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Crankshaft Seal Blowout In Flight and Emergency Landing RV-7A

I'm not sure of your point here. Van's isn't the vendor for the system in question and doesn't endorse it's use. The manufacturer does not acknowledge the gravity of the issue. What we have is a difference of opinion regarding the safety of an aftermarket add-on. As others have stated, if owners are going to make modifications to the design, they also must take responsibility for the safety of such changes. IMHO, there are a number of snake-oil products out there, we have to be savvy enough to avoid them, or buy a Cessna.

Look, I don't want to make EAB turn into anything like TC'd planes, either. I have merely said, for a long time, that because we don't use A&Ps or shops, which maintain (or should) access to all of the SBs, ADs, XYZs for TC'd planes, we're reliant on a much less formal "system" to get information about things like this. That being the case, we should work *harder* to insist on and create good information pathways, rather than accepting ones which are, in many cases, hit-or-miss. We have computers, we have the internet, we have email, etc.

I agree that owners/builders have to take responsibility and research any changes or additions or what have you. I'm not arguing that, at all.

I'm calling for a better means of distributing information *once a problem is identified*. This is 2015. We have the technology. :)

If our EAB world is morphed into the same type of system that certified planes exist, then, yes. You'll see the ludicrous, INSANE lawsuits against the suppliers and the resultant archaic technology and high prices. That what you want? I am hearing this tone from those who want zero risk products and AD, SB, TSO, PMA, FAA, etc. accountability. I absolutely do not. What we have works very well for what it is.

There are a lot of hungry lawyers out there who won't care a bit that the registration says "Experimental" on it, so we should work to prevent problems from turning into tragedies by disseminating information better, that's all I'm saying. Lord knows I don't want "zero risk" (can't get that, anyway), or rigid processes and more rules and all that.

Just better *communication* than "We posted it on our website; what, you didn't hear about that? Sucks to be you!"
 
On a lighter note, it seems top me the OP was asking for this problem, given the flame paint job and all. Remember the guy who had a lightning bolt painted on his tail, and then had a lightning strike on his tail??? Just sayin':D

I feel really lucky that the fire trucks did not roll up to me and start foaming - what with the flames and all....
 
A general point of reference for the availability of maintenance information in the certified "real" world of aviation.

If a vendor decides that one of it's products needs modification or extra inspection to increase reliability of safety, the vendor will write a S.B. and post it on the vendor's website. If your vendor elects to have a subscription service, usually paid, your vendor will mail or e-mail a copy of the S.B.

If the vendor decides the safety of flight issue is serious enough and fleet compliance remains low, the vendor can request a A.D. be written by the FAA. This may or may not happen.

If you have not taken advantage of the various ways that information is normally distributed and your lawyer reads FAR91.403(a) and FAR 91.7(b), your case will be weak at best.
 
Air-Oil Separators Have Been Used Successfully

for thousands of years -- (Well, maybe only 70 or 80) -- and are reasonably effective in returning "blown" oil to the sump. I have had several on certified and experimentals. I never really thought the "extra suck" device was worth installing, and only added additional complexity. I intend to keep my existing Anti-splat oil separator, which works reasonably well. I do test it at each condition inspection, which I did with all my certified systems, as well.
 
A general point of reference for the availability of maintenance information in the certified "real" world of aviation.

If a vendor decides that one of it's products needs modification or extra inspection to increase reliability of safety, the vendor will write a S.B. and post it on the vendor's website. If your vendor elects to have a subscription service, usually paid, your vendor will mail or e-mail a copy of the S.B.

And before there was such a thing as an internet...? How did a mechanic find out what SBs were out there?
 
Before the internet it was a paid subscription service for SBs from the MFG. ADs were mailed to the owner if the address was correct. Techs has a subscription for mailed bi-weeklys and full AD listings for large or small aircraft. Much better these days.
 
Is this something that insurance would cover? (crankcase seal blown and resultant engine overhaul)

Almost never. The insurance will pay for aircraft damage if the engine failure results in an off-airport landing. But not for an engine failure itself. As far as they're concerned this is a maintenance issue.
 
ok. so if this happens, make sure to somehow total the plane without harming life and limb...
should be interesting.

Almost never. The insurance will pay for aircraft damage if the engine failure results in an off-airport landing. But not for an engine failure itself. As far as they're concerned this is a maintenance issue.
 
with either a SB or not, i will certanly not install this device that forced two landings, I will put my breahter tube above my exhaust, simple solution, maybe parcial, but safer
 
with either a SB or not, i will certanly not install this device that forced two landings, I will put my breahter tube above my exhaust, simple solution, maybe parcial, but safer
There are no guarantees.
Just because you did not route the tube to exhaust does not mean that you are 100% safe... the tube can ice up during certain conditions, and blow your seal just the same. (google for whistle slot)
 
Enough is enough for me. I Removed mine today:D. Kept the oil separator in place.
 
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Timely

I just did an oil change yesterday. I have done two others with the seperator installed and I have seen no coking. This time there was a slight bit of coking, this got me to thinking about what was different.

I have not taken any trips longer that an hour prior to this oil change done in August. In September I did a cross country that had two 4 hour legs. Implication being long extended time in cruise might be a contributing factor.

Next difference was that I started using Cam Guard with this last oil change. Since I had no coking prior to this my thought is that there might be something in the chemistry of the Cam Guard that causes the coking.

The last difference is the cooler temperatures of fall and winter.

I test the function of the valve every time the cowling comes off. So far everything has worked fine.

This is certainly a puzzling issue, I never considered that the valve had a mechanical failure mode that could cause a blockage.

Cheers
 
enough is enough for me too. :) if you want to just fly,then do that, but i like the whole airplane ownership thing

I will leave mine in place and check the complete system often. I like pulling the cowl for no reason anyway....another 2 minutes to check/clean the overboard line is child's play...heck I might find a chaffing starter cable or loose hose clamp somewhere. YMMV
 
Enough is enough. Removed mine:D. Kept the oil separator in place.

Good plan!
I see much conversation here about not giving up on the valve and continuing on with the system as an experiment as this is experimental aviation. We have a known problem here with the potential to bring down an airplane, No BS it's happened! I know all of our airplanes have a big placard that says EXPERIMENTAL. I would be willing to say at this time that the design of Vans aircraft by its self is safe and proven not much risk in the airframe it's self. It's where we go from the airframe that makes the real differences.
I am curious when we fly with a known defect like this how often you let your wife, son ,daughter, Mom, Dad etc. that they are part of an experiment or do you even give it a thought? Would you carry this experiment out over populated area,s putting people on the ground at the same risk you are willing to take?
I can pretty well guarantee that if the distributor of these valves new what they were being used for or of the problems they were having they would not let you buy one.
Wake up people.
Ryan
 
Inspection

I inspect mine every 25 hours. The only thing I've found is a small amount of light grey paste, which appears to collect where there is some weld penetration due to welding the tube to the curved plate that holds it in place. Looking at the coking in the picture, it appears to have collected in the same location. I have the AntiSplat kit with the relief valve and plan to keep inspecting at regular intervals.
 
There are no guarantees.
Just because you did not route the tube to exhaust does not mean that you are 100% safe... the tube can ice up during certain conditions, and blow your seal just the same. (google for whistle slot)

Actually if you do detailed research on whistle slots and frozen breather tubes, you will find that it is mainly related to aircraft with breather installations that differ quite a bit from what is generally done on RV's.

We have comparatively tight fitting cowls, that don't pass much wasted cooling air. As a result the temps of the exit air are generally well above freezing. Even in very cold OAT's.

The other big difference is that the aircraft that have had freezing problems usually have the breather tube protruding outside the cowl, or very close to being outside on a cowl with a open bottom air exit opening.

Very different from the system on RV's.

In 25+ years of working with RV's, I don't remember ever hearing about a problem with an iced over breather, other than when people routed the breather line through the fuselage to have it exit below the rudder.
I am sure everyone can guess what the results of that were in below freezing temps.
 
I think we all agree that VAF is the undisputed official RV forum. Maybe the time has come where we have a dedicated non aircraft specific page on this website where aftermarket vendors, listed alphabetically can put out their service bulletins.

This would be a valuable, potentially life-saving scource of information that can be visited by RV owners with completed aircraft.

Hopefully the value of this information will be recognised and prompt the tight fisted to pay their annual fees and keep this wonderful site up and running :)
 
RE: Service Bulletin 000-1

Just for a data point. I have had the Anti-splat Aero oil separator installed since flight #1 of my phase I flying in June. I have inspected it at 10 hrs, 25 hrs, and at 40 hrs. during oil changes. Although there has been no sign of build-up as previously mentioned by several posters, I decided to purchase the "safety bypass kit" for ease of mind. I just installed it this evening with 50 hours showing on the hobbs. My 1st 30 hours were run full rich and 75% during break-in and after that, I have been reducing power to 65% and leaning to ~ 75-100 degrees ROP. Carbed 360 with 9.0:1 pistons. Still no build up, only a slight greyish deposit on the sides of the tubing. PCV check valve still holding up fine - checks up with back pressure and allows full flow through to exhaust. Took some pictures of the saddle mount assembly with light showing through, but don't know how to post. Ran a gun bore brush through the tube and while it got slightly dirty (oily?), didn't dislodge any debris of any sort. Will keep checking anytime I have to decowl, but seems to be working fine for now. Maybe longer run times at hotter temps will be different. Certainly does seem to keep the belly cleaner.
 
This is 2015. We have the technology.

And we are complaining here where it was posted. Use the technology here at VAF. I have the system and remove it every oil change to check it. Because I used this computer to check for potential problems. Stay with the oily belly or check the system every oil change. Just like at every condition inspection I look up SB from Vans. Relax keep the lawyers out of it.
 
And we are complaining here where it was posted. Use the technology here at VAF. I have the system and remove it every oil change to check it. Because I used this computer to check for potential problems. Stay with the oily belly or check the system every oil change. Just like at every condition inspection I look up SB from Vans. Relax keep the lawyers out of it.

The option is not either live with a potentially dangerous system vs. oil on the belly, there are other type of air/oil separators that have proven just as effective AND no issues specially multiple forced landings.

Frankly, if I had a system in my engine that required inspection every 25 hours, I would be far too nervous with it just in case if the problem happened to appear at 24 hour interval.
 
Without words

I am trying to understand the willingness of some to use a clean belly contraption at the risk of a $25,000+ engine, injury, or death to pilot and passenger. I don't know whether to thank them for their ultimate contribution or just sit on the sidelines and read the news when it hits the fan. On one hand, the freedom to exercise such risk is great in this day and age where so many are willing to give up such freedom for safety. On the other hand, the risk/benefit analysis of the clean belly contraption just doesn't add up. I guess at the end of the day, we can just chalk it up as "experimental" and do whatever we want at whatever risk we are willing to take.
That's the goal right? (rhetorical question just in case it doesn't come across).

I hate a dirty belly as must as everyone else. However, isn't there a less risky alternative than this contraption? (not rhetorical question)
 
So nice of you to notice

That's nice of you to notice. FYI, its there so folks won't try to visit and ruin their RV. It's kinda a heads up. No problem in my Maule though.


Sounds like you are quite willing to tolerate risk yourself, even showing it off.
 
Some thoughts, and a few inspection results...

It would seem to be beneficial to differentiate between the the air-oil separator and the crankcase vent valve in this discussion. The CVV is an option on the ASA separator, and to my knowledge, the ASA separator itself is not a root cause of any of the crank seal failures. A coked-up CVV does appear to be involved. There have been broken CVVs as well (I had one).

If a clean belly is the motivation for adding the separator, the CVV does not need to be added, and a catch bottle can be used instead. That's one possible technique at any rate.

My motivation for the CVV addition is performance. It may not be a major enhancement, but this device does have a performance history in other vehicular applications, so I'm giving it a try...my informed choice. As with any performance mod, pros and cons must be weighed, and all measures to mitigate risk should be considered.

When first installed, my CVV did coke up, and the valve itself failed internally. That happened in about 40 hours. Here are a couple pics:

IMG_0649.jpg


This second pic shows the failed ASA-supplied CVV taken apart, a spare of the same type, and two Napa replacements. The check valve pop-rivet is what appeared to fail, as the diaphragm was just rattling around inside.

IMG_1097.jpg


I have the ASA tap, and a home-made saddle, as I installed this before ASA offered the saddle. The coking appeared to form in the area of the tap-to-saddle weld. I cleaned it out, and replaced the CVV with the similar Napa part, recommended by Dan H. Here's what the tap looked like cleaned out.

IMG_0650.jpg


I also filed the inner bore at the weld site, to try to reduce the roughness that the coke appears attracted to (that is speculation). I have added a second valve tee'd in as a safety valve, to mitigate the risk...those seal failure events did indeed get my attention. ASA has also started offering a T valve as a safety as well.

I have about 200 hours on the valve since then, and have inspected it at each oil change, and when the cowl was off for maintenance or pre-race inspection. Intervals have ranged from 20-45 hours. I have not had a recurrence of major coking, or any more valve failures. I do see a bit of coking, still at the area of the weld, but it has been very minor...and easily cleaned. Here is the valve, as it looked upon removal, this past month during condition inspection/oil change (42 hours since last removed and inspected).

IMG_5854.jpg


I did a little more filing of the bore in hopes of reducing the coking even further. It is very low now, or so it appears.

So the choice to run this piece of equipment (the CVV) brings with it the responsibility to add a safety valve, inspect regularly, or both. There appears to be risk in not doing so, so I am doing both. I've also added a way to measure whether the CVV is creating negative pressure, with a manometer tap...per Dan's suggestion. Will report back with findings when I can test fly...waiting on good weather and days off to coincide. Here's a photo collage of that set-up:

CI%252B03.jpg


So whether one goes with a breather tube with a whistle slot plumbed overboard, an air-oil separator, with or without a catch bottle, or the full separator/CVV combo, each choice seems to come with inspection, maintenance and care requirements. Complexity does change with each choice, so eyes wide open in the choice.

Good news is we're discussing it, learning, and taking corrective action. For disclosure's sake, ASA has done a little sponsoring of my racing, but that doesn't stop me from having frank conversations with them, or reporting my issues to them...or here on VAF. I think lessons have been learned on all sides.

Not trying to push the product...just still experimenting with it. Hopefully it'll help folks make informed choices. If I've missed any details or other gotchas of this, I'm listening to the operators and mechanics here that have concerns, and trying to install and use this equipment right. Still listening! ;)

Cheers,
Bob
 
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