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Wide Patterns!

N941WR

N941WR

Legacy Member
Much as been written regarding keeping patterns close and I like to think us RV types do it all the time just because we are RV’ers.

Saturday a friend and I flew to Lancaster, SC (LKR) to catch up with some of the RV formation guys and eat a free burger.

There was a lot going on at LKR that day. Three AgCats were operating, seven RV’s were having formation practice, a guy in a Kitfox was circling over the airport about 2000’ AGL watching, and a number of transits were coming and going.

My Technical & First Flight Advisor and friend flew his -6A in so I offered him a ride in the -9. We took off and went west and south of the airport to practice some turns, stalls, etc. so he could get a feel for the plane.

When it was time to return to the airport we made a call that we were “five south of the field inbound for landing.” At the same time two of the AgCats were coming in for a landing, one of the RV formation flights was coming in, some guy was on mid-field cross wind, one transit was on final, and a Cherokee called down wind for landing.

Now, my position call wasn’t precise and could (should) have been better and later on the Cherokee pilot said he didn’t expect us there and I’m certain he never saw us. We were at pattern altitude about three to four miles from the airport and paralleling the runway with the intention of doing a right hand 180 to enter the down wind. While this was going on we were looking all over the place for all the traffic. All of a sudden I noticed the Cherokee “on downwind” flying right at us but about 100 feet higher. Sorry, but I have never seen a down wind three or four miles from the airport.

We did the 180 to downwind and watched the Cherokee continue out probably five miles before turning base. We could have turned base and landed well before him but did not. In discussing this, my friend mentioned that although it is an aggravation flying large patterns even though we could have easily landed and cleared the runway. He went on to say that by staying behind him, we are in control of the situation. By landing in front of him, we would have had no idea what he was doing and since he was flying such a large pattern, it was obvious he either wasn’t that comfortable flying or just didn’t care. Thus, staying behind him allowed us to adjust our spacing according to him and stay safe.

Of course, if we had an engine failure, we would have been in the trees but that is true if we were cruising along and not approaching an airport.

One other comment, my position reporting wasn’t exact so the Cherokee pilot wasn’t looking for us where we were. I was guilty of misleading him as to our approximate position.

The “take away” from this is two fold. 1. Don’t get so distracted looking for traffic in one location that you forget to look at the rest of the sky. 2. Know your position and report it correctly.

Just thought I would pass that little bit of wisdom along.
 
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Great post Bill - it is true of aviation, as in anything - we are always learning....and so is everyone else (we hope)!

Paul
 
I almost had a mid-air right over Savannah while doing touch-n-go's. I was solo and the other 172 had my doctor and his instructor in it. I followed them on take off. They were staying in the "pattern" also. I was on the downwind keeping a standard pattern and I just passed the numbers. I couldn't find the other plane and stayed on the downwind. I was about to contact the tower and ask where the other plane was. But before I could the CFI came screaming on the mike while they passed 100 feet below me. I was mad as he11. Apparently they were flying a BUFF pattern while the rest of us were flying a standard pattern. When I got down an asked the CFI what he was doing his only comment was that his student liked flying an extremely wide patterns. I Asked him if someone doesn't like driving on the right side of the road would it be OK if he drove on the left side to make him happy? Ofcousre I am assuming we are driving in the US.
 
I concur with Paul... great post, Bill. A good "learning situation" and advice we can all benefit from.
 
Bill,
Great post.
When I first started flying my 7A at my non-towered home base, I flew a tighter pattern than when flying my previous airplane(Cherokee).

We have a lot of older pilots based here that fly a very wide pattern.
I try to a better job of sequencing, but most times, I fly off and re-enter when there less congestion. Nice thing about the RV is you can get out very quickly.
 
The entire first post is exactly why the "Initial" overhead break is better. As a flight or solo.
 
I agree, the overhead break is so much better, you can look at the situation at hand and it is much more fun when you drop down in.
 
Wide patterns rank up there with "5 mile finals" and people entering "straight in" for final from way out. It ties everyone else up and makes it hard to keep other traffic in sight.

At my home airport there are some wide patterns, but I also see closer patterns a lot where they extend a long way downwind. When they turn onto final they're only 500' or so AGL. If the engine falters they are SOL.
 
10 different pilots have 10 different practices. Not to say that any one is right or wrong but I believe the criteria for gauging distance from the runway during patterns is always to allow yourself the option, or illusion, of being able to make the runway if you lose an engine. I would get a new CFI if he just let me do whatever I wanted for the sake of keeping peace. I wonder how he will react if they ever lose an engine and can't make the runway.

Just as there are different practices there are also pilots with different attitudes. Some seem to think they are the only one that counts. (these are the guys that cut everyone else off in the pattern)

I typically try to accommodate everyone and I don't mind giving way if someone else asks. The main concern, beyond their personal safety, when flying a wide pattern is our personal safety. In the busier airports it helps when you know where to look to find someone when they give a position report.

I try to land at the front end of the runway, on or near the center line just as a matter of pride. I fly with a friend that's satisfied if all of the wheels touch down on any part of the concrete. Neither is wrong I just try to be as precise as I can in case I need to make a landing on a short/narrow runway.
 
I guage my landing by being able to hit the spot I want. Like calling a short approach with a long landing. Meaning that I turn it at mid field and touch down right where I want and then get right off at the end of the runway. Of course when I do my practice runs, I do all kinds of approaches and hit at different spots on the runway, with results that I know exactly where I end up. Now I have to say, when I've tried doing this at a noncontrolled airport I generally get a letter in the mail stating that I'm going to get turned into the local FSDO if I continue, so I'm limited to practice at a tower airport. That's ok, I still do it and now can land anywhere on the runway.

Just the other day the traffic was so bad, that the tower out of the blue asked me if I could turn in on short approach, that there was an aircraft on 4 mile final, I said sure nuf, I was still at 800ft Tpa and I pulled the power and dived for the runway, using steep turns and slip, I headed in abeam the numbers. I got down and slowed in my usual way and landed with throttle back all the way down, touched on the front wheels and then let the tail come down and got off on the first taxi way. Way fun, and was off the runway before the guy said he was 2 miles out.
 
9 runways

When I taught people to fly gliders in Illinois in the 90's, I told them there were at least nine 'runways' on the 2600' x 200' grass runway we were preparing to land on. Left/center/right and first/second/third of the length. Sometimes, as luck would have it, there were gliders on each side waiting for a tow, and the glider landing in front of us stopped in the middle. No big deal. Close the spoilers, coast over the top, and land on the second (or third) part of the runway. Of course a go-around wasn't an option.

Another technique was to land 30*-45* off of normal runway heading...cut the strong cross-runway-winds way down. Ground roll in that strong of a wind was just a couple hundred feet at most.

Anyway, just food for thought.

-Jim
 
Kahuna said:
The entire first post is exactly why the "Initial" overhead break is better. As a flight or solo.
Click to expand...

I've heard the "overhead break" referenced several times.
Would you define the manuever.
I've always tried to enter the non-towered pattern on the 45 but find myself always bleeding off altitude prior to entering the pattern and sequencing...
 
DeltaRomeo said:
You can view it online at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnZx9p8CmdU (about 50 seconds into the clip).

It's the quickest (and I think safest) way to get planes down. If the pattern is full I don't do it, of course, but it's my preferred arrival method.

b,
d
Click to expand...

OK, if I understand correctly, your saying the overhead break...

Pattern entry 1000 AGL on the upwind over the runway.
60* break 180 to downwind over the numbers
~45* 180 to final
 
DanLandry said:
Pattern entry 1000 AGL on the upwind over the runway.
60* break 180 to downwind over the numbers
~45* 180 to final
Click to expand...
You pretty much got it. Couple little things...
60* AND 2G on the break to keep it nice and tight.
The 180 to final starts sooner than the 45*, more like 10-20*. If you are a wingman, begin turn/ descent where your lead did. And do not descend prior to starting the turn.

Other than that, you got it. Try it, it's fun, even more fun with friends.
 
sprucemoose said:
Other than that, you got it. Try it, it's fun, even more fun with friends.
Click to expand...

Not to be a kill-joy, but since this is the SAFETY forum, I know it's been said, but I'd like to re-emphasise....

While you and your friends are having fun, remember that the traffic pattern is not about YOU. It's about setting up a predictable flow of traffic so that everyone around the field knows where everyone else is. If you are absolutely certain that there is no other traffic, then use whatever makes you comfortable. An overhead break is a great way to set yourself up for landing, and to recover a formation of aircraft, no question....but fitting it in to a standard pattern, with people doing touch and goes, sometimes (admittedly very occasionally) without radios, and not educated in the meaning of the term "initial point" - well, is it worth it to put other people at risk just so you can enjoy it?

The overhead pattern is fun, and adds little risk to you - but it increase risk to others, and that's why I personally won't use it in an uncontrolled environment when there is the possibility of traffic. I have said this before, because it is not obvious - it works extremely well in a military environment because the military has controlled fields - they have a Tower to make sure that the airspace is orderly, and to sequence airplanes in the area.

Practice these types of arrivals at empty fields, or ones with towers, but to make it your standard arrival at a strange airport puts other people at risk without their consent, and I can't hold with that. The topic of this thread was basically about people not being where we expect them to be in the vicinity of the airport, and it doesn't make any objective difference if that is too wide, to high, to low, to close....or dropping into the downwind in the middle of the field.

I don't expect to change the world, or even a little piece of it, but I do hope that I give folks that are untrained or inexperienced in this stuff something to think about. And that is all I ask - think about it.

Peace and respect,

Paul
 
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An overhead is fun, it does work, and it generates at least as many complaints as the wide pattern people. <g>

Seriously, you get a good look at the downwind on the inbound, but once you start the 60* 180, you can no longer see anything you missed. The downwind path with which you are merging is under your belly and becomes more so as the turn progresses.

A four-ship fan break tends to make the problem worse. The leader gets a look at the downwind, but wingmen have a "division of attention" problem as well as a visual problem that gets worse with age. They're trying to maintain station (close eye focus) and glance at the downwind (far eye focus) if they are diligent. With a potential audience below, they tend to devote all their attention to maintaining the perfect formation. Ok, the leader starts his break. The second guy tends to watch him in order to time his own break, the third does the same, etc. Nobody is even looking at the downwind.

We've already had one near miss, a FSDO visit, and a student who quit. Our airport pilot community is divided, with radical believers on both ends. The war ebbs and flares. Right now the war has started again, because the overhead guys chose to make a fan-break arrival into a nearby regional fly-in, right in the middle of the Saturday AM rush, and with total disregard for the published arrival procedure. No temporary FAA tower, so you can do whatever you want, right?

If your home-base pilots are comfortable with overheads, well, be careful and have fun. There are problems with overheads, and for sure it might not be a good idea to use one on arrival to a strange airport.
 
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Overhead break,

I think I goofed when I said that I like this. Well I don't. I've never used it and I don't think I ever will. There is a set of biplanes at my field that use this and every time they do, they disrupt the hole system. I don't care if they are in formation, it stinks. We have a tower and every time, flight of... comes in, the people that are set up for the small runway get pushed aside for these jokers. I think this is just a means for a show off landing.

Now the procedure that I indorse when things get busy is the wind sock check. That's where you orbit above the field in a 360, generally 1000ft above TPA. Last year I went into an area for the very first time. I started to just fly in like I do at home at one of my regularly visited fields and then said, wait a minute, what am I doing. I turned around and got my bearings and went up to 1000 ft above tpa and flew right over the field and did 360's checking for traffic and putting things together for the proper runway to land on. Once I figured out what was going on I than dropped down into the downwind and landed.
 
overhead break engine out

DanLandry said:
OK, if I understand correctly, your saying the overhead break...

Pattern entry 1000 AGL on the upwind over the runway.
60* break 180 to downwind over the numbers
~45* 180 to final
Click to expand...

Since safety was brought up, what about using this for an emergency engine out procedure. Probably wouldn't want the steep bank turns, but the idea of flying upwind 1000' over a potential landing spot to get a good look sounds like a reasonable approach. If you are higher and need to bleed atltitude, you could use this as your spiral down procedure? What do you guys think?

ajay
 
allbee said:
Once I figured out what was going on I than dropped down into the downwind and landed.
Click to expand...
Allbee and others,

I certainly appreciate your concern for safety. Anytime we deviate from a standard traffic pattern at a non-towered field, we introduce an elevated level of risk. This is true of an unusually wide pattern, an overhead break or another non-standard maneuver. I would argue that a properly executed overhead is less of a hazard than a bomber pattern, but others may argue the opposite.

I know that when I lead a flight into an uncontrolled field for an overhead, I am in a hyper-vigilant state, knowing what I am about to do. I would submit that someone flying a bomber pattern is not likely to be in this same state of mind.

Also, the idea of "letting down" into a downwind is a non-standard maneuver that strikes me as especially hazardous, particularly in a low wing airplane. Again, whenever you deviate from the norm, the risk is elevated.
 
There is two ways of entering into the down wind from a 360 overhead, check the sock, whatever. First your 1000ft over tpa, so that's about 1800 ft off the ground. You can A) dive bomb in from an inside 45, should only be done if there is no traffic. or B) safest, to extend out from normal pattern, observed from traffic in the pattern and enter back in on an outside 45 for the downwind.
 
sprucemoose said:
You pretty much got it. Couple little things...
60* AND 2G on the break to keep it nice and tight.
The 180 to final starts sooner than the 45*, more like 10-20*. If you are a wingman, begin turn/ descent where your lead did. And do not descend prior to starting the turn.

Other than that, you got it. Try it, it's fun, even more fun with friends.
Click to expand...

I'll give a try tomorrow with a bit more altitude the first few times.
Safety First!

On the weekday evenings, it's usually very quiet. I've got the whole runway to myself to play.
 
I'm a real chicken in this situation, I have to admit. Agcats, Kitfox, RVs in formation...all landing?

I turn around and go look at some more scenery and come back later. :D
 
I went out today to do the "initial break" manuever at 4500 agl to get a feel of of the 60* break and subsequent...

It will take some work to feel comfortable especially at 1000 agl.
But you guys were right, it's a lot of fun.
 
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