Prop Strike!! Know your pilot!!

For this first post I am simply going to state facts (or facts as I perceived them). I will refer to the other individuals involved simply as "the pilot" or "someone on the ground" etc.

As a new pilot I would like some commentary on what I am about to describe. I would like some comment as to whether you feel these actions (of mine) were correct. There are some things now that, having survived and learned from this experience, that I wish I would have done differently. I would also like some commentary on the actions of the other pilot. This pilot is my senior in both age and experience. I will provide my commentary and opinion after some discussion.

The plane that I am speaking about belongs to a flying club of which both I and the pilot are members. I am being careful about the details (names, places, etc.) because I'm not quite sure how to proceed at this point. I would appreciate some advice on that as well.



On 6/7/08 myself, XXX, XXX, and XXX (the pilot) prepared for a flight in XXX a Cessna 182. The pilot was left seat PIC for this flight and I was right seat. XXX and XXX were backseat passengers (both non-pilots). This was my first flight in XXX and any C182 for that matter.

The weather before take-off could be described as good visibility with broken skies at an undetermined altitude; we were able to complete the entire flight without penetrating any clouds. The winds were high but at an unknown velocity (I had called off our scheduled flight at 8am that morning due to the winds being 18024G30KT).

On our initial run-up all systems appeared to be operating normal. The only discrepancy was the lack of indication from the vacuum suction gauge. It did not seem to be responding with any variation of engine rpm. The instrument warning light, however, would turn off with an increase in rpm from idle. A few radio calls were made by the pilot to speak with someone regarding the lack of indication from the vacuum gauge; these were not successful.

The pilot reviewed the V speeds for the aircraft on the back of the check list. He noted particularly the Vr and Vy speeds. The pilot called out our airspeeds as we began to accelerate and noted, upon reaching Vr, that he would “wait a little bit longer.” He then rotated the airplane and began our climb. Several times during the climb the stall warning sounded, sometimes for extended periods.

After our initial climb-out the pilot successfully handed the controls off to me. I made a turn towards the east as we continued our climb. I then made a turn to the north and continued the climb. When we were approximately east of the airport the pilot successfully took control of the aircraft. He began to demonstrate the various equipment on the C182 specifically the autopilot and its functionality.

At this point I asked what the pattern altitude was at the airport. After some contemplation he reported that the airport was at 1400 feet and that the pattern altitude was 2400 feet. He then stated that we should climb to pattern altitude. I noted that we were above pattern altitude (approx 2500-2700 feet) but made no comment. He adjusted the autopilot for a constant rate climb and leveled off at 3400 feet.

The pilot then began maneuvering us back to the airport by occasionally making adjustments to the heading bug and allowing the autopilot to turn the plane. He stated that we would fly to the east and then maneuver to enter a left downwind for the active runway. In route to the airport he stated that we were at pattern altitude, “Actually we are at 3400 feet,” I stated. “Oh right. Let’s descend to 2400.” The pilot continued to use the autopilot to make maneuvers until on a left downwind for the active runway. He made a radio call that we were on a left downwind for the active runway.

Abeam the numbers of the active runway the pilot initiated the pre landing checklist. One of the checklist items, application of carb heat, was not completed. When he retarded power I noticed that he had not yet adjusted the prop control from its full forward position for the duration of the flight.

We began turning our base leg and he made an additional radio call that we were on base leg. He called for 10 degrees of flaps and I successfully added them. I noticed that our airspeed was above the white arc but made no comment. On our turn to final approach I noted that our altitude was approximately 2300 feet.

On final approach the pilot added 20 degrees of flaps. The airplane began to nose up and lose airspeed and the stall horn began to sound. The pilot began rolling the trim wheel down, towards him, applying back trim stating “the autopilot added a lot of trim”. I reached forward and applied forward pressure on the yoke to bring the nose of the plane down and regain airspeed. During this maneuver we gained altitude.

Soon after this application of flaps the pilot retracted the flaps to 10 degrees. He continued his approach to landing on a fairly stable glide slope falling below glide slope as we approached the end of the runway. Crossing the numbers I again noted that we were above the white arc and still had 10 degrees of flaps.

As he began to flare the airplane began drifting to the left of center line. He used a back and forth motion on the yoke to adjust the sink rate and made contact with the runway. The plane bounced back into the air. The plane struck the ground again and again bounced into the air; the second impact with the ground was harder than the first. The airplane hit the ground a third time and again bounced into the air. At this point I said “Apply power, go around,” to which his response was (approximately), “Uhh yeah. Uhh, umm, okay.”

The pilot applied power and called for flaps up. I stated that we should wait until we have established a positive rate of climb. I waited until we were further above the runway and verified that we had a positive rate of climb before I retracted the flaps. Approximately at the end of the runway I realized that no radio call had been made regarding our actions or intentions and so I reported that we were going around.

On the second pattern, someone on the ground inquired as to whether we had a prop strike on that last bounce to which the pilot replied that it was pretty hard but that it was a negative on the prop strike. The pattern was flown fairly normal, with approximately the same altitude as we began our final approach and the pilot stated that he would stay with 10 degrees flaps this time.

Once on the ground with the engine stopped we discovered that we had in fact struck the prop on, presumably, the third bounce.

Ouch!

Wow! An important lesson, sorry that you had to learn it in this way. In answer to your main question, it sounds like you did very well. When confronted with inept or flat incompetent actions in an airplane generally the only safe action (unless the danger is imminent) is to start talking, go into the instructor mode and try to correct the problem. Getting into a shouting match won't help. A few observations:

1. The lack of a vacuum indication should have been a "no-go." I know that it was a VFR flight, but there was an FAR violation right there.

2. I'm interested in the reliance on the autopilot and the seeming lack of situational awareness on the part of the PIC. I would be interested in his background and recent experience.

3. The landing problem is a classic PIO (pilot induced oscillation.) The tendency to get "behind the airplane" and make corrections that are out of sync with the problem. This can be aggravated by an aft CG. How big were the back seat passengers?

4. The Cessna 182 has a rather "tender" nose wheel/firewall. The airplane should be examined very carefully. I wouldn't be surprised if the firewall is buckled.

Overall an ugly experience, but it sounds like you handled it well. I won't go into the speech on knowing who you are flying with.

John Clark ATP CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Not cool. It doesn't really surprise me though. As a flight instructor I have flown with many people. From thousands of hours to 0. The best lesson I ever learned was not to trust anyone I fly with.

A 182 tends to have a heavy nose. Sounds like he came in to hot, hit hard enough to cause a bounce then handled the problem incorrectly. He was probably porpousing on the bounces as well. All that, combined with the heavy nose and the crosswind is probably why he had a prop strike. As a rule of thumb - only let the airplane bounce twice before adding power to either go around or as a cushion if you have the plane under control.

That's a guess anyway. I have seen some poeple that would let that kind of situtation go if I didn't intervene. The good news is, no body got hurt and it was only a prop strike (even though it will be a pain in the wallet). And, I bet he will never do it again. lesson learned (hopefully)

Edit: As to your actions, from what I saw, you seemed to do the best you could and what you should in your situation. The one thing that i would advise you to do in the future, is don't let another pilot's age, experience, ratings, certificates, or anything intimidate you if you see something being done which you know to be wrong. (At least inquire as to why they are doing something) (It doesn't like you did what you should have based on your comentary during the flight.)

Did anybody complete a Weight and Balance? How heavy were the front passengers vs. the passengers in back? Did you have full fuel tanks? Judging from the comments you made about the initial climb out, it could be that you were over gross and too far forward on the CG.

Thank you very much for your input.

Having survived this incident there are a lot of things that I have learned that will change my approach to flying.

1. Know your pilot! This pilot has approxamatley 170 hours total time; I am uncertain as to what his recent experience is. However, before the flight one of the backseat passengers relayed a story about a recent trip to Addison Airport in the Dallas airport. He stated that the pilot came in too hot, too high and, "I didn't think we were going to make the end of the runway." These two data points together make me seriously question the ability of this pilot. I told my wife afterward that we will not be making anymore flights with this individual for a while.
2. Speak up/grab the controls! I now wish that I would've said something about several things. The vacuum gauge made me a little nervous but I assumed he had flown the plane before. Further, someone had flown the plane just prior to us taking off; I now wish I would've said something about it and called the flight. The flaps, the mis-read altimeter, etc. I will no longer keep my mouth shut when I observe things like this; I'm just glad I'm alive to be able to apply the lesson learned. I was completly out of my element sitting in the right seat and was not that comfortable with the prospect of taking over the controls. I've already talked to my instructor about getting some right seat time.
3. Go around! After Saturday's incident, I am fairly certain that my liklihood to initiate a go-around will be higher. I have only done about 3 go-arounds that weren't intentional. One just last week on my first landing with a passenger (this can't be how my wife remembers her first landing with me, "it was kind of bumpy").


Aside from the seemingly complete lack of attention to potential safety issues (and my subsequent failure to point out said issues), what really irked me about the whole situation was the non-existent response to the nose high-attitude induced by the application of additional flaps. Additionally, his (to me) failure to consider the go-around until after I told him to do so. My feeling is that his intention was to continue to try and land the plane; I wasn't about to sit around and see what the fourth "landing" was going to be like.

Thanks again for your input. I feel like this was a great learning experience and will make me a better and safer pilot.

bergroup said:

Did anybody complete a Weight and Balance?

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Not that I am aware of. I have made lots of flights where I have not computed a W&B; but that is only because I have done it before for the given scenario and know the results (i.e. solo in the C152 with no baggage or pax, I've done it several times, I know the results).

bergroup said:

How heavy were the front passengers vs. the passengers in back?

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The front seat passengers were 175 and I would guess 200-225. The back seat passengers were 110 and, I would guess, 190-210.

bergroup said:

Did you have full fuel tanks? Judging from the comments you made about the initial climb out, it could be that you were over gross and too far forward on the CG.

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No we did not have full fuel tanks. My initial thoughts on the stall horn was due to the high wind gusts. My thoughts on climb out was that we were exceptionally nose high for the terrain (flat and forever) and that our airspeed was pretty low given the wind gusts.

Conducting a crew briefing can go a long way to mitigating the uncomfortable situation of being with someone who is more experienced but is less proficient than you are. It gives you an excuse to talk about recent flying experience and division of crew duties. One of the terms we use in our briefings (US Army Scout pilot) is "Excessive Professional Courtesy". Specifically we highlight that no matter what rank, experience level, or number of hours the other person may have, we won't let it get in the way of acting as a crew. There is no place in the cockpit for someone to be reluctant to announce deviation from good practice because they are more experienced. That being said, if it's just a matter of technique and does not affect the safety of flight, I'll usually let it go until the postflight AAR (bull session). Otherwise, I owe it to me and the other guy to say something.

Crew briefs don't have to "kill" the fun atmosphere of a flight. They can be informal and laid back as long as they hit the important points. A crew briefing checklist can help spur your memory as well as give you an excuse to "insult" the other guys intelligence because, after all, you are just following the checklist.

Just my $.02

In response to your situation I think you should consider contacting the local FSDO and asking who is the Aviation Saftey Counselor for your area and relay to that person your experience with the inividual. You never know when someone may be incapcitated in some way either physical or mental or taking some medication that they should not be flying with. Consider the two comunication rule, if the pilot flying does not respond to your input after two times trying to get your point across then consider taking control of the aircraft. Do not let it get to the point of an accident or incident.

Best

Bill

The pilot definitely needs a 3 hour BFR.

From your description, the entire flight was screwed up - intending to fly at 2400' and simultaneously climbing to 3400', never getting the airplane stabilized on final while messing with the auto pilot and getting the stall warning warning to come on, not knowing when to go around after using a terrible technique of pumping it down, feeling for the runway, it was not a good day at all. Thanks to your very timely command "Go Around", it could have been much worse.

170 hours total time is nothing. The guy needs to be retrained before he kills himself and those with him and if he can't be retrained he needs to be grounded. We need more such proactive reaction to very bad flying.

Good report and I hope it all can be resolved peacefully and constructively. The pilot obviously passed a PPL check ride at one time and simply drifted off the page since.

I don't know that a bad landing constitutes calling the "air cops" on him. I would notify the appropriate person in the flying club though.

I do agree that an airplane is not the place to have too much pride or to hold back when your safety is involved.

I've taken the controls from a senior person before simply because they had little time in type and hadn't flown a little airplane in years. (flare 40' above the runway) I also have taken control from a friend who was about to let an x-wind push us off a 100' wide runway. I never look at it as if I were the better pilot. I simply was more aware of the particular situation.

You can also be creative as to avoid a pissing match for control with him while flying. "Mind if I give it a try? I am really good at landing in an x-wind"

Every time I fly it is a new experience for me. I think you have learned from this experience and it has already made you a safer pilot.

Sid,
An Aviation Saftey Counselor is not the "air cops" it is a person that the FSDO has available to give training to a needy airman. This inividual is in need of additional training before he kills someone.
This is much more than just a bad landing a prop strike was involved and that could have escalated into a disaster.
Bill

Rabidsnipe said:

1. Know your pilot! This pilot has approxamatley 170 hours total time; I am uncertain as to what his recent experience is. However, before the flight one of the backseat passengers relayed a story about a recent trip to Addison Airport in the Dallas airport. He stated that the pilot came in too hot, too high and, "I didn't think we were going to make the end of the runway." ....

3. Go around! After Saturday's incident, I am fairly certain that my liklihood to initiate a go-around will be higher. I have only done about 3 go-arounds that weren't intentional. One just last week on my first landing with a passenger (this can't be how my wife remembers her first landing with me, "it was kind of bumpy").

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#1 - Yikes. ADS is 7200ft with about 1000 of DT on either end.

#3 - Absolutely. Lots of incidents / accidents could be avoided by going around. Unfortunately, most pilots tend look down on others who execute a go around, which is unfortunate.

As others have suggested, a thorough BFR seems to be in order. Hopefully the pilot values their own life enough that they will take it seriously.

TODR

First off I don't think you can fly a certified airplane with a vacuum pump not working. At least it will need a placecard stating that it is inop.

Second, it seemed that you knew more than the PIC on this flight.

Third, I wouldn't want to fly an aircraft that had a prop strike, without being properly check first. So I guess you know how I feel about this one, report it.

I would count yourself very lucky you made it back on the ground. I worry about people flying out there like this every day and believe me, I come across people with this kind of experience quit often, scares the heck out of me. I call this pilot the gadget pilot. If the gadget doesn't work they make them work, if not... well what happened to you happens.

I agree about "gadget" pilots. Without basic stick and rudder skills (which, by the way...fewer and fewer CFI's have) no amount of autopilot or glass panel familiarity will solve the basic issue of flying the airplane, posessing situational awareness or "staying ahead" of the airplane. With 170 hrs TT, I wonder whether this pilot had ever landed a 182 at what was probably a high gross loading. Bouncing a landing in a 182 with rear seat passengers is almost always a recipe for a bent firewall. Scary story, but aviation is full of people who should be passengers instead of pilots. I lucked out when I learned to fly my own 182...my CFI had over 5000 hrs of commercial time in one and could play it like a fiddle. One of the things he repeatedly stressed to my wife and I on was how to handle botched landings in a nose heavy aircraft.
I'm reminded of the intention of transition training in our RV's...which is not to teach us to fly, but to explore the edges and learn the tendencies (good and bad) of the specific flying machines we've built. There's more to flying our RVs than simply learning to land and take off in a lightly loaded plane on a long runway with no crosswind.

Two Important Things To Do

A lot of good advice has been given already, and I agree you handled yourself well. As a newly minted pilot it's easy to think that those with more hours (when you have 50 hours in the log book 170 does sound like a lot) know everything. Let me tell you, they don't! As a pilot you learn something new on every flight. I have just over 200 hours and I'm still an neophyte, and I tell myself that every time I take to the skies. As they say, there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots.

Two things that should be done immediately:

1) Contact the head of maintenance in your flight club and let him know that his aircraft has had a prop strike. It should be grounded until a thorough prop strike inspection is complete. I would think that the engine will be pulled and torn down...you don't want to mess around with this one.

2) Contact your club's safety officer and relate your experience to him. It sounds like at the very least this pilot needs more training in handling the 182. As others have said there were a lot of mistakes made on this flight and more training is the answer.

More training is not a bad thing either. It goes hand in hand with always learning.

jtrusso said:

A lot of good advice has been given already, and I agree you handled yourself well. As a newly minted pilot it's easy to think that those with more hours (when you have 50 hours in the log book 170 does sound like a lot) know everything. Let me tell you, they don't! As a pilot you learn something new on every flight. I have just over 200 hours and I'm still an neophyte, and I tell myself that every time I take to the skies. As they say, there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots.

Two things that should be done immediately:

1) Contact the head of maintenance in your flight club and let him know that his aircraft has had a prop strike. It should be grounded until a thorough prop strike inspection is complete. I would think that the engine will be pulled and torn down...you don't want to mess around with this one.

2) Contact your club's safety officer and relate your experience to him. It sounds like at the very least this pilot needs more training in handling the 182. As others have said there were a lot of mistakes made on this flight and more training is the answer.

More training is not a bad thing either. It goes hand in hand with always learning.

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Perhaps this is a sign that I should just walk away (I just joined this flying club).
1. This was at a club fly-in. The management of the club is already aware.
2. The pilot in question is the VP of the club, in charge of safety and training.... really?

I'd think twice about being a memeber

Rabidsnipe said:

2. The pilot in question is the VP of the club, in charge of safety and training.... really?

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If the pilot who is supposed to be in charge of making sure all members of the club are proficient is not himself proficient I would seriously think about being a member of that club.

You don't want to be flying airplanes that are regularly being abused by pilots who fly like that.

You might want to consider running, not walking...

Rabidsnipe said:

Perhaps this is a sign that I should just walk away (I just joined this flying club).
1. This was at a club fly-in. The management of the club is already aware.
2. The pilot in question is the VP of the club, in charge of safety and training.... really?

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I would be very interested in how the club handles the the whole affair. If, and this is a big if, the airplane suffered firewall damage the repair combined with a prop strike inspection and propeller repair could exceed the NTSB's $25,000 threshold requiring immediate notification.

If you have a "way out" of the club, I would be tempted to take it, if nothing else, they are going to be short one airplane for a while and could be in a financial bind as well. Run, don't walk!

John Clark ATP CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Rabidsnipe said:

Perhaps this is a sign that I should just walk away (I just joined this flying club).
1. This was at a club fly-in. The management of the club is already aware.
2. The pilot in question is the VP of the club, in charge of safety and training.... really?

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No doubt. I would not want to fly with them either.

There is a difference....

One would hope, that with training, a student would go on to become a "Pilot." Unfortunately, there are too many "Airplane Drivers" out there. I was at a fly-in in California many years ago watching a Citabria on about a 1/4 mile final to Georgetown Airport in the Sierras. Even at that distance out I could see that the "pilot" was ham fisted and too slow on the rudders. I warned everyone around me "Get away from the runway and watch out for that Citabria!" About 20 of us walked about 50 feet away from the runway edge and watched what was about to happen. The comments from our group was, "What the ****'s he doing?...and "Does that guy know how to fly?" The Citabria came over the threshold and then throttled up for no good reason that I could see.....possibly for the "pilot" to line up on the runway or land long? About half-way down the runway, the pilot plants it on the mains in a very unsmooth manner and chops the power. The slower the Citabira got, the more unstable it got in directional control to the point of swerving left and right. The tail wheel never did come down. As he went past us, the last swerve was accompanied by full throttle application. Too late: The Citabria went off the right side of the runway with the right main wheel off the ground and the left wing tip dragging. Off to the right side of the runway, amongst all of the visitors, was a beautiful radial engined Howard in new paint. The Citabria's raised right wing bottom clipped the right wing of the Howard in such a manner as to not cause any denting of the leading edge, but it did take the paint off about the last 5 feet of that Howard's right leading edge. The Citabria completed a 90 degree right turn down an embankment and came to a stop about 30 feet below runway level. The "pilot" got out of the Citabria with a smile on his face. His passenger wasn't as happy. Later, the passenger told me that his "pilot" friend lost control one time earler....what his friend described to me was a ground loop.

Fortunately, the FAA had their representative there to have a chat with the "pilot." ....and all of this happened in a no wind condition! The Citabria only had minor damage to the left wingtip and paint damage to the right wing bottom. Talk about lucking out! Don't know how they ever got that Citabria back up the hill? They would have had to cut down a lot of brush and probably used a long rope and towed it back up the hill. Of course, the heavy tall brush is what cushioned the forward motion of the Citabria to bring it to a stop or it would have gone across a dirt trail and another 50 feet into small tree trunks! It makes one wonder how anyone so inept at flying could become a licensed pilot? Perhaps he took that old Cessna advertisement to heart, to wit: "Drive it up....and drive it back down." Remember that one with the photo of a smiling older woman gripping both hands on the control yoke?

Also, if I don't know the pilot's skill level, I will never ever sit in the rear seat of a side by side airplane. Imagine being invited to come along "for the ride" as pilot X is taking his elder mother and father along for his touch and go practice. *I should have realized that he probably needed the practice! He made three touch and goes which scared the beejesus out of me! All three landing flares began at approximately 30 feet off the ground, and then sort of mushed to the runway. Sure glad the wind wasn't gusting! Did you know that the muscles in your bottom part of your anatomy are capable of gripping the rear seat of a Cessna 206?

Debrief

Edit: I wrote this early this morning right after I read your post. Since then you made a subsequent post that shows me you have already figured out most of what I?m saying. However, since it was already written, I?m going to post it.

First off, let me tell you that I'm a military pilot and I'm going to give you a straight up debrief. Bro to bro. Have a thick skin and learn from this experience. Remember, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Also, I let another military pilot who flies 767s for AA read your story and we both agree. It is obvious that you had more SA than the guy flying the acft. This is not uncommon when the person flying is not current or proficient and is holding on to the tail of the acft by his fingernails. But, in my opinion you should have been more aggressive. Even very experienced pilots make mistakes. If you are there and allow it, you are making a bigger error. Here are a few examples of what I?m talking about.

First, the TP altitude issue. I agree with your initial action, however when the PIC didn?t get what you were hinting at you should have said something like ?Do you want to be at 2000? agl?? or ?Why are you flying a 2000? pattern?? The PIC was obviously preoccupied with flying the acft (or playing with the AP). He was not getting your hints. It was your responsibility to make sure he understood what he was doing. Flying airplanes is not the time to worry about hurting someone?s feelings when safety is being compromised. Lives and equipment are at stake. I can?t think of a bigger mistake than to die while knowing you should say or do something but instead you sit there and die like a lemming. I know this sounds harsh but aviation is a serious business with very little tolerance for error. When you fly airplanes you have to be on top of your game. Quick war story. I once led a 6 ship of IPs (4 including myself were Stan Eval examiners) to the wrong runway. One of guys made a comment about the field elevation. That was his hint that I was headed to the wrong runway. Needless to say I didn?t get it. I continued to the wrong runway until ATC prompted me. Thoroughly embarrassed I had to circle around to the correct runway and added a .1 to our 8.5 hour sortie. I would have been thankful if he had just asked which runway I was headed to instead of wasting electrons on that indistinct hint.

Second, when the PIC called for flaps and you knowingly busted an ops limit of the acft (I?m assuming that any degree of flaps above the white arc is an overspeed) you were wrong. You should have either told him that he needed to slow or you should have queried him on the ops limit or you should have delayed moving the flaps until the airspeed was within limits. There is no excuse for knowingly exceeding a placard limit except in an emergency.

Third, good on you for pushing the yolk forward. That was a situation that required immediate action and you took it. We?ve all heard the altitude above you and the runway behind you thing but I think the more important part of that saying is the .1 of a second ago.

Fourth, the trim issue. If I understand what you were saying, he was moving the trim the wrong way. That one should have be self critiquing for him but if he didn?t quickly figure out his mistake, you needed to point it out. Adding more and more nose up trim when he needs nose down trim is very bad. Particularly on final when you would normally be slowed down. This could lead to an out of control situation.

My analysis of this is that you were flying with a pilot that was not proficient and /or not focused on what he was doing. This caused him to have very low SA. You on the other hand had a handle on the situation but let it go too far. You were in a tough situation that requires actions that appear to conflict with our social norms. Try to use PC techniques to avoid an adversarial situation, but if he ain't getting it you need to kick it up a notch to get your point across. When flying we all need to help out our buds to keep us all alive. If he took exception to your help, then don?t fly with him again. Glad it was only hardware damage and not jellyware damage. It could have easily been both.

Lucky to be alive

Rabidsnipe said:

Thank you very much for your input.

Having survived this incident there are a lot of things that I have learned that will change my approach to flying.

1. Know your pilot! This pilot has approxamatley 170 hours total time; I am uncertain as to what his recent experience is. However, before the flight one of the backseat passengers relayed a story about a recent trip to Addison Airport in the Dallas airport. He stated that the pilot came in too hot, too high and, "I didn't think we were going to make the end of the runway." These two data points together make me seriously question the ability of this pilot. I told my wife afterward that we will not be making anymore flights with this individual for a while.
2. Speak up/grab the controls! I now wish that I would've said something about several things. The vacuum gauge made me a little nervous but I assumed he had flown the plane before. Further, someone had flown the plane just prior to us taking off; I now wish I would've said something about it and called the flight. The flaps, the mis-read altimeter, etc. I will no longer keep my mouth shut when I observe things like this; I'm just glad I'm alive to be able to apply the lesson learned. I was completly out of my element sitting in the right seat and was not that comfortable with the prospect of taking over the controls. I've already talked to my instructor about getting some right seat time.
3. Go around! After Saturday's incident, I am fairly certain that my liklihood to initiate a go-around will be higher. I have only done about 3 go-arounds that weren't intentional. One just last week on my first landing with a passenger (this can't be how my wife remembers her first landing with me, "it was kind of bumpy").


Aside from the seemingly complete lack of attention to potential safety issues (and my subsequent failure to point out said issues), what really irked me about the whole situation was the non-existent response to the nose high-attitude induced by the application of additional flaps. Additionally, his (to me) failure to consider the go-around until after I told him to do so. My feeling is that his intention was to continue to try and land the plane; I wasn't about to sit around and see what the fourth "landing" was going to be like.

Thanks again for your input. I feel like this was a great learning experience and will make me a better and safer pilot.

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Sounds like the right take-away lessons. This is a touchy situation that I have yet to face. IMO, taking control would be the right thing to do, but that assumes he would let you do it. Wrestling for controls at low altitude also seems like a good way to die.

I might try forcefully talking him though the right actions first.

I'm also planning some right seat training for similar reasons.

Personally, I don't think I'd fly with that guy again. The bad landing could happen to anyone on a bad day, but multiple failures to maintain airspeed is completely unacceptable.

At less than 200 hours, he is still in the "infant mortality" range of experience. TBD whether he will survive.

Steve Brown said:

Personally, I don't think I'd fly with that guy again.

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If I haven't already mentioned it, the first thing I said to my wife (who was one of the back seat passengers) "We are never flying with him again."

The airspeed excursions you describe are terrifying to contemplate. On final alone you went from above the white arc to stall horn to above the white arc again. I have not flown a 182 but that's got to be something like 35 kts variation. The fsdo needs a call. This guy needs a check ride with the FAA and the remedial training it will lead too. He's well past dangerous.

You've handled it well so far, make the call. If he kills someone next week how'r you gonna feel.

Best of luck

The scariest part of this is the CFI who signed him off to take the practical and the Examiner who signed the license. Somewhere along the line he should have had a checkout to fly that (high performance) 182...those are the people who need to be talked to...the pilot is a result of THEIR lack of oversight...

Sometimes you need to be a rat

I hate ratting people out, but I agree this guy needs it. It may save his life and whatever victims happen to be in the airplane with him.

Hopefully you are an AOPA member. Contact their legal first, because the fact that you took the controls at any time in the flight could blur the lines of who was the PIC, bringing questions of why you ever gave them back.

Since it was a rented airplane, that creates a paper trail of who was supposed to be flying. Apparently, he also "confessed" to others on the ground without attempting to implicate you as the one who broke the airplane.

I think you're ok, but I'm not a lawyer.

There was an article recently in AOPA regarding a vaguely similar situation where an FAR was violated. The right seat pilot was found culpable because control had been passed back and forth. There are very significant differences between that event and yours, but I would err on the side of caution.

They're gonna love this guy...

Since he has just had a prop strike in the club airplane, he has just pi$$ed off xx pilots who now lose access to that airplane. In addition, the insurance rate will probably go up and the club officers are going to be talking to the club CFI(s) about standards. So, any further action by you is probably unnecessary.

As a former Flying club member, we had incidents like this with alarming frequency. It's particularly bad when the tower calls the club President on his cell to inform him that one of "his" airplanes was just porpoising down the runway and he had better get the prop/firewall looked at ASAP. The odd thing about this situation was that this club had a couple of the best CFIs I've ever flown with. I guess you can lead a horse to water.......

John

I already posted my thoughts on the subject above. However, I was thinking back to when I had 170 hours. While I have never had anything close to this happen to me (knock on wood), I have had bad days, as every other pilot in the world has had, and if they havn't they will.

It could be that this was just a unexplanable variance from how he usually flys. He could have gotten distracted by having the plane fully loaded. That vacum indication was probably on his mind, distracting him. Maybe he didn't get enough sleep. Maybe he had something to eat that screwed him up. Maybe he had some over the counter meds. Maybe he just had a huge fight with his wife. And let's not forget that the winds were a bit much, for most people at his level of experience (even though I don't think they should be too much for the people at that level, it just is the way things are).

The point is that there are any number of factors. And it is possible that this guy just had a bad day. While he should have run through the I'M SAFE checklist before he went (yes that is an FAA parrot line), I know that at least 99% of all pilots do not consciously run through that checklist everytime they go up. The 1% that do work for the FAA.

I personally don't think that this incident, from what you have told us, warrents a call to the FAA. (unless of course you are required to report the incident. But I don't think that is your responsibility since you were not the PIC. You'll have to look that up - NTSB Part 830 in the FAR AIM). Now, if he expresses an attitude of indiference, refuses to go get some currency training, etc. Then a call may be warranted. But i would try to deal with it inside the club or with a local flight school. Also, I am guessing that the insurance company, upon hearing about the incident will require some currency training.

This reminded me of an old timer instructor I know. This guy had flown F-4s, and B-52s (rare to fly both fighters and bombers from what I've been told) and If i remember right many other military aircraft in addition to all the civilian stuff he had flown. He had somewhere around 8000 hours. He had a gear up landing in a GA plane. Bad day? You bet it was. Moment of incompetence? Of course. This kind of thing can happen to any pilot, the minute he let's something else get in the way of flying the plane. And his attitude after the incident was not one of indiference. It was an attitude of humility and embaracement. Which is probably going to be the attitude of the pilot in this situation. He probably scared himself more than he scared you, and he is going to have some consequences as a result of this incident, as others have said above. I am guessing that he will probably learn his lesson without having FAA involvement.

Anyway, it's easy to criticize a bloke the moment something like this happens, while it is warranted, every pilot is just a bad day away from having something like this to happen to them. Every pilot has had some close calls (even if they're FAA). It's important to keep that in mind when analyzing the actions of other pilots.

It's another way to look at the situation.

Hope it helps.

True, as BigSky said, the pilot may have been distracted by a variety of factors - but it is our primary duty as pilots to fly the airplane first and foremost WITHOUT DISTRACTION.

If you can successfully multitask to the degree necessary to fly the airplane safely and still deal with the distraction, then good on you and more power to you - but the safe conduct of the flight trumps all. This guy didn't get it, and needs (IMHO) a minimum of a BFR to have his skills polished a hair.

If you can't multitask (and we've all seen and know people who can't) then don't fly.

Well I thought that I would give an update to this event. Thus far I have communicated (via word of mouth and written statment) my interpretation of events to a board member as well as the club treasurer. According to the treasurer several of the instructors of the club are already talking about getting him back up in the air to get a BFR. According to one instructor, "you saved the plane." I was quick to point out that was opinion based on my interpretation of events.

Today I recieved an email from the pilot apologizing for the situation and for putting us into it, and relaying that he had to fill out an incident report and list us as passengers. Based on the tone of the email I think this is possibly one of the best learning experiences he will ever get. I haven't written my reply but he requested he be allowed to apologize in person. I think he has taken the experience to heart and will be a better pilot because of it. Luckily be all survived and will live to tell the tale and make us all better pilots.


-Chase

when you have 50 hours in the log book 170 does sound like a lot

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I've been told by more than one instructor that your skills are at their peak when you take your checkride. Don't defer to another pilot unless you both understand each other and you're comfortable with the other pilot's response. I have, on a few occations, had to correct a CFI while flying. One in particular has forgotten more than I'll ever know about flying. Then again...he's forgotten it.

he requested he be allowed to apologize in person

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This sounds like a mature individual, if not a particularly skillful one. The skills can be learned, the maturity usually can't. Sounds like you handled the personal situation as skillfully as you handled the plane. Well done. You'll never know what would have happened if you *didn't* speak up. But I know of similar situations that turned out very badly.

Thanks for the report. I think we can all learn something from this.

Clear skies,

I fly a 182RG regularly.

I can tell you that the flap 10 degree speed is much higher than the top of the white arc. No need to worry here.

Vfe = 140 KTS (0 - 10)
Vfe = 95 KTS (20 - 40/top of white arc)

A 182 can be a hard aircraft to slow down during approach and landing, especially with only 10 degrees of flaps and being too high.

I also know that on my 182 will indicate a vacuum failure during low RPM settings. This is normal.
What did the gauge indicate during runup?

The approach speed in my aircraft is 70-80 knots.

Landing the 182 at 90+ knots is not a very smart thing to do.

It will flare for a very long time & if you touch down with such a high speed the aircraft will desperately try to continue to fly.

This will surly cause some major bouncing or proposing, especially if you try to fight it.

A gusty cross wind will give you huge problems during such a situation...

I stuck the prop in my 182 once.
Thankfully it was into a snow bank.

We had a major fuel system malfunction & fuel leak on my way to Quebec City.

Had to land ASAP at nearest airpot. Landed with full fuel in one tank - zero fuel in the other.

Had a good gusty crosswind, short runway, 50% covered with clear ice & gusts well outside the aircrafts demonstrated limit. (Was this airport or a farmers field covered with 4 feet of snow).

Aircraft veered sharply towards the heavy side (full fuel tank side). No amount of rudder and aileron input could stop this from happening. Aircraft nosed first into a high snow bank.

A friend of mine who flies 737's told me if you have more than a 10% fuel difference in his aircraft and can't fix it via cross-feed you better start praying. (I had a 100% difference!!)

As cguarino posted earlier "Remember, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

Live and learn.

Maybe your friend just had a bad day.

We've all flown with either too little sleep, not eating properly, stressed out, fatigued, under pressure, not in the right frame of mind, etc.

These things can really effect our flying skills.

Did you talk to your friend about this at all? Man to man, heart to heart??

Maybe it was the wrong thing to post here to figure out what went wrong instead of having a good chat with this person. Isn't this what friends are for?

We have no idea what the pilot was feeling, how much sleep he got, or any other factors that may effect this person.

I also think it would also be a wrong thing to run to a safety officer/FAA before doing so.