VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > Safety
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-07-2021, 05:33 AM
Dustyone Dustyone is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Brisbane,Austalia
Posts: 193
Default No Foam Insulation please !

I have an RV in my workshop that had a landing incident that required all front and rear belly skins to be replaced.
This aircraft is only 3 years old and has only done 140hrs of flight time.

The builder elected to use Foam insulation throughout the aircraft including the firewall. He did a masterful job of sealing every nook and cranny of the lower skins.

The foam was a closed cell type that you can buy at any hardware store.

Problem 1
The foam was so well applied that it sealed in any moisture preventing the normal evaporation of condensation. Compounding this problem was that no skins or ribs were primed or treated with alodine. This was just bare alclad against alclad.
The accelerated corrosion was heartbreaking.




This aircraft is lucky that it had a landing incident that allowed us to replace all lower skins and ribs. In the Eastern side of Australia where I live it is hot and humid so alodine conversion treatment and priming parts is the norm.

Problem 2
This same insulation was all over the firewall !
A simple burn test showed that this stuff burns and smokes with only simple ignition. I'm not sure what was worse, the thick black smoke or the fire !!


So please seriously consider where and when to use foam insulation in an aircraft. At the very least, do a simple burn test and if you are worried about noise, just use a good pair of noise cancelling headphones.
__________________
Ashley Miller
RV-10 #40597
Dual SDS CPI
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=140051
Airflow Systems Air-Con
http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...4&postcount=15
VH-XTE 700hrs +
Redcliffe,Brisbane
Australia
Photos : https://goo.gl/photos/zsfBeVofHMe4ze7i7
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-07-2021, 06:42 AM
fixnflyguy fixnflyguy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Winston-Salem, N.C.
Posts: 1,323
Default Great Post!

2 things here that are also my pet peeves.. Glued on foam (moisture and fire) and non primed inner skin surfaces. Seen this all too many times, and in the airliner maintenance business, even the OEMs recommended removing most all of the bilge insulation for that exact reason. Insulation where needed is best applied to the bottom of floor panels that are above the skins...I have seen carpet do the same thing as the insulation in the pictures.
__________________
Bill E.
RV-4/N76WE
8A7 / Advance NC
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-07-2021, 07:43 AM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,793
Default

Firewall and floor foam needs to be on everyone's pre-buy inspection list.

BTW, when subjected to an external heat source, all the foams seem to burn about the same. Remember, the popular claim of compliance with FAR 25.853 just means the material will eventually self-extinguish after the heat source is removed. It does not mean the material is anything close to fireproof. By the time a pilot can detect and shut down a firewall-forward fire, foam insulation is already roaring. I'm talking seconds.
-
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P8310004.JPG
Views:	77
Size:	244.0 KB
ID:	6681  Click image for larger version

Name:	P8310006.JPG
Views:	67
Size:	161.4 KB
ID:	6682  Click image for larger version

Name:	P8310007.JPG
Views:	56
Size:	159.8 KB
ID:	6683  
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-07-2021, 08:18 AM
rocketbob's Avatar
rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,643
Default

It is too broad of a statement to say "don't use foam insulation." There are quite a few neoprene products available that neither absorb moisture nor rapidly propagate fires. Simple enough to test both before using.
__________________

Please don't PM me! Email only!

Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-07-2021, 08:48 AM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,793
Default

A material doesn't need to absorb moisture to cause a corrosion issue. And I guarantee no neoprene on Planet Earth is suitable for the cabin side of a firewall.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-07-2021, 08:59 AM
rocketbob's Avatar
rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,643
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
And I guarantee no neoprene on Planet Earth is suitable for the cabin side of a firewall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvP_0dRSKKs
__________________

Please don't PM me! Email only!

Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-07-2021, 10:41 AM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
Send a sheet, 18" x 24". I'll be happy to demonstrate.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-07-2021, 10:49 AM
climberrn's Avatar
climberrn climberrn is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Carson City, NV
Posts: 589
Default

Dan,

Can you use music like that in your test video?
__________________
Joel

N626JA
RV-7A at CXP
Flying!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-07-2021, 12:10 PM
Brdog42's Avatar
Brdog42 Brdog42 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Cone of Confusion
Posts: 160
Default Bubble Insulation Removed

Our -6A was completed 25+ years ago and had much hardware store insulation installed. All removed. Fortunately no fires or corrosion. AZ it’s entire life. Thanks to VAF for giving me useful info.

I’m glad an ignition source never found this...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	E1292E2B-E19C-4A50-A9CD-D2C4F71784D2.jpeg
Views:	371
Size:	881.4 KB
ID:	6700  Click image for larger version

Name:	B8717657-5D3F-4088-857F-07C4B9B5C519.jpeg
Views:	251
Size:	683.2 KB
ID:	6701  
__________________
Tim
1973 A150L sold
RV-6A restoration in progress
KCHD AZ
‘’’’’’’’‘’’__|__
*>—O-(_)-O—<*
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-12-2021, 07:29 PM
Anon455 Anon455 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
It is too broad of a statement to say "don't use foam insulation." There are quite a few neoprene products available that neither absorb moisture nor rapidly propagate fires. Simple enough to test both before using.
When would you ever need to use spray foam insulation in an airplane and why would you ever use it? I've never seen it used in any airplane that was professionally built after 1903 - not even in Poland.

Last edited by Anon455 : 01-12-2021 at 07:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:54 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.