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RV-10 New Door Design?

Bluelabel

Bluelabel

Well Known Member
Going to throw this one out there. This is something I've been researching for the last couple weeks. While I agree with all the posts about the doors and that proper latching, and checklists will eliminate the problem. I also agree with the thought that an unlatched door shouldn't rip off. We(builders and the power of this forum) have the means to change it if we want. I'm far enough out on my build that there could be a better solution by the time I'm ready. (If not, Sean's plane around latch and sensors will do)
So, couldn't we design a new system? Either forward hinges, or the Cirrus type opening(called Lamborghini doors in the auto industry). A friend of mine built a race car out of an Acura about 12 years ago, and engineered a set of Lamborghini type hinges. Now there are aftermarket bolt on kits. Something like that could be used on the 10.
Just a thought. Maybe we can work together to come up with another door option.
Anyone out there about to be working on doors and want to do some creative engineering?
 
Nothing wrong with creative engineering... that is what home building and the experimental category is all about.

Just keep in mind that jumping in to modify something that someone else designed can leave you missing a lot of critical details, because of unfamiliarity with some of the design details/requirements (this happens with RV's all teh time).

Example...
- Even though the RV-10 was planned to be a cabin with doors type fuselage, it was a design goal to keep the visibility as good as possible (to maintain good visibility similar to the other RV designs) Most people agree that goal was met.
- To meet that goal, it meant keeping window and door posts as small as possible... and they are.
- The window and door posts are integral parts of the rollover structure, so they are rather massive solid composite laminates. They are the primary roll over structure, which is why builders have always been discouraged from drilling holes in them for sun visors, etc.

My point...
If you are going to do a proper job modifying the door hinge geometry, be prepared to do a full static test of the rollover strength of the new cabin design (this was done with the current design).
 
How about taking a close look at the aerodynamics of the door? Any ideas on how to modify the door in such a way that it would "fly" towards a closed or nearly closed position rather than snapping off? That would save the trouble of modifying the door mounting points.
 
When I first got started I heard rumors of a company in Bend that was contemplating doing the whole canopy in Carbon Fiber and engineering a new door system. I believe the cost was too high for a single builder, but if there was a minimum order or someone to front the cost and desired to start the market, it was a possibility.
 
I thought about this too when I was first building my doors. I agree that visibility would be compromised with two big hinge points on the forward side of the door posts but it should be doable. Is it worth the time and effort of building this vs. remembering to properly shut your door? I don't think so but it is good to think about better solutions. You would probably have to relocate the pins or add some to the back of the door as well. If anything beefing up the forward posts for hinges would make it stronger for flipping over accidents.

I truly believe the extra time while building the doors is the best scenario.

Stiff door/good bonding of halves
Good fit
Ease of closing and latching
Vans Warning system
 
As you know from my other posts, I do not want Van to redesign anything on the RV-10 door and in fact I was annoyed at the mandatory latch "patch"
in the middle of the door.

On the other hand, I favor experimentation and would not discourage anyone from trying to come up with a better option.
The visibility in the 10 is phenomenal compared to some of the airplanes that beef up the front post to accommodate the door hinge stresses.
Front hinged doors would most likely require 2 door locks, one to the rear and one on top much like a cherokee.
"Better" would be a compromise at best where an unlatched door may not come off but you now have to be happy with a less than ideal field of view out of the front office and enormous added cost, complexity as well additional weight. All of this to make up for a deficient preflight procedure
which could be cured with very little effort and no money at all.

Something else I wanted to add about my experience loosing a door on a Cessna 182. Granted, it was a Skydiving Cessna with a top hinged exit door
and although I had to take responsibility as the pilot in command it was an overly eager jump master that popped the door to early and at too high an airspeed. No harm done except a dent on the horizontal stabilizer and it happened more than 25 years ago.

The point I would like to make is this. I think the door would actually stay on the 10 with the introduction of a side slip into the open door.
We routinely opened and closed the door even at high speed by side slipping just a little and were able to keep it at any position with varying degrees of side slipping. In perfectly coordinated flight the door would pop open with a giant bang.
I am not willing to give it a try in my own 10 but that is what I would do if my door popped open.

The aerodynamic option might be the best idea I have heard so far and would likely incorporate a wing profile on the inside of the door.
There would be less elbow room, more weight and complexity to accommodate the door lock mechanism.
 
CharlieWaffles said:
When I first got started I heard rumors of a company in Bend that was contemplating doing the whole canopy in Carbon Fiber and engineering a new door system. I believe the cost was too high for a single builder, but if there was a minimum order or someone to front the cost and desired to start the market, it was a possibility.
Click to expand...

That is a good option to have. I hope to have this by the time i get to the finish kit which will be a few years.
 
I had posted this exact question about a month ago. But I have since changed my mind on modifications in general.

I am in the market for a -10 (kit or completed). I have looked at a lot of planes and kits, and I have seen some very bad ideas implemented by builders. The sad point is some of the worst mods were done by builders that were A&P's an aero engineers. Some are well documented bad ideas that resulted in changes and AD' on certified planes.

If your thinking of a mod that adds weight, go fly two of the same model at significantly different weight and see how it affects the handling and stall speed. Then think that you will always fly the heavier version with this mod.

So, in the end, I have come back to Van's way of thinking. Build it light.

Keep in mind, any mod you do, no matter how well documented, most likely will result in a significantly lower resale value.
 
"...Keep in mind, any mod you do, no matter how well documented, most likely will result in a significantly lower resale value..."

You should really add IMHO to that statement.

There are numerous mods that will do just the opposite...
 
The point I would like to make is this. I think the door would actually stay on the 10 with the introduction of a side slip into the open door.
We routinely opened and closed the door even at high speed by side slipping just a little and were able to keep it at any position with varying degrees of side slipping. In perfectly coordinated flight the door would pop open with a giant bang.
I am not willing to give it a try in my own 10 but that is what I would do if my door popped open.
Click to expand...

At least in the jump plane, the giant bang was the door hitting the wing, not the empennage. Having opened a lot of jump doors, a pilots reacting with rudder input in time to control the door swing would have to be pretty fast.
 
Rocketman, your probally right. But the only mods I can think of that add value are well accepted common mods. (Going from a -4 to a rocket is more than a mod in my book) The one-offs not so much. IMO. But I am a RV familiar buyer currently in the market.
 
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All the well accepted common mods started off as one-offs. Just like the metal wing on the Stits Playboy that got us all into the RV world in the first place...
 
Agree, but the metal wing and mod changed it from a playboy to the RV-1.
I don't think Vans would be too happy about a similar major mod to one of the RV models and still calling it a Vans aircraft.
Then try to name it something new like the sf-1 and see how you do in selling it in this market.
 
Good Ideas

So far, I think the consensus is less about changing the door design (unless it can be done with out significant weight gain, personally I'd give up 10lbs, if it meant having a door that if opened in flight didn't do much), but more about making a way for the door to not get ripped off. Which is another great idea.
I had an idea about some sort of airfoil that, if opened at speed, would want to force the door towards the cabin. I'm not an Aero Engineer, so not sure of the logistics, but that seems possible. OR even something that is compressed when the door is closed and pops out to catch air when the door is open. Of course, it would have to not cause enough drag to rip the door towards the back of the plane.....:D
 
An interesting door comparison is how Socata did it on their TB series.

Their door is much lighter because none of the moving parts of the security system are in the door, they are in the sidewall of the aircraft. The door has two D-ring catches at the bottom. As the door comes down, the catches snap into springed hooks in the top of the bottom door frame. Moving the door handle to the secure position draws those hooks down securing the door. The door handles themselves are near the front occupants knees in plain view.

When I started I was ambitious enough to consider a Lambo hinge on the lower front of the door and then a cable over center latch handle at the top. Lambo hinges of various types are available in the hot rod markets. However, my desire for A/C and a center overhead ruled that out.

I have Sean's planearound system which I am impressed with plus the magnetic sensors. I also have affixed armrests that could be used to exert pressure to hold the door should we realized that it isn't latched. The force between fully closed and that inch or so of laminar vacuum until it enters the slipstream isn't so powerful that it can't be overridden. I feel that the doors are safe as configured as long as they get the attention they deserve. Having immersed myself into the build now at about 90% completion, my zeal for redesigning things has abated and my faith in Van's designers has improved. No matter what the design, it still has to be constructed correctly, maintained regularly, and operated properly.
 
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I now have just at 300 hrs on my 10 and like the posts, I like most of everything the 10 has to offer for the price, however if a cottage business can develop a better door and canopy (such as Charlie Waffles, post 4 describes) door latch system, fairings, interior, etc. then I'm ALL for it! I installed Sean Strasburg's rotating door latch, PlaneAround LLC, in my 10, quality product and great idea. Why limit ourselves? Isn't this one of the many benefits and options we have as Experimental aircraft builders??

Anyone walking the Rv10 HBP at OSH had to see and admire the awesome Rv10 and finished job that Bryan Milani of Showplanes did. Bryan designed a cowl, different air inlets for the engine, reworked the nose gear fairing and engine exit air, the entire rear top fuselage, rudder fairing and an interior that looks like my BMW 750LI. Isn't this really what we all want or like?, assuming you're willing the pay the price for the upgrades.

I personally would build another 10 just for some of the great ideas and improvements I see out there.

Power On!

Kenny Gene
Wichita Kansas Area
Rv 7a AWC 9-07 690 hrs sold 11-11
Rv10 AWC 10-10 300 hrs
 
If the RV-10 door comes open during the early takeoff phase, side slipping will allow you to bring the door down enough to be able to grab it and hold it while you return to the airport for landing. You cannot close the door again in flight. I doubt at cruise that the door would remain on long enough to side slip.

Shortly after my fly off hours were completed (2006) I failed to insure that the rear pilot side door pin was seated and the door came fully open at about 500 feet. Having flown skydivers for years in a 182 with in-flight door I side slipped so the door came down from fully open to about half open, grabbed my pull down strap, ran my left arm through it while continuing to fly the airplane, reduced power and did a return to the airport and landed. One hinge had bent and I had to replace the hinge. One hinge had torn completely out and I had to rebuild the hinge mount.

I also redesigned each door locking arm so that each door pin would go completely through the door frame and could be touched from the backside of the door frame to insure there were fully seated.

Since 2006 I have as part of my pre-takeoff inspection, personally physically reached behind each door frame to insure by touch that each door pin has fully seated and is completely through the door frame. This does not allow for me to put a fancy cover over the backside of the door frame however.
I consider it a small price to pay to insure that a door doesn't ever come open again in flight. Even when my wife is flying with me in the right seat and she tells me that the door is fully closed I still personally reach in back of her seat and check the rear door pin and reach across her and check the front door pin. I know it irks her that I don't trust her but it is a habit that I won't break regardless of who is in the right seat. I know if the passenger door came open it would be highly unlikely that I could get the airplane back on the ground without losing the passenger door.

N427EF said:
As you know from my other posts, I do not want Van to redesign anything on the RV-10 door and in fact I was annoyed at the mandatory latch "patch"
in the middle of the door.

On the other hand, I favor experimentation and would not discourage anyone from trying to come up with a better option.
The visibility in the 10 is phenomenal compared to some of the airplanes that beef up the front post to accommodate the door hinge stresses.
Front hinged doors would most likely require 2 door locks, one to the rear and one on top much like a cherokee.
"Better" would be a compromise at best where an unlatched door may not come off but you now have to be happy with a less than ideal field of view out of the front office and enormous added cost, complexity as well additional weight. All of this to make up for a deficient preflight procedure
which could be cured with very little effort and no money at all.

Something else I wanted to add about my experience loosing a door on a Cessna 182. Granted, it was a Skydiving Cessna with a top hinged exit door
and although I had to take responsibility as the pilot in command it was an overly eager jump master that popped the door to early and at too high an airspeed. No harm done except a dent on the horizontal stabilizer and it happened more than 25 years ago.

The point I would like to make is this. I think the door would actually stay on the 10 with the introduction of a side slip into the open door.
We routinely opened and closed the door even at high speed by side slipping just a little and were able to keep it at any position with varying degrees of side slipping. In perfectly coordinated flight the door would pop open with a giant bang.
I am not willing to give it a try in my own 10 but that is what I would do if my door popped open.

The aerodynamic option might be the best idea I have heard so far and would likely incorporate a wing profile on the inside of the door.
There would be less elbow room, more weight and complexity to accommodate the door lock mechanism.
Click to expand...
 
dav1111 said:
You cannot close the door again in flight.
Click to expand...
Yes you can, but it requires a second person and a handle at the back of the door. I doubt a single person could do it alone, and certainly not without a rear handle.

dav1111 said:
I doubt at cruise that the door would remain on long enough to side slip.
Click to expand...
Probably, but it may just open about half way and the person in that seat can grab it and pull it down from that position.

dav1111 said:
I know if the passenger door came open it would be highly unlikely that I could get the airplane back on the ground without losing the passenger door.
Click to expand...
Without someone sitting in that seat, I agree.
 
In some situations it worked out

Being one who lost a door and a plane I feel a little different. My doors had Sean's mod and they were secured. When I had fire and with smoke filled the cabin, I was so glad that I knew I could unlatch the door and it will open and fly away. If it happened in my RV-9A there was no way that I can get the smoke out. When I got to the ground, it was quick for me to get out. Just a different thought.
 
tc1234c said:
My doors had Sean's mod and they were secured. When I had fire and with smoke filled the cabin, I was so glad that I knew I could unlatch the door and it will open and fly away.
Click to expand...

And let me add, that in an emergency situation like a fire, it is very good that the door had a single operating device that included the safety latch.
 
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