Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
Ditching an RV in water
- Thread starter Arlen
- Start date
Steve, good question. I have wondered about wearing a life vest or having one handy all the time. When Vlad took off going over Lake Michigan, I saw his life vest. That started me thinking.
If I had to make a forced landing in water or into the trees, I want all the air bags possible around me. A life jacket may only offer a small amount of protection, but a small amount is better than none.
I even considered avalanche airbags as a possibility. One of the guys on VAF went over on landing and had severe head - neck injuries. Even a life jacket would help hold your head and neck in line.
Look at this link and consider if you believe it could help protect a pilot and passenger in the event of a forced landing with or without going over. I like the protection overhead. Maybe that would help get out of a tipped over plane?
http://www.snowbigdeal.com/abs-powder-avalanche-airbag.html?___store=default&gclid=Cj0KEQiA8f6kBRCGhMPFtev8p58BEiQAaMLmqWHtpf95q_SSnsJkhrDJ3lCN_EfuQg9DRrYfKQb5jPAaAgFJ8P8HAQ
I know they make airbag seat belts for planes and that may be a good solution. The idea of the avalanche equipment came to me after seeing it demonstrated and knowing that it has saved many people in the hills of Colorado.
Any thoughts?
If I had to make a forced landing in water or into the trees, I want all the air bags possible around me. A life jacket may only offer a small amount of protection, but a small amount is better than none.
I even considered avalanche airbags as a possibility. One of the guys on VAF went over on landing and had severe head - neck injuries. Even a life jacket would help hold your head and neck in line.
Look at this link and consider if you believe it could help protect a pilot and passenger in the event of a forced landing with or without going over. I like the protection overhead. Maybe that would help get out of a tipped over plane?
http://www.snowbigdeal.com/abs-powder-avalanche-airbag.html?___store=default&gclid=Cj0KEQiA8f6kBRCGhMPFtev8p58BEiQAaMLmqWHtpf95q_SSnsJkhrDJ3lCN_EfuQg9DRrYfKQb5jPAaAgFJ8P8HAQ
I know they make airbag seat belts for planes and that may be a good solution. The idea of the avalanche equipment came to me after seeing it demonstrated and knowing that it has saved many people in the hills of Colorado.
Any thoughts?
rightrudder
Well Known Member
If I had to make an off-airport landing...in the water or otherwise...I'd instruct my passenger to remove the seatback upholstery and place it in front of his/her face before touchdown. That is, if time allowed. Might require loosening/re-cinching the 5-points. I'm a big believer in padding the edge of the glare shield too.
I like the previous poster's suggestion of having a small hatchet at the ready for canopy-breaking.
I like the previous poster's suggestion of having a small hatchet at the ready for canopy-breaking.
In a water landing, the *last* thing you want is a life-jacket-sized air pocket strapped to your body. When the aircraft fills with water, that air pocket will pin you to the highest point in the fuselage. That could be the footwell, the baggage compartment, or the tail cone. You will *not* get out.
Use your jacket or a sweater for padding around your head if needed... But not air.
This would be a much better solution, as they would deflate after they were deployed, and they wouldn't be attached to your body while you were trying to get out.
fixnflyguy
Well Known Member
Air Belts (maybe someday)
I work with the Air belts installed in some airline seats, and they are nothing to mess around with. The system is similar to car airbags with accelerometers and electrical triggering components requiring great care to install and cautions to prevent accidental discharge and injury during maintenance. There was a recent fatality caused by just that. I'm not sure if there any G/A applications out there, but I bet there will be soon.
I work with the Air belts installed in some airline seats, and they are nothing to mess around with. The system is similar to car airbags with accelerometers and electrical triggering components requiring great care to install and cautions to prevent accidental discharge and injury during maintenance. There was a recent fatality caused by just that. I'm not sure if there any G/A applications out there, but I bet there will be soon.
catmandu
Well Known Member
I am thinking more of the protection from the crash. Any type of air filled jacket or protection is easily deflated. I worry less about being trapped in the foot well than banging my head on the dash, canopy, or anything else hard. Maybe it doesn't have to be attached to the pilot or passenger.
The accident where the A model went over after the plane had slowed down. Necks were injured in the slow flip of the plane was more what I was thinking. I have had my neck fused in two locations and protecting it is a major concern of mine.
I believe I would like it deployed before I crashed. That is the drawback I see with the seatbelt airbags. Great for a car when you don't expect a crash. In an airplane, most of the time you have time to prepare. A Mae West type of jacket would hold your neck and at least partially your head. The avalanche system would be better for ground crashes since it would give you space above your head.
The accident where the A model went over after the plane had slowed down. Necks were injured in the slow flip of the plane was more what I was thinking. I have had my neck fused in two locations and protecting it is a major concern of mine.
I believe I would like it deployed before I crashed. That is the drawback I see with the seatbelt airbags. Great for a car when you don't expect a crash. In an airplane, most of the time you have time to prepare. A Mae West type of jacket would hold your neck and at least partially your head. The avalanche system would be better for ground crashes since it would give you space above your head.
Arlen
Well Known Member
regarding life vests...
We always have ours on when flying over water (to Bahamas), but we use the type of life vests that inflate by CO2 cartridge or by manual inflation, so we wouldn't get trapped inside by an inflated vest.
I would not ditch in the water with a vest already inflated, for reasons listed above.
I have a small pillow to place over the face - right at touchdown in the water - for protection from the stick.
We always have ours on when flying over water (to Bahamas), but we use the type of life vests that inflate by CO2 cartridge or by manual inflation, so we wouldn't get trapped inside by an inflated vest.
I would not ditch in the water with a vest already inflated, for reasons listed above.
I have a small pillow to place over the face - right at touchdown in the water - for protection from the stick.
pancaking plus
I'm thinking a combination pancaking and pulling back aggressively to land tail first. Even in a stall you're forward momentum is still carrying you at a fast velocity and the gear will hit first likely with enough force to flip the plane. Hitting tail first will rotate into the gear/wings, but maybe enough drag to prevent cartwheeling over? Also in a 10, maybe thinking open the gull wing doors? Even at a slow speed they will fly open with a crack.
It would be nice if a simulator like Xplane could test out these theories. Any Xplane experts out there? Before my plane was built I practiced with an rv10 model that someone built. That was 4 years ago, after flying, I lost interest in the simulator (wonder why?).
ajay
I'm thinking a combination pancaking and pulling back aggressively to land tail first. Even in a stall you're forward momentum is still carrying you at a fast velocity and the gear will hit first likely with enough force to flip the plane. Hitting tail first will rotate into the gear/wings, but maybe enough drag to prevent cartwheeling over? Also in a 10, maybe thinking open the gull wing doors? Even at a slow speed they will fly open with a crack.
It would be nice if a simulator like Xplane could test out these theories. Any Xplane experts out there? Before my plane was built I practiced with an rv10 model that someone built. That was 4 years ago, after flying, I lost interest in the simulator (wonder why?).
ajay
I see you are from the east coast. Out here (west) there are many places, like Catalina, where it goes straight from water to big rocks. But if there is a nice beach, without people, then it's an easy choice.
I suspect the tendency to flip over might be even worse on sand (unless it's really hard-packed, and I mean *hard* packed), wouldn't it?
Arlen
Well Known Member
I would think that the risk of a beach landing is also significant: soft sand would likely cause a flip-over; spotting a human or big rock on the beach at the last minute and diverting to the off-shore water would be dangerous if it causes flipping over in shallow water (and canopy resting on the ocean floor, unable to be opened). Hmmm...
Saville
Well Known Member
That's just a soft field landing.
Saville
Well Known Member
We have those too. But for the most part we have long stretches of sandy beach and as the tide goes out it leaves harder packed sand.
If one could flip over in water, flip over on hard packed sand and flip over on soft sand, I'd pick the hard packed sand. You won't drown.
Of course, if there are lots of people on the beach that presents other problems and that would alter the calculation. However for many months of the year, here in the Northeast, there aren't many people on the beach.
Saville
Well Known Member
I used to live near Orlando and went to New Symrna beach a lot. I remember row upon row of cars and trucks parked on the hard pack of the beach. And there were always muscle cars driving up and down the beach.
I would think that if the hard pack coudl handle that, it might handle an airplane haplf the weight.
Arlen
Well Known Member
On the hard-pack, true. That's why I said "soft" sand being the flip-over risk. The really soft stuff is just west of the hard-pack, and at high tide, there isn't a lot of hard-pack available.
Last edited:
How can you tell from the air whether the sand is hard packed like concrete or soft and fluffy like quicksand?
Unless you have prior knowledge of that particular beach, you really can't. If you're guaranteed to tip over anyway, you might be better off in water deep enough to swim out of it before or as it's sinking.
Saville
Well Known Member
Yep it's true...at high tide landing on hard pack is less of an option.
Saville
Well Known Member
And unless you have prior knowldege of the shelf under water you don't know the depth of the water as a function of the distance off shore. You might be thinking you are landing in deep water when you are not. You might flip over and be looking at your canopy buried in the sand before you undo your belt.
I've lived on the ocean most of my life and I have to say I never found the hard pack left by a receding tide to be like quicksand. Or soft and fluffy. Different deal regarding the sand that's always underwater - there yes your feet sink into it as you stand there and the waves come by.
Everyone gets to make their choice when the chips are down.
You factor in number of people on the beach, state of the tide, how far out you *think* you have to go in order to reach deep enough water for you to have the "sink time" to get out of the plane before it hits bottom, and compare that to the temperature of the water and how far you have to swim to get ashore and how long that will take you and how good a swimmer you are and whether or not there are any rip tides which will drag you out and not inshore, whether or not you have to help extricate a pax underwater, swim skill of the pax, wave height and direction, wind strength and direction, your ditching skills......
vs a soft field landing.
If you were over land would you consider (not necessarily select but consider) a plowed field for a forced landing? I would. So what's the difference?
Look at this article - Miami beach. people were killed but not the pilot/pax. Crowded beach.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article1977558.html
Look at the airplane sitting on the sand. And that's not even hard pack.
or this article - again a beachgoer was killed, so you have to factor that in of course.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...crash-landing-florida-beach-article-1.1882022
Nosewheel collapsed. Not a flip over. Notice where he landed - hardpack left by the water.
My point is not to try and convince anyone of anything other than that there are a LOT of factors to weigh and not reject a beach landing out of hand.
Certainly if I were in the situation, and it was August with a lot of beachgoers, I'd reject the beach landing.
Or the mostly always dry stuff above the tidal region. Yes, I agree. Some may not be aware, or have thought about, the difference however. Near me is a beach where people regularly fly in and land during the summer (remote island, with no resident population, so beachgoers are rare).[/quote]
Factoring that in, i'd risk myself with a water landing before risking *any* beachgoers. I'd even try and make sure i'm far enough out to avoid swimmers, which will be even harder to see.
In reality, I suspect it's more likely that it would happen in the middle of a crossing where landfall isn't even remotely possible. In that case, i'm looking for a boat to land near, not smooth beach.
A Deep water landing happened to
A good friend of mine.
He was flying a Stinson 8 off Cattle Point in the San Juan Islands (WA). The engine quit, a water landing was in the cards. He flew across the bow of a commercial fishing boat, then plopped in. The wheels pulled the plane over on it's back, then it returned somewhat upright? He was stunned, but came around and swam out. The fishermen refused to give a line for the aircraft, saying the water is too turbulent and the airplane would pull the boat over.
Gary said he spent less than 10 minutes in the water. They pulled him out, dried him off and gave him some of their clothes, then sat him on the pilothouse heater where he shivered uncontrollably for 50 minutes.
Sea Water Temperature there is about 49F.
A good friend of mine.
He was flying a Stinson 8 off Cattle Point in the San Juan Islands (WA). The engine quit, a water landing was in the cards. He flew across the bow of a commercial fishing boat, then plopped in. The wheels pulled the plane over on it's back, then it returned somewhat upright? He was stunned, but came around and swam out. The fishermen refused to give a line for the aircraft, saying the water is too turbulent and the airplane would pull the boat over.
Gary said he spent less than 10 minutes in the water. They pulled him out, dried him off and gave him some of their clothes, then sat him on the pilothouse heater where he shivered uncontrollably for 50 minutes.
Sea Water Temperature there is about 49F.
eh_v8_tor
Active Member
Trees or Water
Hi folks,
A very interesting thread. Here is my two cents Canadian worth on the topic.
I was witness to the aftermath of the crash of a Cessna Agtruck (C-188), and also helped recover the airframe. The crash was in northern Ontario in an area that was fairly flat with a uniform canopy of mostly mature spruce and pine trees.
The pilot was set up at low speed with full flaps intending to land on an unimproved bush strip (logging road that was made into a makeshift airstrip). He realized that he was in wrong spot! The airstrip actually started after the next bend in the road. When trying to abort the landing he got caught in the tops of the trees. When it was apparent that he was about to arrive at the scene of an accident, he cut the power. The tops of the trees sucked the plane in, it went straight over to an inverted position and came to rest with the top of the aircraft's canopy about five feet off the ground.
The pilot told me that it just felt like a giant swing ride, and was in fact one of his smoother landings! The only injuries were that he hurt his neck a little after releasing the seat belt and falling on his head, on the roof before exiting the plane.
The aircraft's prop, canopy and wing & tail leading edges were beat-up badly, but the engine and fuselage were OK.
Sorry about the long-winded post..
The point of looking at crashes is to see what went right when someone walks away unscathed. The pilot had the aircraft in a wings level attitude at low speed. It was under control and not stalled. If it stalled he would have been faced with gravity pulling him straight down at a very steep angle for about 75 feet. The deceleration at the bottom would likely have been fatal! The pancake approach would have been a bad idea in this particular case.
Also he was flying a spray plane which has been designed with crashing in mind. It has a steel tube cage around the pilot, very wide seat belts with shoulder straps, and he was wearing a helmet. There was basic survival gear in his fire resistant flight suit. He is also very lucky that a nearby tree stump didn't come through the window and impale him.
For a water landing we also have to consider being in control down to touch down. My opinion is that landing into the wind, under control at the lowest possible speed using a "soft field" technique while already wearing your life vest before take off would be best. Unless of course large waves may make landing across the swells a better idea.
Personally I would opt for crashing on land in most cases. Hypothermia is a real threat most of the year, especially near the ocean. Also if knocked unconscious or injured with a broken limb, I wouldn't swim very well.
As we've seen by the miracle on the Hudson when faced with crashing into tall buildings or inhospitable terrain, a water landing could be the right choice. See my signature below.
Happy New Year everyone. I wish you all safe flying and lots of aviation adventure for 2015.
Steve Wolfe
Hi folks,
A very interesting thread. Here is my two cents Canadian worth on the topic.
I was witness to the aftermath of the crash of a Cessna Agtruck (C-188), and also helped recover the airframe. The crash was in northern Ontario in an area that was fairly flat with a uniform canopy of mostly mature spruce and pine trees.
The pilot was set up at low speed with full flaps intending to land on an unimproved bush strip (logging road that was made into a makeshift airstrip). He realized that he was in wrong spot! The airstrip actually started after the next bend in the road. When trying to abort the landing he got caught in the tops of the trees. When it was apparent that he was about to arrive at the scene of an accident, he cut the power. The tops of the trees sucked the plane in, it went straight over to an inverted position and came to rest with the top of the aircraft's canopy about five feet off the ground.
The pilot told me that it just felt like a giant swing ride, and was in fact one of his smoother landings! The only injuries were that he hurt his neck a little after releasing the seat belt and falling on his head, on the roof before exiting the plane.
The aircraft's prop, canopy and wing & tail leading edges were beat-up badly, but the engine and fuselage were OK.
Sorry about the long-winded post..
The point of looking at crashes is to see what went right when someone walks away unscathed. The pilot had the aircraft in a wings level attitude at low speed. It was under control and not stalled. If it stalled he would have been faced with gravity pulling him straight down at a very steep angle for about 75 feet. The deceleration at the bottom would likely have been fatal! The pancake approach would have been a bad idea in this particular case.
Also he was flying a spray plane which has been designed with crashing in mind. It has a steel tube cage around the pilot, very wide seat belts with shoulder straps, and he was wearing a helmet. There was basic survival gear in his fire resistant flight suit. He is also very lucky that a nearby tree stump didn't come through the window and impale him.
For a water landing we also have to consider being in control down to touch down. My opinion is that landing into the wind, under control at the lowest possible speed using a "soft field" technique while already wearing your life vest before take off would be best. Unless of course large waves may make landing across the swells a better idea.
Personally I would opt for crashing on land in most cases. Hypothermia is a real threat most of the year, especially near the ocean. Also if knocked unconscious or injured with a broken limb, I wouldn't swim very well.
As we've seen by the miracle on the Hudson when faced with crashing into tall buildings or inhospitable terrain, a water landing could be the right choice. See my signature below.
Happy New Year everyone. I wish you all safe flying and lots of aviation adventure for 2015.
Steve Wolfe
f14av8r
Well Known Member
Shallow Water No!
Here's a link to a video of a recent ditching in shallow water. Small, open cockpit, low wing monoplane. The water was so shallow that the pilot was probably pinned in the cockpit when the plane flipped over. Fortunately, the folks on the beach flipped it back over for him. If faced with a water landing, I'll definitely choose deeper instead of shallower. Hard packed beach would be even better but I'll definitely avoid the shallow stuff right next to the beach.
Link - https://youtu.be/LOCMy3wdENg
Here's a link to a video of a recent ditching in shallow water. Small, open cockpit, low wing monoplane. The water was so shallow that the pilot was probably pinned in the cockpit when the plane flipped over. Fortunately, the folks on the beach flipped it back over for him. If faced with a water landing, I'll definitely choose deeper instead of shallower. Hard packed beach would be even better but I'll definitely avoid the shallow stuff right next to the beach.
Link - https://youtu.be/LOCMy3wdENg
donaziza
Well Known Member
My ditching procedure (or some variation)
1. turn 90 degrees to waves
2. tighten seat belts
3. starting cutting...yes I carry this tool in my airplane when over water, swamp or mountainous terraign
[/IMG]
Ah----"You're" the guy where I got this idea from 1 1/2 years ago. I put one in my 8 too. I always get strange looks and questions, but I'm sticking to it. (The original thread was about some poor guy who put his, I think it was a 6, in the marshy grasses near Martha's Vineyard, flipped, was in a couple of feet of water and drowned---he apparently thought he was landing on dry land).
I bought it at HD, and was able to cut a solid steel bar, (about an 1 1/2" wide--like a ruler, and maybe 3/32 inches thick,) in half in 90 seconds. Twice, with the same blade. One wag, here on VAF, said, one should be able to cut an RV 8 in half faster than that.
Anyone remember that oxygen thingy that James Bond wore in one of the 007 movies? Its very small, you clamp it with your teeth, and it gives you about 90 seconds of O2? Do those really exist? If so, where would one get it? Over water, "wear" the life preserver, have one of those PLB's, have a small life raft, and if they exist, one of these O2 gizmo's. Whether to try and clamp it in your teeth before hitting the water, or having it in something foolproof close to your mouth, I have no idea.
Last edited:
Infidel
Well Known Member
Ah----"You're" the guy where I got this idea from 1 1/2 years ago. I put one in my 8 too. I always get strange looks and questions, but I'm sticking to it. (The original thread was about some poor guy who put his, I think it was a 6, in the marshy grasses near Martha's Vineyard, flipped, was in a couple of feet of water and drowned---he apparently thought he was landing on dry land).
I bought it at HD, and was able to cut a solid steel bar, (about an 1 1/2" wide--like a ruler, and maybe 3/16's inches thick,) in half in 90 seconds. Twice, with the same blade. One wag, here on VAF, said, one should be able to cut an RV 8 in half faster than that.
Anyone remember that oxygen thingy that James Bond wore in one of the 007 movies? Its very small, you clamp it with your teeth, and it gives you about 90 seconds of O2? Do those really exist? If so, where would one get it? Over water, "wear" the life preserver, have one of those PLB's, have a small life raft, and if they exist, one of these O2 gizmo's. Whether to try and clamp it in your teeth before hitting the water, or having it in something foolproof close to your mouth, I have no idea.
I believe the "gizmo" can be obtained at any dive shop or nowadays through Amazon , like everything else.
This thread caused me to give isome thought I f I were to ever find myself trapped in my aircraft. Naturally, water poses some hazards such as pressure. I recently read a report on Kathrynsreport.com where an RV-4 flipped on its back (off field landing) and the pilot was stuck/trapped until help arrived. This instance would probably be my greatest concern. Considering there would likely be less than 16" clearance between terra firma and the roll bar. Granted the roll bar wasn't planted deep in the earth.
Back to this thread; if I found myself ditching in water and I was still conscious after impact, I would egress through the canopy like a raped ape! It's either that or start carrying a snorkel in my go-to bag!
http://www.spareair.com/ - Probably the most practical emergency supply.
http://noahi.com/status.htm - Looks like this is always in the "coming soon" category.
http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/182584-1.html - The article talks about a device called "breath of life" that seems similar to the spareair concept but unfortunately never made it in the market due to the cost of shipping the disposable O2 cannisters.
Can't find the "moustache" style one like you saw in the Bond movies.
http://noahi.com/status.htm - Looks like this is always in the "coming soon" category.
http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/182584-1.html - The article talks about a device called "breath of life" that seems similar to the spareair concept but unfortunately never made it in the market due to the cost of shipping the disposable O2 cannisters.
Can't find the "moustache" style one like you saw in the Bond movies.
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
I've thought about this a lot - just got back from a 7 1/2 hour trip each way to New England and realized I spent most of it considering landing spots -- and I always thought ditching in water wouldn't be so bad. (I fly in MN so we're talking about lakes, not oceans. And I never fly over the Great Lakes except offshore Cleveland sometimes)
Then I went to an FAA seminar at Oshkosh a few years ago at Oshkosh about ditching in water , and had second thoughts.
However, if it's the only option, I think I actually WOULD prefer ditching close to shore although I'm aware of the story (ies) about people drowning in shallow water. Part of it is the fact I'm a better pilot than a swimmer.
Ideally, I'd ditch where there are people nearby. I saw a video this week of an old WWII plane ditching in the UK. People ran in and flipped the plane back over.
I think any way you look at it, getting a tip-up, in particular, open is going to be difficult in any scenario. That's a tremendous volume of water to displace.
Which is why I think it's absolutely critical for everyone to have a canopy breaker installed within easy reach. I think we need to accept that we're going to be upside down, we're going to be in the dark, and we're going to want to panic, and we're going to have to accept the fact that either way, we're going to be under water.
The last step before ditching is to unlock the canopy. But I've also come to the conclusion that the last step should actually be smashing the canopy. This would at least give the passenger something to do.
I think I'd rather be trying to get out of an inverted RV through a smashed canopy in shallow water, where I can feel ground and where I have comparatively more light, then to also have to fight sensation of a sinking ship in which it's getting progressively darker.
I hope I never have to find out.
Then I went to an FAA seminar at Oshkosh a few years ago at Oshkosh about ditching in water , and had second thoughts.
However, if it's the only option, I think I actually WOULD prefer ditching close to shore although I'm aware of the story (ies) about people drowning in shallow water. Part of it is the fact I'm a better pilot than a swimmer.
Ideally, I'd ditch where there are people nearby. I saw a video this week of an old WWII plane ditching in the UK. People ran in and flipped the plane back over.
I think any way you look at it, getting a tip-up, in particular, open is going to be difficult in any scenario. That's a tremendous volume of water to displace.
Which is why I think it's absolutely critical for everyone to have a canopy breaker installed within easy reach. I think we need to accept that we're going to be upside down, we're going to be in the dark, and we're going to want to panic, and we're going to have to accept the fact that either way, we're going to be under water.
The last step before ditching is to unlock the canopy. But I've also come to the conclusion that the last step should actually be smashing the canopy. This would at least give the passenger something to do.
I think I'd rather be trying to get out of an inverted RV through a smashed canopy in shallow water, where I can feel ground and where I have comparatively more light, then to also have to fight sensation of a sinking ship in which it's getting progressively darker.
I hope I never have to find out.
Last edited:
I still think with the tip up that if I release the locks at the back and pull the pin at the front, it'll depart the aircraft PDQ when we hit the water and come to a quick stop. Yes, the cockpit will fill up faster, but the canopy will at least be out of the way. I'd still target being farther off-shore, as i'm a strong swimmer and want no chance of being trapped under the plane. I'll take my chances with the cold water.
Ditto on never wanting to test this.
Ditto on never wanting to test this.
When much younger, I used to barefoot water ski.
I was slapped silly and severely disoriented numerous times with impacts on water of only about 40 MPH.
I can't imagine what I would be like in a ditching situation with no canopy.
Not something that I would ever do, nor do I promote this idea to anyone else.
rzbill
Well Known Member
Interesting thread.
In regards to the accident scenario of being trapped upside down and drowning, I started wondering if there were attachments that would make it easy to use the oxygen tank I carry available for use underwater in an emergency.
I assume the cannulas are right out. Maybe just sticking the tube in your mouth????
In regards to the accident scenario of being trapped upside down and drowning, I started wondering if there were attachments that would make it easy to use the oxygen tank I carry available for use underwater in an emergency.
I assume the cannulas are right out. Maybe just sticking the tube in your mouth????
As I'm in lake country here in BC this has always been in the back of my mind.
Upside down in the water in a RV4, your feet dry and water coming in around your head, hoping you can hold your breath long enough so there is enough water in the cabin so you can open the canopy and hopefully slide out if you're not hung up.
Trying to get a good swing to break the canopy with anything in that position would not be easy.
I'm almost 6 ft and 220 pounds so it wouldn't take much and I'd be stuck. As it is its difficult to get into and out of at the best of times.
If your lucky enough maybe a large container ship or a tanker off the west coast would be a better option to try and land on?
Has anyone one got a fuselage that they could donate for a practice water egress?
Tim
Upside down in the water in a RV4, your feet dry and water coming in around your head, hoping you can hold your breath long enough so there is enough water in the cabin so you can open the canopy and hopefully slide out if you're not hung up.
Trying to get a good swing to break the canopy with anything in that position would not be easy.
I'm almost 6 ft and 220 pounds so it wouldn't take much and I'd be stuck. As it is its difficult to get into and out of at the best of times.
If your lucky enough maybe a large container ship or a tanker off the west coast would be a better option to try and land on?
Has anyone one got a fuselage that they could donate for a practice water egress?
Tim
rightrudder
Well Known Member
I like it! Build a water landing simulator/dunk tank, set up at Oshkosh or Sun-n-Fun. Charge $25 a ride, and time people to see how long it takes to get out.
Will never happen because of liability issues, but it's a fun idea to entertain.
A much more important consideration is the damping effect all the water pushing on the outside of the canopy will have. I wouldn't expect hitting it with a breaker bar to do much.
I have considered this, but even flying sans-helmet I would take that chance. I expect that the wheels would bring the plane to a pretty quick stop, and the speed will bleed rapidly as the nose submarines into the water. It'll be disorienting, but i'd rather be disoriented and be able to egress, than trapped under a bubble I can't open.rvbuilder2002 said:
I've also thought through the possibility of forcing one wingtip onto the water with aileron just as the tailwheel hits the water. That would convert some of the linear momentum into angular momentum, and possibly prevent turning over in the first place. It would add lateral deceleration forces to the occupants though, so more thought is needed on this.
Ideally, the solution would be to jettison the landing gear.
At least then you'd likely stay upright.Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
Rob - your idea of dipping a wingtip sounds good at first blush but doesn't work out very well for the occupants. The lateral deceleration forces working on the aircraft as a result of the asymmetric drag (angular momentum, as you put it) cause the occupants heads to move laterally. We design airplanes for forward impacts and thus have clear space in front of our heads. Not so for lateral impacts where our heads tend to bounce off hard structure. Our seat belts are also designed to provide support in the longitudinal direction.
The probability of head/neck/spine injury is greatly increased in crashes where there is lateral deceleration.
The probability of head/neck/spine injury is greatly increased in crashes where there is lateral deceleration.
water
As someone who in a past life had a lot of experience walking their wheels on water for fun and games I would plant my wheels on the around a 100mph and start easing back on the stick as my speed bleed off then a tail low at last second and hope for the best.If you fly over the water often you might want to practice up beforehand.
Bob
As someone who in a past life had a lot of experience walking their wheels on water for fun and games I would plant my wheels on the around a 100mph and start easing back on the stick as my speed bleed off then a tail low at last second and hope for the best.If you fly over the water often you might want to practice up beforehand.
Bob
Bill Boyd
Well Known Member
Might be a lot easier said than done
Dipping a wingtip first.
Let's see - we're full aft stick coming in low and slow for a full stall ditching at a few feet above mean sea level. At the last possible minute we're going to kick in full right (say) rudder and yaw the left wingtip out in front, if we can. That's going to roll us to the right and stall the inboard wing first. Left aileron to try to plant the rising left wingtip into the water is just going to deepen the stall of the right wing, increasing the right snap even more...
Best chance to pull this off might mean full right rudder and full right aileron in the hopes that it breaks straight ahead or even a little left wing first, but I'd say there's no guarantee. Not sure practicing this at altitude would even let you predict what would happen in ground effect in the real emergency.
I like the Lithium SawzAll and James Bond scuba more with each passing post here
Dipping a wingtip first.
Let's see - we're full aft stick coming in low and slow for a full stall ditching at a few feet above mean sea level. At the last possible minute we're going to kick in full right (say) rudder and yaw the left wingtip out in front, if we can. That's going to roll us to the right and stall the inboard wing first. Left aileron to try to plant the rising left wingtip into the water is just going to deepen the stall of the right wing, increasing the right snap even more...
Best chance to pull this off might mean full right rudder and full right aileron in the hopes that it breaks straight ahead or even a little left wing first, but I'd say there's no guarantee. Not sure practicing this at altitude would even let you predict what would happen in ground effect in the real emergency.
I like the Lithium SawzAll and James Bond scuba more with each passing post here
mv031161
Well Known Member
I did not get a chance to read all comments but here is mine.
I cross from KEYW to Mexico and Central America quite a lot and when I do on a fixed gear, I go knowing the aircraft can flip upon e-landing over water.
I do most of my flying wearing a Parachute or having one on board.
When over water I always fly wearing a Life Vest, have a 4 man raft, E-Pack and Small Ascend Scuba Tank.The PBELT always w me at all times together w Phone, passport and cash inside ZIPLOCK bag .
Depending on what aircraft I am flying, I can jettison the door and jump off not before making sure my PBELT, raft and epack come out w me. Open the parachute at wait for rescue. If Im flying my aerobatic aircraft, this last actions are limited and if I jump off the aircraft I will have to wait floating just w my life vest and PBELT until..........I like having my Raft while waiting for rescue since I dont like marine life swimming around me. Specially when there's a good chance blood will be present.
If I decide to ditch, what are my choices?..besides communicating to last ATC, broadcast on 121.5 and turn your PBELT ON, one is to fly the aircraft for as long in the direction to the nearest Boat, land, etc. and let the aircraft stall about 20 ft AWL (not AGL). Just let it pancake into the water eliminating as much forward movement as I can while trying most importantly prevent the aircraft to flip.
If I dont flip, egress normal and wait for rescue....
If I flip, questions are: Do I want the canopy latched or unlatched? Since I have a mechanical jettison, most likely I will choose to land with the canopy latched since it will give me additional buoyancy time to get Unstrapped and get my emergency Scuba tank in my mouth (good for 5 minutes under water)
All great in theory......what you think?
I cross from KEYW to Mexico and Central America quite a lot and when I do on a fixed gear, I go knowing the aircraft can flip upon e-landing over water.
I do most of my flying wearing a Parachute or having one on board.
When over water I always fly wearing a Life Vest, have a 4 man raft, E-Pack and Small Ascend Scuba Tank.The PBELT always w me at all times together w Phone, passport and cash inside ZIPLOCK bag .
Depending on what aircraft I am flying, I can jettison the door and jump off not before making sure my PBELT, raft and epack come out w me. Open the parachute at wait for rescue. If Im flying my aerobatic aircraft, this last actions are limited and if I jump off the aircraft I will have to wait floating just w my life vest and PBELT until..........I like having my Raft while waiting for rescue since I dont like marine life swimming around me. Specially when there's a good chance blood will be present.
If I decide to ditch, what are my choices?..besides communicating to last ATC, broadcast on 121.5 and turn your PBELT ON, one is to fly the aircraft for as long in the direction to the nearest Boat, land, etc. and let the aircraft stall about 20 ft AWL (not AGL). Just let it pancake into the water eliminating as much forward movement as I can while trying most importantly prevent the aircraft to flip.
If I dont flip, egress normal and wait for rescue....
If I flip, questions are: Do I want the canopy latched or unlatched? Since I have a mechanical jettison, most likely I will choose to land with the canopy latched since it will give me additional buoyancy time to get Unstrapped and get my emergency Scuba tank in my mouth (good for 5 minutes under water)
All great in theory......what you think?
bret
Well Known Member
So say you have a slider, the rear must travel up a couple of inches before it will slide rearward, so if you are upside down, will you need to overcome the weight of the aircraft pushing down on the canopy before you can slide it rearward to exit. I have push lock pins up front and think I will jettison the canopy just before a stall pancake onto the water. the videos I have seen of small aircraft hitting the water, most of the forward motion is decreased by the time the top of the fuse hits the water?
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
I think if I am unfortunate enough to ditch my RV-6 I will die.
donaziza
Well Known Member
Mitch, Where did you get your 5 minute emergency scuba tank?
mv031161
Well Known Member
Tank
scuba shop. This is it. http://www.spareair.com/ 57 breaths = 5 minutes if you can control anxiety that is....
scuba shop. This is it. http://www.spareair.com/ 57 breaths = 5 minutes if you can control anxiety that is....
Last edited:
bret
Well Known Member
You are Crazy! WOW.
Saville
Well Known Member
...unless, of course, there's wave action of almost any sort. I've seen this done with T-6's but always on water as flat as a mill pond. Ocean ditching? ...you won't be walking your wheels on anything.
In a former life I was a crewmember on USMC helicopters. Part of our recurring water survival training was instruction and use of the HEEDS (and later, the HABD), which was similar to the SpareAir. We were told repeatedly that despite the NAVAIR documents advertising ~2min of breathing time with the HEEDS, we'd be lucky to get a minute out of it, even in the training environment. They were absolutely right.
I can't speak to the SpareAir, but the HEEDS had to be oriented with the regulator up while in use, or it would not function.
If you do decide to go the SpareAir route, and you're not already a certified diver, I highly recommend training with it in a pool at least a few times - a ditching isn't the time to figure out how to use it.
