Landing 2 up?

OK Smokey! I landed 2 up today for the first time. Its a different aeroplane!!! Any tips on STOL landing it 2 up?

I said to my 150lb passenger 'we will do that again', but the result was not so different. The problem I had both times was the tail wheel striking first - trying to do a fully held off landing - and that throwing it forward. (The CofG is at the 60% aft point so I am still well clear of the aft limit so there will be plenty of fun with wife and luggage. The wife, fortunately, is much less than 150, more like 115lbs, but the bags will be further back.)

We are on slightly bumpy grass, but thats no excuse because she really is a pussycat to put on the ground solo.

Is part of the trick to put her down on the mains with the tail low, but off the ground?

Hi again....

....Steve. We have the same situation with my buddy at 170 lbs in the back. What I tell my students to do in TW airplanes is to take a good look over the nose at the far end of the field before takeoff and see exactly just where the trees intersect the cowl. Then simply duplicate that picture on the landing....in this case, you'll obviously find, or have already found, that to be in a three point attitude takes much less back elevator with two up. Just use what it takes to get the correct nose-up attitude, three-pointing it.

Regards,

I had same problem

On my first trip with 170 lbs in the rear seat the tail fell out from under me during the flare. There wasn't much I could do but hang on. I found that adding a little bit of power during the flare takes care of the problem. I also tend to come in a little faster when I have someone of that size in the back seat. Sure wasn't fun the first two landings unitl I figured it out.

Same thing in the 8. I learned to do like Pierre said, and it seems so easy now.

.......tail a little higher than normal?

Pierre, thanks for that, but that is what I do normally. I cant help thinking that what might be better is to get the tail a little higher than normal? It hit bumps which lifted the back end well up and banged us onto the mains, so then I had to pull back on the stick.....so then I banged the tail......Yuk!

Still came to a halt in about 600' but its not the way I want to arrive!

Steve Sampson said:

OK Smokey! I landed 2 up today for the first time. Its a different aeroplane!!! Any tips on STOL landing it 2 up?

I said to my 150lb passenger 'we will do that again', but the result was not so different. The problem I had both times was the tail wheel striking first - trying to do a fully held off landing - and that throwing it forward. (The CofG is at the 60% aft point so I am still well clear of the aft limit so there will be plenty of fun with wife and luggage. The wife, fortunately, is much less than 150, more like 115lbs, but the bags will be further back.)

Click to expand...

You shouldn't do anything with a passenger on board that you haven't already done solo. This includes flying at various weights and CGs. Use ballast strapped into the seat or aft baggage area to achieve the weight and CG for various tests.

Rather than going all the way from the solo weight and CG to the weight and CG with a passenger in one big step, divide that learning curve into smaller baby steps. E.g., put 50 lb of ballast in the rear seat, and fly the aircraft through all manoeuvres. When you are comfortable with that, repeat with 100 lb in the back seat, then 150 lb, 200 lb, etc until you arrive at your aft CG limit.

Thank you Kevin

Kevin Horton said:

You shouldn't do anything with a passenger on board that you haven't already done solo. This includes flying at various weights and CGs. Use ballast strapped into the seat or aft baggage area to achieve the weight and CG for various tests.

Rather than going all the way from the solo weight and CG to the weight and CG with a passenger in one big step, divide that learning curve into smaller baby steps. E.g., put 50 lb of ballast in the rear seat, and fly the aircraft through all manoeuvres. When you are comfortable with that, repeat with 100 lb in the back seat, then 150 lb, 200 lb, etc until you arrive at your aft CG limit.

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My thought exactly. You have a responsibility to your pax to know how the thing will behave in every configuration. Sacks of concrete in trash bags work nicely when seat belted into the seat.

That said, I find the quality of my landings in the -8 are much more dependent on precise speed control when two up than when solo. Getting the thing to wheel on before you get too slow is important. I've not had much luck changing from wheelie to three point on the fly, so to speak. If wheeling, and I don't get it to touch when I first intend, a wee bit of power helps.

Your mileage may vary..

Steve,
Indeed! You were correct on speed if the TW hit first! The old addage "add 5 knots for the wife and kids" worked well in my lightweight -4. All of the above comments are viable but from 1500 RV4 hours flying alot of passengers, many in and out of my 900' strip this is what I used. First, for all the -8 dudes that chime in, the 4 is vastly different from the -8 across the board. Especially CG wise in that 5 lbs aft of the roll bar is much more noticeable. Trust me, I have 200 hours in the -8 and another 300 in my Rocket.
In my RV4, I restricted myself to no more than 200 lbs aft of my roll bar for STOL operations,(1000' runway lengths or less) ever. This from practicing many landings. Anything over 150 lbs in the trunk I set a min fuel of 1/2 tanks for CG. With less fuel I found it highly pitch sensitive in the flare with a more abrupt stall. An approach speed of 65 knots with full flaps power-on worked well, slowing to 60 over the fence. Throttle to idle at touchdown, retract flaps, full aft stick and moderate braking should suffice. You can ease forward on the stick just prior to touchdown for a modified tail-low wheels landing. Practice makes perfect and you might try a few with a passenger at a longer grass strip, getting the technique nailed down.
My friend Bob Olds placed VG's on his RV4 and lowered all of his numbers 5 knots including cruise. He operated out of a 1200' strip in his backyard with good results. I never added them as I think they detract form the beauty of the wing. I simply practiced until I could safely fly final at 58 knots with a passenger. VG's however, do work well. Call me and we can chat if you like...

Smokey
863-397-1657

full flaps for wheelies

Using full flaps will raise the tail (or is it lower the nose?) and give you more room to work with before the tail wheel touches down.

He is right!

smokyray said:

Steve,
Indeed! You were correct on speed if the TW hit first! The old addage "add 5 knots for the wife and kids" worked well in my lightweight -4. All of the above comments are viable but from 1500 RV4 hours flying alot of passengers, many in and out of my 900' strip this is what I used. First, for all the -8 dudes that chime in, the 4 is vastly different from the -8 across the board. Especially CG wise in that 5 lbs aft of the roll bar is much more noticeable. Trust me, I have 200 hours in the -8 and another 300 in my Rocket.
In my RV4, I restricted myself to no more than 200 lbs aft of my roll bar for STOL operations,(1000' runway lengths or less) ever. This from practicing many landings. Anything over 150 lbs in the trunk I set a min fuel of 1/2 tanks for CG. With less fuel I found it highly pitch sensitive in the flare with a more abrupt stall. An approach speed of 65 knots with full flaps power-on worked well, slowing to 60 over the fence. Throttle to idle at touchdown, retract flaps, full aft stick and moderate braking should suffice. You can ease forward on the stick just prior to touchdown for a modified tail-low wheels landing. Practice makes perfect and you might try a few with a passenger at a longer grass strip, getting the technique nailed down.
My friend Bob Olds placed VG's on his RV4 and lowered all of his numbers 5 knots including cruise. He operated out of a 1200' strip in his backyard with good results. I never added them as I think they detract form the beauty of the wing. I simply practiced until I could safely fly final at 58 knots with a passenger. VG's however, do work well. Call me and we can chat if you like...

Smokey
863-397-1657

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Smokey is right on the mark. I fly with my son in the back offend. Ian is 200 lbs so short field landing are not an option. Carson City?s D/A over 6000? much of the summer. I carry 5 kts (65 kts) more down final with a touch of power (1400 rpm?s)
Throttle to idle at touch down and keep it straight on roll out

I third that...

Kevin Horton said:

You shouldn't do anything with a passenger on board that you haven't already done solo. This includes flying at various weights and CGs. Use ballast strapped into the seat or aft baggage area to achieve the weight and CG for various tests.

Rather than going all the way from the solo weight and CG to the weight and CG with a passenger in one big step, divide that learning curve into smaller baby steps. E.g., put 50 lb of ballast in the rear seat, and fly the aircraft through all manoeuvres. When you are comfortable with that, repeat with 100 lb in the back seat, then 150 lb, 200 lb, etc until you arrive at your aft CG limit.

Click to expand...

I also couldn't agree more with Kevin.

From the sounds of some of these posts, there are a lot of people spending there whole phase one flight test program just cruising around and then finally finding out what there airplane handles like at an aft C.G. position when they take there first passengers and or there first big trip with a bunch of baggage in the back.

Our operating limitations generally require a log book entry with a statement of " I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable through out its normal range of speeds and through out all maneuvers to be executed...blah, blah,blah....

Lately we have seen heated discussions about all of the builders that have not followed the rules and it is now causing the FAA to write new rules.
In my mind, making the above log book entry without fully testing in the complete C.G. range is not much different that signing a document claiming to have built 51% when I haven't.

This may seem a bit harsh ( I really don't intend it to be) but we all need to understand that the phase one test period is as much for the new RV owner to get to know his new airplane, as it is for proving the reliability and safe flight characteristics.

I hate hearing stories of pilots Learning with unknowing passengers aboard.

rvbuilder2002 said:

This may seem a bit harsh ( I really don't intend it to be) but we all need to understand that the phase one test period is as much for the new RV owner to get to know his new airplane, as it is for proving the reliability and safe flight characteristics.

I hate hearing stories of pilots Learning with unknowing passengers aboard.

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And, people who purchase an RV, rather than building one, would be wise to explore all parts of the flight envelope solo before carrying passengers. I use flight envelope in the broadest sense, to include the full range of airspeed, altitude, weight, CG and manoeuvre. There is no regulatory requirement for such a test program, but it is the smart thing to do.

Smoky/Pierre/Dayton - thanks for the comments and advice. Its nice to hear from other -4 owners who have experience of the fine detail of an aircraft, and experience of routinely putting them into confined grass strips.

With respect to the -8 owners, commenting on landing a -4 based on -8 experience is of little value. They have different characteristics. That was clear to me before I set out on the more difficult path to a -4. All whom I have talked to, describe the flying qualities of the -4 as just plain superior. Sorry! (Only improved on by the -3 in the VANS range I am told, but I will probably never know.)

Apologies if I am over sensitive, but my question appears to have caused quite a bit of criticism of my approach to flight testing. Perhaps it is not aimed at me, but I cant think who else on the thread it is aimed at in that case.

For the record, here in the UK I am working through 24 pages of tests that an approved 'Check Pilot', in this case, me, must undertake before my -4 moves from the flight test stage, to having a full 'permit to fly'. It is issued by the LAA (similar to the EAA) and closely based on the CAA's own schedule. I cant see it as not being thorough in its approach. I dont know what the EAA require by comparison.
[Kevin, I have just spotted the answer is in your comment: "There is no regulatory requirement for such a test program, but it is the smart thing to do. "]

Also for the record, my 'passenger' for the flight, required by the LAA for a part of the test, (and required NOT to be there for much of the test), is a 12000 hour pilot. He is also an occasional examiner of CAA examiners, on certain aircraft, and a 2500 hour GA instructor. He has a little tail wheel experience also, which includes Supercub type aircraft, through to DC3 in the bush in Africa.
[Scott - you said "I hate hearing stories of pilots Learning with unknowing passengers aboard." I wasnt quite sure who you were reffering to?]

[To me the approach appears quite safe in the context of aviation. I cant help remembering, when I lived in the USA, being asked to take a newly imported glider 200 miles to something called a GADO, so the FAA could approve it for flight. After much Oohing and Ahhing over the German build quality, and with the necessary signatures on the bits of paper, I asked the FAA guy who had just signed it off if he did many gliders. 'No, first one. I do L1011 he replied.' I drove the 200 miles home wondering what was the point. To me that is unsafe, being approved by a guy who did not know what he was looking at. ]

The Rest of the Story...

Bravo Steve, knowledge is power!

Smokey
HR2

Once that first bullet flies past your head, everything else goes right out the window...
Delta Force Operator

Buyers have an advantage...

I just want to point out that buyers actually have an advantage in this regard. The plane is already out of phase I. So, you can take advantage of the instructors out there who are already very familier with the cg and handling characteristics of the RV series.

When I bought my -4, I was able to have an instructor come to my airport and check me out in my own plane !! My first 10hrs were flown 2 up and right at gross.

As far as aft cg, It is very difficult to reach aft cg in the -4 and still stay within gross. Sometimes I think Van set the gross on the -4 low to help keep you out of aft cg situations.

John

Clarification

Steve Sampson said:

Apologies if I am over sensitive, but my question appears to have caused quite a bit of criticism of my approach to flight testing. Perhaps it is not aimed at me, but I cant think who else on the thread it is aimed at in that case.

[Scott - you said "I hate hearing stories of pilots Learning with unknowing passengers aboard." I wasnt quite sure who you were reffering to?]

]

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My post was not directed at anyone in particular (I figured you were working on a prescribed test program since you are in the U.K). And obviously your passenger new full well what the situation was.

My post was mostly initiated (and I'm sure it was the case for Kevin also) by all of the posts after yours describing how surprised pilots were the first time they flew a passenger or had an Aft C.G. because of baggage for there first big trip to <fill in the blank>.

Main point is...that should never happen.