What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

IFR Requirements

drone_pilot

Well Known Member
Hi All,

I'm a VFR pilot asking an IFR question.

I'm going with a full Skyview system with dual 10" displays in my RV-7A. What additional equipment would I need or would you recommend for making my bird good/safe/legal for flying Instruments? I've also got the Dynon Heated pitot which I see has a new service bulletin.

As always - thanks for the valuable input!
 
While Getting my IFR I make this.....

Required Instruments:
VFR
A - Altimeter
T - Tachometer
O – Oil Temp Gauge
M – Manifold Pressure Gauge
A – Airspeed Indicator
T – Temp Gauge (if Appl.)
O – Oil Pressure Gauge
F – Fuel Gauge
L – Landing Gear Position Ind
A – Anti-Collision Lights
M – Magnetic Compass
E – E. L. T.
S – Seat Belts

VFR – NIGHT
F - Fuses
L – Landing Light
A – Anti Collision Lights
P – Position Lights
S – Source of Electric Power

IFR
G – Gyro Pitch / Attitude Ind.
(Artificial Horizon)
R - Radios
A – Altimeter w/ Knollsman
N – Navigation Equipment
D – Directional Gyro / Heading
Indicator
C - Clock
A – Alternator / Generator
R – Rate of Turn Ind. (Gyro)
S – Slip / Skid Ind. (Gyro)

Holding Pattern Entry (5 T’s)
Turn – to intercept out bound course @ 30
angle if necessary (use heading
bug)
Time – Start Time over or abeam Fix to
track out-bound leg of 1 min
Twist – OBS to inbound Course/Radial/Fix
Point to intercept course after turn
Throttle – Power Back to 85/90 KNTS
Talk – Notify ATC Entered Hold Pattern
Required Pilot Communications:

C – Change in TAS +- 10 KNTS/5%
L – Loss of Nav/Comm Radio’s
A – Anything Affecting Safety
M – On Missed Approach
D – Departure from Hold / Fix
I – Inability to Climb / Descend
>500’/m
C – Change in Assigned Altitude
T – Time & Altitude Reaching
Holding Fix / Clearance
Limit

Approach Procedures

Weather – ATIS

M – Mag Compass / Marker Beacons
I – Identify Source/ Tune Radio’s
C – Course – Inbound Heading?
E – Entry – What Kind? (Procedure Turn,
Radar Vector, Etc?)
A – Altimeter/Altitudes – Current Setting
& Attitude Profiles?
T – Time Parameter?
M – Missed Approach Procedure?

Equipment Check Intervals

ELT (91.207)
- 1 cumulative hour
- 50% of useful life expired
- Inspected every 12 months
Altimeter (91.411)
- Within 24 months
Transponder (91.413)
- Within 24 months
VOR for IFR use
- Within 30 days


It may not be 100% Complete, but it helped me memorize the key points.
IMHO, I would also add if you can afford it, duplicate as much as you can.
You may only get one chance to save your .... well you know.
(It can get nasty up there):(
I have this in PDF form and downloaded it to my foreflight documents for easy reference.
 
Last edited:
...good/safe/legal

Hi Ben,

91.205 covers the last one, the first two will receive as many opinions as there are members of VAF. Obviously redundancy is the name of the game in IFR/IMC. My panel:
DSC_2298.jpg


That is a non-W 430; b/up batts in the SV and D6. I also carry a handheld comm (belt and suspenders). If I was building my panel today, I would be using a 650W for sure. Honestly, the level of capability available to experimental aviation is incredible - especially when I think back to finger to low altitude chart, plates strapped to my leg, and watching my RMI needle bounce back and forth 45' either side of center outbound on an NDB approach.

Without getting into personal opinion about IFR in ASEL, etc, you already have awesome capability with SV (dual 10" to boot). I would add a second comm for sure, a reliable backup AI, then the nav source. Even though it is $$, I don't think the 650 can be beat. You then have one of your comms and ILS capability. Add Dynon's new control heads and you have an A/C with remarkable functionality. I am truly glad I learned to fly instruments with steam because the glass SA is just really simple in comparison - just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
There is no one correct answer. All flying involves risk. With ifr flying, you add the risk of flight instrument and/or radio navigation failure.
For some pilots, they are willing to accept the risk of flying with the bare minimum equipment. Others will settle for nothing less than triple redundancy everywhere, including dual alternators and batteries. Most are somewhere in between. For myself, I would not feel comfortable without a second set of flight instruments completely independent, including software, of the first set. So I have a D6 to back up the GRT HX, HS. Also a Trio autopilot. But I did not put in a second (E buss) electrical system, so my worse case scenario is a direct short to the primary buss, taking out the alternator and battery. I'm then left with the D6 and its two hour backup battery, and handheld VOR and handheld GPS, to find an airport within 2 hours.
 
Last edited:
A few corrections to the required equipment post:
First, for EAB aircraft, nothing is required for day-vfr flight. Assuming your op limitations are the standard "night and ifr authorized if you follow far 91.205" then the day list applies, too, for night or ifr operations.
MP, OAT, and landing light are not required, although it is standard practice to have MP with CS prop installations.
Slip-skid is not a gyro.
 
Ken, Nice list!

I always liked this one since I was in the northeast and ATC would spit out a clearance at warp speed!

C ? Cleared to
R ? Route
A ? Altitude
F ? Frequency
T ? Transponder code
 
To Ben, the OP of this thread. All the replies have been good. I have just gone through this process the last two or three years and just passed my biannual IFR check ride. Before doing any IFR work I had completely different thoughts as to what equipment would be required. I would suggest that you get some IFR training with an instructor, in actual IMC conditions. This will give you a much greater appreciation for what is required and what your personal comfort levels are. My personal IFR limits are a lot different then I thought they would be prior to sticking my head in the clouds. It is serious business and before you spend any money on equipment get some training.
 
. I would suggest that you get some IFR training with an instructor, in actual IMC conditions. This will give you a much greater appreciation for what is required and what your personal comfort .

When I learned to fly instruments we had one VOR and an ADF. Everyone thought that was just fine. Now it seems like you need dual GPS. I am not recommending going back to the old ways, but getting some time with an instructor is great advice. Even if it is only a couple of flights. You will least get exposure to the system and will have a better perspective to make your decision.

I am building an IFR aircraft, but I have no plans on flying all day in the crud with my RV-7. IFR departure and maybe arrival if the minimums are high enough.
 
I am also a VFR pilot. I have been told/am under the impression that some "certified" equipment is an FAA requirement for IFR flight, particularly a GPS unit. Neither the Dynon nor the GRT glass panels qualify even if you have dual screens and dual gps units by these manufacturers. Is this notion correct?

Jim
RV 14 emp and wings done
WAITING for fuse
Dues pai
 
I would recommend you build a a simple, day/night airplane with your 2 10" screens, one maybe two radios and a transponder.

After you've flown the airplane for a little while, then decide if you want to spend the money on the gear to fly IFR. The cash you save will buy you a nice engine and prop, or a LOOOOOT of Avgas.

Our first panel was over the top, dual G3X, garmin stack from the GTN650 down, etc. My current panel is redundant everything, skyview, GTN650, etc. Someday when it's time to overhaul the panel, everything will be coming out and light/simple will be the motivator. Mean while, if it's IFR, I'm driving. At MOST I'll use it to shoot an approach if it's above mins but less than VFR.

I fly for a major airline and the military part time, so my desire to be single engine in the goo maybe substantially lower than yours. However, you're not really going to sacrifice much by going VFR, and you may find that you like the weight and money saved. If not it's a capability you can add later.

The RV is great at many things, but a solid IFR platform it is not.
 
I am also a VFR pilot. I have been told/am under the impression that some "certified" equipment is an FAA requirement for IFR flight, particularly a GPS unit. Neither the Dynon nor the GRT glass panels qualify even if you have dual screens and dual gps units by these manufacturers. Is this notion correct?

Jim
RV 14 emp and wings done
WAITING for fuse
Dues pai

There are three things I can think of that must meet TSO standards ("certified"):
GPS used under IFR; transponder used under any flight rules; and, starting in 2020, gps position source and transponder used for ADSB-out.
So the gps units sold by Dynon or GRT do not have TSO certification and cannot be used for IFR. However, the EFIS units may be used as AI, airspeed, altimeter, etc. (altimeter must pass biennial check, along with the static system).
 
I would recommend you build a a simple, day/night airplane with your 2 10" screens, one maybe two radios and a transponder.....Mean while, if it's IFR, I'm driving...The RV is great at many things, but a solid IFR platform it is not.

Exactly!!!
 
IFR flying is not only for flying in clouds, when going on cross country filing IFR simplifies your life and gives you more information about traffic, less chances to violate airspaces since you get clearances and last but not least ATC is always following your flight. I also agree that any single engine airplane is not intended to fly solid IFR down to low minimums, however having a properly equipped IFR airplane allows you more flexibility when the weather is marginal VFR or even light IFR.
 
The RV is great at many things, but a solid IFR platform it is not.

Say what?

Now I realise the RV10 is a slightly better IFR platform than say a -7,-8, and a bit more still than a -6 but gee, we are splitting hairs.

With about 800+ hours of IFR flying in a -10 now and recent G36 for comparison, the G36 is a bit heavier and such in the bumps but I must say the -10 (ours anyway) is actually better in some respects.

I know folk who did their CIR in a -7A and as newbies fly very well in it.

I have very strong opinions on what makes a good IFR system, redundant items and power etc, but outside of that, you need 4 x GE's and some more crew, including a call button for coffee before you get a significantly better platform. Cost is an issue for the latter option for most folk. :p
 
Second "Say What!".

Personal comfort level and familiarity with your equipment temper all these statements about single engine IFR.

There are a lot of pilots flying the Bonanza, Cirrus, 210, Corvallis, etc. that use their airplanes for so called HARD IFR. They didn't spend almost a million dollars to punch thru the clouds and go merrily on their way. I ask, what's the difference between theirs and ours if you realize we just flat DO NOT do ice and convective flying. You either trust it in the clouds or you don't.

For me, my airplane is a tool and I use it accordingly. It's equipped with multiple backup systems and I recognize its and MY limitations.

I do get a little peeved hearing it's not a suitable IFR platform. I have over 40 years of professional flying experience in the big stuff and fast stuff. It's a personal choice, not a mechanical one.

As for equipping it, legal and really usable are two vastly different expense levels.
 
I do get a little peeved hearing it's not a suitable IFR platform.

The RV can be "suitable" for IFR/IMC, but I don't think ever be "solid". I suppose that with enough equipment you can keep the margins of safety "well enough" for some, but just not enough for me.

To the OP I would say, that you really need to sit down and consider exactly what set up you would want in order to shoot an ILS approach with 200' ceilings and 1/2 mile vis, at night with Ice and Thunderstorms with LOT's of turbulence...and a 20kt crosswind to a missed approach with a hold, while experiencing vertigo and spacial disorientation all with your back up instruments, low fuel and a sick passenger.

It's not an impossible scenario and you will get training during your Instrument Rating to prepare you for that. For myself, it's just easier to budget an occasional motel for the night when VFR/VMC turn south.

I admit though, I am a "fair-weather" flyer and literally just booked a commercial flight 30 minutes ago because a cross country flight this week has weather (T.S.) in the forecast.
 
Last edited:
To the OP I would say, that you really need to sit down and consider exactly what set up you would want in order to shoot an ILS approach with 200' ceilings and 1/2 mile vis, at night with Ice and Thunderstorms with LOT's of turbulence...and a 20kt crosswind to a missed approach with a hold, while experiencing vertigo and spacial disorientation all with your back up instruments, low fuel and a sick passenger.

.

I've been flying IFR for nearly 25 years, and I have never put myself into a position anything close to the nightmare you describe. The capably-equipped RV (like mine) will handle the instrument conditions just fine. It's up to the PILOT -- not the plane -- to recognize his/her own limitations and abide by their own minimums...
 
Now I realise the RV10 is a slightly better IFR platform than say a -7,-8, and a bit more still than a -6 but gee, we are splitting hairs.
Currently, there is no viable option to install a turbine in the 2 place RVs. The 10 ... maybe.

There are a lot of pilots flying the Bonanza, Cirrus, 210, Corvallis, etc. that use their airplanes for so called HARD IFR. They didn't spend almost a million dollars to punch thru the clouds and go merrily on their way. I ask, what's the difference between theirs and ours ...
With the exception of the Cirrus and Corvallis which can have de-ice and fly into know icing conditions, nothing.

Just because they do it ... doesn't make it safe. e.g the Cirrus that came apart over Soda Springs leaving Reno.

Punching through a layer or flying in a rather benign IFR environment with a high ceiling is not the same as so called HARD IFR.

The Wife's requirements for flying around in nasty storms is hardware that the pros fly around in nasty stuff in ... beyond that .. nothing matters.
 
Personal comfort level and familiarity with your equipment temper all these statements about single engine IFR.

There are a lot of pilots flying the Bonanza, Cirrus, 210, Corvallis, etc. that use their airplanes for so called HARD IFR. They didn't spend almost a million dollars to punch thru the clouds and go merrily on their way. I ask, what's the difference between theirs and ours if you realize we just flat DO NOT do ice and convective flying. You either trust it in the clouds or you don't.

For me, my airplane is a tool and I use it accordingly. It's equipped with multiple backup systems and I recognize its and MY limitations.

I do get a little peeved hearing it's not a suitable IFR platform. I have over 40 years of professional flying experience in the big stuff and fast stuff. It's a personal choice, not a mechanical one.

As for equipping it, legal and really usable are two vastly different expense levels.

It's a philosophical discussion, but I'll take a stab.

I think you just answered your own question. They have a half million dollars worth of airplane to do the job. I've flown all those you listed, minus the Corvalis, and they are much better IFR platforms than an RV. They have the panel size, the power, redundancy. With all those things, they still have the capacity to be useful.

If you want to empty your wallet to equip an RV as such, by all means. Mine is equipped as such, I'm starting to wish it wasn't. What I've come to find is that for a vast majority of the flying that people do with these airplanes, light and simple is what you want. Even just mechanically disconnecting the autopilot servos... the airplane handles just so much nicer. Sacrificing the beauty of how these planes fly, to load it up with thousands worth of gizmos you'll use a small percentage of the time.... like you said it's personal preference. If you want to equip yours as a tool to be used, go for it. I'm not saying you can't. The 8 however reminds me of, and has all the characteristics of a little fighter, and if I could make it 200 #'s lighter I would in a second. Mine is more of a toy that I'll use for small trips with the wife. The more I fly my 8, the more I realize I have less and less desire to fly it in the clouds/weather.

This is why I say build it, and decide later if you want the capability. When you realize what an amazing little airplane it is, you may not want to sacrifice all the things that make it great to load it up with IFR kit.

I didn't say it wasn't suitable. Suitable is determined by what is on the panel. However it's got such a light wing loading, and it's so light on the controls that a solid/stable platform it is not. All the things that make it such a beautiful airplane to fly.

Disclaimer, I haven't flown the 10 and statements don't apply. That was made to be more of a traveling family wagon.
 
I've been flying IFR for nearly 25 years, and I have never put myself into a position anything close to the nightmare you describe. The capably-equipped RV (like mine) will handle the instrument conditions just fine. It's up to the PILOT -- not the plane -- to recognize his/her own limitations and abide by their own minimums...

Thankfully, most people will never have to face the challenge that I described. But, you do have to train and prepare for it. I have been in those conditions, fortunately it was with a crew and a jet. If I were setting up my RV for IFR there's no question that it would need to be equipped for that.

Most of the scenario is actually pretty easily managed. Autopilot with VNAV...dual independent PFD's (preferably different and isolated MFG's and Pitot/Static inputs), a third PFD with GPS/AHRS derived data, Throw in dual NAV/COM's, 2nd alternator, extra standby batteries, sick sack, and a good alternate or 2.

And most of all...REALLY good training and currency.
 
Thankfully, most people will never have to face the challenge that I described. But, you do have to train and prepare for it. I have been in those conditions, fortunately it was with a crew and a jet. If I were setting up my RV for IFR there's no question that it would need to be equipped for that.

Most of the scenario is actually pretty easily managed. Autopilot with VNAV...dual independent PFD's (preferably different and isolated MFG's and Pitot/Static inputs), a third PFD with GPS/AHRS derived data, Throw in dual NAV/COM's, 2nd alternator, extra standby batteries, sick sack, and a good alternate or 2.

And most of all...REALLY good training and currency.

Tony,

I understand your points. My point is that I don't put myself in that position, i.e., I'm not flying if the forecast is anything remotely close to the ice and ceiling-minimums scenario you describe. When I had a SR22 and when I had a Bonanza, I flew them the same way. It's a personal choice. I choose to be conservative in my IFR flying. My RV is more than capable of doing what I need it to do.
 
Tony,

I understand your points. My point is that I don't put myself in that position, i.e., I'm not flying if the forecast is anything remotely close to the ice and ceiling-minimums scenario you describe. When I had a SR22 and when I had a Bonanza, I flew them the same way. It's a personal choice. I choose to be conservative in my IFR flying. My RV is more than capable of doing what I need it to do.


You are right Arlen, a good solid set of Personal Minimums should be the first step in IFR planning (and VFR also).
 
Tony,

I understand your points. My point is that I don't put myself in that position, i.e., I'm not flying if the forecast is anything remotely close to the ice and ceiling-minimums scenario you describe. When I had a SR22 and when I had a Bonanza, I flew them the same way. It's a personal choice. I choose to be conservative in my IFR flying. My RV is more than capable of doing what I need it to do.

Exactly. No one outside of the heavy iron world has training in flying close to thunderstorms - it's much too risky without real time weather, de-ice, second crew, etc. Avoiding them by a large margin is just common sense for typical GA aircraft.

Motels are for IFR flying, too.
 
IFR EFIS GPS vs Garmin EFIS Only Product

I currently fly Cherokee IFR with Garmin 430.

And a few pages back the pointed question of what certified equipment is needed for "legal" IFR and the answer included GPS.

So, I'm thinking why do I want EFIS with GPS since I've gotta have a Garmin 430 (or legal equivalent) anyway?

Isn't there a EFIS only product with auto pilot that will work with Garmin 430 and save me a few bucks on the price of the EFIS? Seems like all the EFIS makers are proud to include very cool GPS, maps, terrain, etc. But for legal IFR it can't be primary. It is just back up.

So in practice when I go fly IFR plan, I'll have to use the Garmin 430. My iPAD can do back. I need EFIS only solution coupled to 430.

Is there an EFIS only product out there?

thanks
 
Steve, you wouldn't save any money with this stripped down product you're looking for.. plus terrain, and map are very nice features you actually really want to have :) As for internal GPS.. if it comes for free.. why not take it... Keep in mind these are cheap GPS'es (roughly $50 or so) so even if excluded, manufactures wouldn't really drop the price significantly.
 
With the GRT their vfr gps is an option. Not very expensive, but you can save a few hundred dollars and go without it. That is what I did. I do have a G420w for ifr work. But some still just use vors and save more, with less capability. Your choice.
 
So, I'm thinking why do I want EFIS with GPS since I've gotta have a Garmin 430 (or legal equivalent) anyway?

As has been said, the price difference is very little GPS/no GPS. Why I like it - I fly behind the Dynon Skyview, and even though I'm very happy the SV map now overlays my 430 route/approaches, I fly VFR much more often than IFR. Other than a simple direct to, the SV is much more friendly for on the fly changes/adjustments. What was very nice (before AOPA "upgraded" their online flight planner:mad:) is when I was able to save routes to a thumbdrive and load and go - can't do that with a 430 - not easily anyway.

Unfortunately I can't find anything free that will export .GPX
 
EFIS Only or Legal EFIS GPS for IFR

Yea you hit the point. If the EFIS makers couldn't sell EFIS only for much less price than current models with GPS then I guess EFIS with GPS is what we get and add a Garmin 430 (or equivalent) for "legal" IFR.

Course this begs the question, couldn't EFIS GPS be deemed legal IFR for experimentals? They work just as good, maybe better. And I'll bet they would pass the same test criteria. Seems inconsistent that experimentals can have non-certified equipment, but when it comes to GPS, it doesn't count. Do VOR receivers have to be "Certified" for legal IFR in an experimental? I don't think so? So why do GPS'es have to be "certified" in experimentals? But I guess this is a question for the government, FAA etc,. Maybe over time this will change.

thanks
 
Yea you hit the point. If the EFIS makers couldn't sell EFIS only for much less price than current models with GPS then I guess EFIS with GPS is what we get and add a Garmin 430 (or equivalent) for "legal" IFR.

Course this begs the question, couldn't EFIS GPS be deemed legal IFR for experimentals? They work just as good, maybe better. And I'll bet they would pass the same test criteria. Seems inconsistent that experimentals can have non-certified equipment, but when it comes to GPS, it doesn't count. Do VOR receivers have to be "Certified" for legal IFR in an experimental? I don't think so? So why do GPS'es have to be "certified" in experimentals? But I guess this is a question for the government, FAA etc,. Maybe over time this will change.

thanks

This subject comes up from time to time.
VFR-day: there are no equipment FARs, do what you like
Night or ifr: your operating limitations almost certainly requires you to follow FAR 91.205, just like normally certified aircraft. For ifr, it says you must have "suitable" nav equipment. What does that mean? Well, for VORs, DMEs, etc, the FARs are silent (part 91) and, in fact, there are many normally certified aircraft flying around with non-TSO'd VORs or DMEs. But, amazingly, "suitable RNAV(gps)" is defined in FAR 1.1 (definitions). That reg says to use FAA guidance material (e.g., AIM, a/c, etc) to determine what is suitable. This guidance material always references TSO'd gps units. You are not required to use a TSO'd box, but you must show that it is substantially equivalent to the TSO. And the TSOs are so complex that showing 'substantially equivalent' is virtually impossible for a non TSO'd gps. For example, the TSO requires certain management controls on software writers! Is this overkill? iMHO, yes, but that is where things currently stand.
 
TSO'd GPS units have a built in self-test feature..RAIM or Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring. Imagine yourself flying an approach to at or near minimums and what the outcome could be Without RAIM and the unit didn't warn you of a failure mode.

Best,
 
Isn't there a EFIS only product with auto pilot that will work with Garmin 430 and save me a few bucks on the price of the EFIS? Seems like all the EFIS makers are proud to include very cool GPS, maps, terrain, etc. But for legal IFR it can't be primary. It is just back up.

Is there an EFIS only product out there?

Check out the Dynon D100 plus HS34. No moving map, no terrain, just a solid EFIS with the capability you mentioned. Add servos and it becomes an autopilot (no vertical glideslope following on the AP though). If you want engine monitoring too, make it the D180 instead of the D100.
 
Thanks John!

Ken, Nice list!

I always liked this one since I was in the northeast and ATC would spit out a clearance at warp speed!

C ? Cleared to
R ? Route
A ? Altitude
F ? Frequency
T ? Transponder code

I use this one too.
You'll get a kick outa this, several weeks ago I flew into Macon TRSA for the 1st time VFR. Departing VFR, the tower spit out my clearance IFR style! C-R-A-F-T! I had no idea it was comming, so I looked or sounded like a putz, "um, unprepared, say again" it's not so hard when you know what's coming, but it can pile up on you quick, when you're not expecting it!
I'll be ready next time.:eek:
 
ADSB-out also requires WAAS - pretty sure.

There are three things I can think of that must meet TSO standards ("certified"):
GPS used under IFR; transponder used under any flight rules; and, starting in 2020, gps position source and transponder used for ADSB-out.
So the gps units sold by Dynon or GRT do not have TSO certification and cannot be used for IFR. However, the EFIS units may be used as AI, airspeed, altimeter, etc. (altimeter must pass biennial check, along with the static system).

+1,
Additionally, I've been told not only does the GPS have to be cert, but also WAAS.
 
Negative - non-WAAS affects your alternate planning, however.

You have to read the title line. He was referring to ADSB out in 2020, and that TSO requires WAAS to get the accuracy.

Non WAAS gps can be used for ifr if they meet TSO 129. As you noted, there are operational restrictions, including the requirement to have a VOR on board. No new TSO 129 approvals are being given out.
 
Back
Top