
no fuel injection

I replaced my carb with an Ellison Throttle Body 12 years ago, and it was almost just a swap out without changing fuel pumps, etc. If someone (except Ron) says they didn't feel any discomfort and doubts on the first few aerobatic flights, they aren't being honest. It took me at least 4 lessons over thirty years ago before I could start concentrating on doing the figures right. Didn't really have any interest in competition aerobatics until a competitor invited a bunch of us to a practice session with coaching. It then became a bucket list item 10 years ago. Thanks Ron for organizing these workshops. Trying to make the sequence perfect gives me a reason to fly. Attending the competitions is a chance to socialize with the best pilots and friends in the world. My goal now is to be able to fly a decent sequence in competition when I'm 80 which is quickly approaching in two years.
Cheers, and have fun while you can,:)
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL
 
Odd question in my mind. Why do we have to fly aero!? You make it seem like all the other benefits of the plane aren't enough, or valid. :confused:
 
Every time I do more than two rolls, or pull ang significant g?s, I get air sick. It wipes me out for the rest of the day. Otherwise, I would love to join the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds. I can?t believe I?m the only one.

No, you aren?t the only one. I?ve never gotten physically sick, but I have gotten that ?wiped out for the rest of the day? thing. With me it?s only some things: spins, and, if I do enough of them, lazy eights. But steep turns/spirals, or turbulence, don?t bother me at all. And here?s a strange data point:
I?ve been to ?Star Tours? at Disneyland (basically a full motion simulator). I emerged ?wiped out?, returned to the hotel and went to sleep at 6 pm, and slept for 14 hours (!). On the next trip, I went thru the ride again, but this time kept my eyes closed the whole time. I emerged feeling just fine. So, with me, it?s not just the motion. Of course, I can?t close my eyes in the airplane.
 
the fun aerobatics require fuel injection....I have a carb.

Tracy,

I will admit that fuel injection is nice to have, but the Primary and Sportsman sequences can be flown without inverted systems with little downgrade. I met an older gent at a New Jersey contest a few years ago who was flying the Sportsman category with a stock J-3 Cub. I asked him how he managed to do that and he replied, "I have to take two breaks during the sequence to re-start the engine and climb for altitude. Despite that, it's a lot of fun."
 
I haven't seen anyone talk about the cost of learning how to safely perform aerobatics in my -6A. I can find someone to teach me but it looks like the basic courses are a grand-plus, and that's before we even get in my airplane. I'm not intending to whine about the costs but they aren't insignificant.

I'm pretty sure I don't want to do competition aerobatics but I know I'd enjoy rolling my airplane and probably looping it as well. I just made a promise to myself years ago that I would not turn my plane upside down without being taught how to do it safely, and that's one promise I've actually kept.

This is one reason I haven't done it yet and that my wife is very against it. I've briefly looked into it and by the time you add up all the incidentals I just decided spending $1,500 to tick my wife off isn't worth it to me. I can do that for much cheaper :D
 
Ron;
Take some comfort in knowing that this RV flier got a sweet deal on a YAK-55.
In my heart, I'm still an RV-8 builder and flier.
Yes, aerobatics make me urpy. mostly because they don't come naturally to me, and I don't practice often enough.
HOWEVER, I notice that maneuvers that used to make me urp don't, just mostly the new maneuvers I'm learning.
Finally, after a couple of years I'm becoming friends with the Yak and the M-14p engine.
I'm sorry for the fellow who experienced pedantic and small minded people at an IAC contest, my experience at the regional level has been the opposite. These folks are from all walks of life, the best of the best, truly alive and fun to hang with.
I hope to range wider after I retire, meet more IAC folks.
 
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I haven't seen anyone talk about the cost of learning how to safely perform aerobatics in my -6A. I can find someone to teach me but it looks like the basic courses are a grand-plus, and that's before we even get in my airplane. I'm not intending to whine about the costs but they aren't insignificant.

I'm pretty sure I don't want to do competition aerobatics but I know I'd enjoy rolling my airplane and probably looping it as well. I just made a promise to myself years ago that I would not turn my plane upside down without being taught how to do it safely, and that's one promise I've actually kept.

Robert,

You have the right attitude. I would not recommend that anyone try aerobatics without proper training. A few hours in a Decathlon or other aerobatic airplane is usually enough to learn unusual attitude and spin recovery techniques that readily transfer to your RV. As mentioned in earlier posts, the RV is not a great airplane to fly dual aerobatics due to the CG issues. Competition aerobatics is not for everyone and I understand that but basic aerobatics is a skill that pays dividends to those who master the basics. Knowing how to recover from a botched maneuver or final turn can be a life-saver. I value my aerobatic skills even more than my IFR prowess and most pay much more for instrument training.
 
Odd question in my mind. Why do we have to fly aero!? You make it seem like all the other benefits of the plane aren't enough, or valid. :confused:

Andy,

Nobody HAS to fly acro. I do it because I enjoy it and it gives me the skills that maximize my confidence and go a long way to insure that I fly safely. (See post #45) For me, flying from point A to B isn't enough. I would enjoy having the opportunity to race at Reno as well but I only have one lifetime and it seems to be quite full at the moment.
 
I replaced my carb with an Ellison Throttle Body 12 years ago, and it was almost just a swap out without changing fuel pumps, etc. If someone (except Ron) says they didn't feel any discomfort and doubts on the first few aerobatic flights, they aren't being honest. It took me at least 4 lessons over thirty years ago before I could start concentrating on doing the figures right. Didn't really have any interest in competition aerobatics until a competitor invited a bunch of us to a practice session with coaching. It then became a bucket list item 10 years ago. Thanks Ron for organizing these workshops. Trying to make the sequence perfect gives me a reason to fly. Attending the competitions is a chance to socialize with the best pilots and friends in the world. My goal now is to be able to fly a decent sequence in competition when I'm 80 which is quickly approaching in two years.
Cheers, and have fun while you can,:)
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL

My HERO! :)
 
Krea,

I, too learned aerobatics in T-37s and T-38s back in 1969. The good news about pulling Gs in the RV is that it doesn't last long. I flew F-16s for several years and it would put 9.5 Gs on you through an entire 360-degree turn. :eek: I could take that when I was in my 30s but no longer. Aerobatics at the Sportsman level of competition requires no more than 3.5 to 4 Gs and that lasts for just a few seconds at a time. That's easily tolerated by most of us old farts in fair shape.

Greg Koontz is an outstanding instructor and a weekend at his B&B in Alabama will be fun and you will gain skills and confidence you never thought you had. Tell him "hi" from me. He gave me my last eval for the airshow SAC card.

Thanks Ron and will do. I know it will make me a better pilot and there will be a lot of enjoyment (eventually). I've got to get over the concern about having to learn a new set of skills.
 
I flew a number of competitions in my RV-8 over several years but it has been many years now. My work schedule and the costs are the factors that have kept me away. I hope to fly one or two this year but work may well interfere again.

?Retirement? late this year should clear up that issue for next year.

Scott A Jordan
80331
 
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