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First Passenger Flight (With My Daughter Amanda)

Crafting N112DR

Well Known Member
Sometimes the passengers that we take are not comfortable in the sky as we pilots are. Sometimes as pilots we are not paying attention as much as we should to our passengers needs, we are too busy flying the plane. Even the simple sound of the AOA or the auto pilot disconnect can scare our passengers. I tried my best to make my daughter as comfortable as possible during the flight. I have tried my best to preserve her dignity while editing. If I knew she would have been so afraid I would not have taken her. But she did it for me (her Dad)

https://youtu.be/b8MATAsr07o
 

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I’d be scared flying with you as well. Some polish would be useful.

I have found passengers don’t want to hear an emergency briefing aloud of what you’re going to do in the event of an engine failure . Think about if you were the nervous one, and your pilot was discussing how he is going to crash the airplane.

The jerking of the stick back and forth on takeoff and landing is enough to make anyone sick! Small corrections, not pilot induced ossolations.

Taking off and the AOA tones go off for almost a full minute? Lower the nose! It’s concerning to a passenger AND dangerous.

Traffic warning and then a big bank, and lots of power. What the hell? Were you really that close to a midair that such abrupt maneuvers were necessary?

Your conversation about how landings are harder than takeoffs and even more so straight in was not confidence inspiring.

Maybe other people can make other suggestions, but what I saw in this video gave your daughter reason to be concerned. I would be too. I was concerned just watching it.

Sorry if this comes across harsh but I felt it was to good of a learning opportunity to not bring up these points.
 
Great lessons learned

It looks like there are some good lessons to be learned here. It looked like your daughter was appreciative and happy for you at the end of the video.

If this ride was genuinely for her benefit, filming it would have been unnecessary...just sayin'.

First rule in giving passenger rides is to keep them short. Next rule is to take them somewhere they can look forward to, as they might not be as thrilled by the ride as they are just spending time with you. Out to breakfast or lunch at a near by airport grill is always a good start.

For others, it's good to take a person that's been in a GA aircraft before as a "first passenger" in a new aircraft. This can help us work out the little things that we may not have thought of or understand what might surprise a passenger.

Feed back is important. A person with some GA experience can give us better feedback than someone who is not familiar or afraid of flying in small airplanes. It can be tight in our little planes, so there's more to it than just being uncomfortable with the flying part.

More important than chair flying my emergency procedures to a non-pilot passenger is to discuss when it is appropriate to talk, how they can be involved and help me (read the checklist, scan for traffic, etc).

Giving fun rides is somewhat of an art, so keep practicing with GA aware passengers until you're feeling confident.
 
I'm not expert at "nervous passenger" techniques/rules, but I found myself wondering about your AoA calibration. At normal Vy climb speed should it be beeping like that? On a cold day the -12 climbs like a homesick angel at Vy, so even a few knots more would be a safe climb. And even at Vy (Vx for that matter) should AoA be beeping? Vy and Vx should be a very healthy speed margin over stall.
 
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AOA

Well I'm not sure being rude is the best way to give constructive criticism so I'll try to be nice :p

- First flight - Keep it short. Go around the pattern once and land with a nervous passenger. This gives them confidence that you know what the heck you are doing and can take off and land that hunk of metal they just climb in to.

- Let them fly a bit especially when you get to cruising altitude. This is the best way to ease their mind that you aren't flying a rocket to the moon and flying is supposed to be relaxing. Plus, it takes their mind off of all the "what if" because they are focusing on flying.

- Try your best not to move the stick too much or make hard banks... unless you have a passenger that wants a ride in a "stunt plane" as most non-aviation people call aerobatic capable planes.

-The suggestion above to take your nervous passenger to a place that they are looking forward to going is a great suggestion. With that said, the last 12 miles or so of your flight probably seemed like an hour to her. It seemed to me that you slowed down and got in pattern altitude and speed so far out that the even tower was wondering when you were going to get there, imagine what was going through your passenger's mind... she was probably thinking you were never going to make it :rolleyes:

- when you see that your passenger is just a wreck and can't enjoy the flight, some comforting discussion would be nice . . . maybe explaining why the plane is bumping around in the sky, and what does it mean to see traffic, and what the HECK is that constant beeping noise . . which leads to my next comment

- Get your AOA checked or point the nose down :confused: ... I've only flown in a RV12 once and I was a passenger so I can't comment on the airplane performance. But on take off it seemed that the AOA sure was busy beeping for the first 55 seconds of the flight and once or twice the AOA beeped at what seemed to be cruise or almost cruise attitude. Not saying it not calibrated correctly, so assuming it is, lower the nose sooner especially with a nervous passenger or at least tell them not to worry about the beeping in their ears....

Just remember, a non GA passenger, especially once terrified of flying as your passenger seemed to be, has so many other things going through their mind that they simply aren't capable of letting their mind enjoy the wonder of flight.

Hope you don't take this in any negative way.

BTW, I love the intro to your videos. What program do you use to make your intro and also what do you use to make it look like a cartoon ?
 
Just me personally but I would change the AOA calibration. Mine is set up so that if I hear a tone at anytime other than in the flare I need to be doing something. It should not be going off in the climb.
G
 
Will always listen to anyone’s opinion. But you think the flight was that bad?

Nah. Your flying technique was fine. As to managing your passenger...you know your daughter better than anyone here, but I always work hard to engage my passenger, especially if they're new to flying, and try to let them know well ahead of any flight maneuver other than straight and level. I try to avoid steep banks, but most passengers are OK with them as long as you let them know before it happens. I try to be diligent about explaining beeps, alarms and notifications as they happen. With people new to flying, I try to keep up a running commentary about what I'm doing. If they have to ask me what I'm doing or why I made that particular maneuver, or what the beeping is, I take it to mean that I'm doing a bad job of "managing" my passenger. If you let them just sit there and stare out the window, they have to much time to think about what could happen. Better, IMHO, to keep them engaged in what is happening. If I as the pilot am just sitting there silent...it means I'm not maximizing the experience for them and not paying enough attention to my passenger's possible nervousness.

I guess warning annunciations are a personal preference thing in one's own airplane...but I also would definitely want to recalibrate my AoA warnings.
 
Nah. Your flying technique was fine. As to managing your passenger...you know your daughter better than anyone here, but I always work hard to engage my passenger, especially if they're new to flying, and try to let them know well ahead of any flight maneuver other than straight and level. I try to avoid steep banks, but most passengers are OK with them as long as you let them know before it happens. I try to be diligent about explaining beeps, alarms and notifications as they happen. With people new to flying, I try to keep up a running commentary about what I'm doing. If they have to ask me what I'm doing or why I made that particular maneuver, or what the beeping is, I take it to mean that I'm doing a bad job of "managing" my passenger. If you let them just sit there and stare out the window, they have to much time to think about what could happen. Better, IMHO, to keep them engaged in what is happening. If I as the pilot am just sitting there silent...it means I'm not maximizing the experience for them and not paying enough attention to my passenger's possible nervousness.

I guess warning annunciations are a personal preference thing in one's own airplane...but I also would definitely want to recalibrate my AoA warnings.

I think the biggest risk of an overly sensitive AoA tone is that you may tend to automatically tune it out and run the risk of ignoring it when it really matters. Coming from a healthcare AND a healthcare IT background we talked quite a bit about "alert fatigue". The alternate question is whether you WERE flying closer to the edge of a stall but that seems very unlikely having watched the video.
 
The fight wasn't that bad. After reading the thread before watching I was expecting to see a mess, but it wasn't bad at all IMO. I think you got some good feedback on how to do even better, but I wouldn't feel bad about the flight.
 
I've had a few nervous Nelly's fly with me and determined after having a third person throw up in the plane, needed to revise my methods to manage passenger comfort and their feelings of well being.
Upon purchase of a Mooney (since sold) made it a top priority that my wife felt safe and confident that she was in good hands.
I would always inform my nervous passenger 'ahead of time' that I would be banking, climbing or descending the aircraft. I would describe as best I could the unusual sensations they would feel during various gentle maneuvers.
One passenger had a panic attack after I had put an inflatable life jacket on him, strapped his seatbelts on, put his headset on and then when I closed the door he freaked out and couldn't get out of the plane fast enough!
Yes, we were still on the ground. Seems he had a bout of claustrophobia. Once he calmed down, I explained that yes, it was a small cabin but he just needed to look out the window, not inside the plane and he would be ok. We did take off with promise we would land right away at his request. I could tell by his smile on takeoff that I could climb straight out.
As with my wife, I always informed him ahead of time what the airplane would be doing, noises (gear up buzzer, stall horn on touch down) he might hear and any unusual sensations he would feel. When approaching mountains I would inform passengers ahead of time that we would likely be experiencing mechanical turbulence and explain the cause of the turbulence. I've found that explaining to nervous passengers well ahead of time and in detail what they may see, hear or feel, helps alleviate the anxiety they feel. Now that I'm flying a RV3, not needing to worry about such things anymore.
 
Sometimes we might come off as "hotdog" pilots to those new passengers, especially in our slick, fast-looking airplanes. To some people, ALL pilots are dare-devils and hot dogs. But even giving rides in the Cub (one of the most docile-appearing airplanes), they may be afraid you will "do something scary". Some will even say "I hope you aren't going to do any flip-flops". To some, just being in the air is scary enough!

To that end, somewhere in the preflight briefing, usually the taxi roll, I always tell them "We will be doing an easy gentle fun flight today. I will not do anything with you in the airplane that I wouldn't do if you were not here. I do not need to "show off" in this airplane because flying is SO COOL anyway, showing off has no place."

AOA? I've heard of those. Stall warning buzzer? Those scare ME! I haven't flown an airplane with a stall warning or other warning buzzers in probably decades. In the Cub, the top section of the door is usually open because I always fly with it open, which gives passengers more of a feeling of being up there!

In SuzieQ I have a mirror attached to the right side of the canopy that allows me to see my passenger (and any bogies at my 6!) and I am constantly checking on them. In the Cub I am always looking around and sneak peeks at my passengers. I can usually tell if they are not doing well even if they don't say anything. Getting quiet and looking at the floor is a sure sign they may becoming uneasy. "Wow! Did you see how that Snow is just in that valley and has already disappeared from the slopes?" I'll also ask: How's it going back there? Sometimes they are looking down watching the control stick work....

SO: most all of my preflight briefing is FUN, ENJOY, HAPPY, COOL. Nothing negative: I never say vomit/throw up (if you chew tobacco, you can use those bags right there to spit in), engine quit, etc. If something happens during the flight it is MY job to get things back to normal or on the ground. I'll let my passengers know if something is awry and what to do. Will I be pretty busy if something happens? Yes; but talking to them would probably calm my nerves as well.

IMHO; YMMV......
 
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Learning As I Go

Thanks everyone for all the feed back whether it be negative or positive I know you all mean well. To answer some of the questions about the AOA. Yes it is adjusted too aggressive, this was done during the phase one testing of the aircraft by my test pilot. I need to adjust it to be less aggressive but can only be done in the air and I have not had the chance to do so.

As far as why I put my videos up, I do it mostly for my Dad who has stage 4 pancreatic cancer and he requested that he want to see my flights. I know I could have made them private but I feed that I will get better feed back from all you good folks if I put myself out there to be critiqued. I want to be a better pilot and am always working to do so.

Now as far as what I thought was the right thing to do with my first passenger, the out come as far as comfort was no way what I thought it would be for passenger comfort (it's not just about smooth air and keeping the wings level as I'm learning). The air was glass smooth but I now understand that it's much more about how smooth the ride it. I have much to learn as a pilot and it's not something that we get taught as we train to become pilots.
 
David ... I enjoyed your video. I am not one to critique your flying technique after just watching a video of your flight. However, I will share that the suggestion that others gave about keeping the flight short is a really good one.

I've found a planned flight of just 10-15 minutes is good. Maybe fly over the passengers house, school, or something else that they can relate to. This serves to keep their eyes outside the windows, which I find it helpful for first time passengers. If after the planned 10-15 minute flight, it's obvious that you're both enjoying it, then feel free to add some time to the flight!

When I first took my wife, I planned a short flight to get lunch about 15 minutes away, and had a few possible options in mind:

1. She enjoys it.. and we stay as planned.
2. She hates it right away, and we turn around, landing after just a turn in the pattern.
3. She tolerates it, but decides she doesn't want to do it again, in which case the two of us or just she would Uber back to our car and I'd get the plane later on, if needed.

Fortunately for me, #1 it was. But 2 and 3 were OK options in my mind too; at least we tried it.

Bottom line..stay flexible, communicate with your passenger, and try to read some body language to understand what they're not saying.
 
David ... I enjoyed your video. I am not one to critique your flying technique after just watching a video of your flight. However, I will share that the suggestion that others gave about keeping the flight short is a really good one.

I've found a planned flight of just 10-15 minutes is good. Maybe fly over the passengers house, school, or something else that they can relate to. This serves to keep their eyes outside the windows, which I find it helpful for first time passengers. If after the planned 10-15 minute flight, it's obvious that you're both enjoying it, then feel free to add some time to the flight!

When I first took my wife, I planned a short flight to get lunch about 15 minutes away, and had a few possible options in mind:

1. She enjoys it.. and we stay as planned.
2. She hates it right away, and we turn around, landing after just a turn in the pattern.
3. She tolerates it, but decides she doesn't want to do it again, in which case the two of us or just she would Uber back to our car and I'd get the plane later on, if needed.

Fortunately for me, #1 it was. But 2 and 3 were OK options in my mind too; at least we tried it.

Bottom line..stay flexible, communicate with your passenger, and try to read some body language to understand what they're not saying.

Thanks for you insight it's much appreciated.
 
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My ten-year-old granddaughter is special needs. Last summer she got the idea that she and I should fly in Papa’s airplane to Antarctica. We had several days of fun discussing what that might entail. I told her it would take more than a week to accomplish. With that, she volunteered the idea of putting a port-a-pot in the baggage area behind the seats… +1 for thinking ahead.

I suggested for her first time ever in a small plane it might be better to take a short trial flight before finalizing our plans. The following Sunday was sunny and warm and we set out for the airport with great excitement. I kept close tabs on her and looked for any signs of her changing her mind. We lined up and I asked her if she still wanted to fly to which she said yes. Once airborne she reached over to hold my hand tightly and I took it as a sign to make it a short flight. A real trooper...
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My ten-year-old granddaughter is special needs. Last summer she got the idea that she and I should fly in Papa’s airplane to Antarctica. We had several days of fun discussing what that might entail. I told her it would take more than a week to accomplish. With that, she volunteered the idea of putting a port-a-pot in the baggage area behind the seats… +1 for thinking ahead.

I suggested for her first time ever in a small plane it might be better to take a short trial flight before finalizing our plans. The following Sunday was sunny and warm and we set out for the airport with great excitement. I kept close tabs on her and looked for any signs of her changing her mind. We lined up and I asked her if she still wanted to fly to which she said yes. Once airborne she reached over to hold my hand tightly and I took it as a sign to make it a short flight. A real trooper...
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Thanks for sharing your story of your granddaughter first flight with you.
 
So after seeing some of the comments, I was expecting to see a flight of the "let me show you what this baby can do" variety. I hate it when people do that with new passengers.

Instead, what I saw was a guy taking a very nervous passenger for a nice VFR flight. Is the AOA giving goofy warnings? Probably. were you heavy on the stick or otherwise wrong in how you were handling the airplane? Didn't seem like it to me.

Early on, it seemed like there was quite a bit of abrupt banking back and forth, then I realized you're doing some sort of editing voodoo with the tail mounted camera so that it's pretty much staying level with the horizon, not banking with the airplane. I believe that makes all that back and forth look worse than what was probably just correcting for normal bumps.

At this point, I have no idea how many introductory flights or new to GA passengers I've had, but its been a lot. Here are a few thoughts about how I would handle a flight like this. Not saying it's the only right way, or even the best way, just some thoughts about what I would do.

Talk about expectations ahead of time and assure them that I'm not going to give them a roller coaster ride.

Try to fly early in the day before it gets bumpy.

Tell them it's cool if they want to take pictures or ask questions.

Tell them it's a really nice flying day so we may see or hear a few other airplanes.

Explain that if there are a few bumps close to the ground it's because the sun is heating up the earth and it's causing the hot air to rise, which causes the bumps. Just like hitting a pot hole on the freeway and not a big deal. "Bumps" is a happy friendly word, "TURBULENCE" is a scary Evening News word.

I wouldn't do my emergency checklists outloud. We know that it's totally normal, but my new passenger doesn't ever this about wrecking their car so the fact that we're specifically thinking about all these crash contingencies before we even get this death trap off the ground is a little freaky if they're nervous already.

My pre takeoff pax brief is something like:

"hey- this is how the seat belt works and, obviously not expecting this to happen, but if we have to get out of this thing in a hurry, here's how you open the canopy/door/whatever.

This thing that I'm pointing at is like a speedometer in a car, and this other thing I'm pointing at now shows us how high we are above sea level. You can see that right now, it's showing us how high this airport is, which is why it doesn't say zero.

We're going to start rolling down the runway and when we get to about 60 mph we're going to raise the nose a little and the airplane will start flying. We'll continue climbing straight ahead until were a nice safe height, probably around 500' more than what it says right now, and then start a gentle turn on course.

There's going to be some beeping and whatnot, and that's different systems telling me different things about the flight, like whether I've turned the autopilot off for example.

Any questions?"

Overall, I'll say good on you for taking your daughter flying, and good on her for being brave enough to give it a go, even though it's probably not in her wheel house.

Edit; I has one additional thought. We all know that landing is harder than taking off, but when a nervous inexperienced passenger hears that with no frame of reference, what they sometimes hear is "landing is hard, if I do it wrong I'm gonna die" when what we really mean is "landing was way harder to learn, if I do it wrong I'm gonna bounce." They have no clue what the bench marks are, so maybe in retrospect it would probably have gone a long way to say something like, "well, a pretty landing is harder to do than a pretty takeoff, why don't you rate me and see how pretty you think this one is?"
 
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Good tips, Terry. I currently have zero experience giving rides in my RV since I'm still in the testing phase, and it will be different from my past experience since it's a tandem. My stick is removable, and I plan to be very selective about my passengers access to it.

I can still recall my first flight in a small aircraft (Piper Tripacer, thanks Frank!) as a teenager and I was even at the controls while he hand propped it. It was amazing, but I was honestly worried that the wings might break off. Perhaps that was just me, but I do brief that the wings won't fall off to my non-pilot passengers - which is basically my family.

My normal method with a new passenger is to fly one circuit and land, shut down, get out, talk about it, and ask them if they want to go get some BBQ or see Enchanted Rock from the air (when in Texas) or go see the Alps up close. So far they have always wanted to continue, but this gives them an easy out. Last thing I want is someone that feels trapped in an aircraft with me! :)
 
So after seeing some of the comments, I was expecting to see a flight of the "let me show you what this baby can do" variety. I hate it when people do that with new passengers.

Instead, what I saw was a guy taking a very nervous passenger for a nice VFR flight. Is the AOA giving goofy warnings? Probably. were you heavy on the stick or otherwise wrong in how you were handling the airplane? Didn't seem like it to me.

Early on, it seemed like there was quite a bit of abrupt banking back and forth, then I realized you're doing some sort of editing voodoo with the tail mounted camera so that it's pretty much staying level with the horizon, not banking with the airplane. I believe that makes all that back and forth look worse than what was probably just correcting for normal bumps.

At this point, I have no idea how many introductory flights or new to GA passengers I've had, but its been a lot. Here are a few thoughts about how I would handle a flight like this. Not saying it's the only right way, or even the best way, just some thoughts about what I would do.

Talk about expectations ahead of time and assure them that I'm not going to give them a roller coaster ride.

Try to fly early in the day before it gets bumpy.

Tell them it's cool if they want to take pictures or ask questions.

Tell them it's a really nice flying day so we may see or hear a few other airplanes.

Explain that if there are a few bumps close to the ground it's because the sun is heating up the earth and it's causing the hot air to rise, which causes the bumps. Just like hitting a pot hole on the freeway and not a big deal. "Bumps" is a happy friendly word, "TURBULENCE" is a scary Evening News word.

I wouldn't do my emergency checklists outloud. We know that it's totally normal, but my new passenger doesn't ever this about wrecking their car so the fact that we're specifically thinking about all these crash contingencies before we even get this death trap off the ground is a little freaky if they're nervous already.

My pre takeoff pax brief is something like:

"hey- this is how the seat belt works and, obviously not expecting this to happen, but if we have to get out of this thing in a hurry, here's how you open the canopy/door/whatever.

This thing that I'm pointing at is like a speedometer in a car, and this other thing I'm pointing at now shows us how high we are above sea level. You can see that right now, it's showing us how high this airport is, which is why it doesn't say zero.

We're going to start rolling down the runway and when we get to about 60 mph we're going to raise the nose a little and the airplane will start flying. We'll continue climbing straight ahead until were a nice safe height, probably around 500' more than what it says right now, and then start a gentle turn on course.

There's going to be some beeping and whatnot, and that's different systems telling me different things about the flight, like whether I've turned the autopilot off for example.

Any questions?"

Overall, I'll say good on you for taking your daughter flying, and good on her for being brave enough to give it a go, even though it's probably not in her wheel house.

Edit; I has one additional thought. We all know that landing is harder than taking off, but when a nervous inexperienced passenger hears that with no frame of reference, what they sometimes hear is "landing is hard, if I do it wrong I'm gonna die" when what we really mean is "landing was way harder to learn, if I do it wrong I'm gonna bounce." They have no clue what the bench marks are, so maybe in retrospect it would probably have gone a long way to say something like, "well, a pretty landing is harder to do than a pretty takeoff, why don't you rate me and see how pretty you think this one is?"

Really good constructive input really appreciate it.
 
For 20 years I used to go to Columbus and Delaware twice a year for business. Never in that whole time did I see such a gorgeous, clear day!
 
Much Appreciate It

Thanks again for all the feedback I do so much appreciate it. If I had to do the flight over again I would definitely change the way I did the flight.
 
Ask your daughter, she was the one that was nervous.... exactly what parts of the flight made her nervous.

She is the ultimate judge, you took her for the ride in your plane.

I'd say, in general as a pilot, thinking out loud is probably not the best with the COM system on that plane.

I would also try to pick an absolutely glassy air first day flight for her, or at least the next time you try to take her up. Tell her you're going to pick a "best day" smooth air set of conditions to take her flying in, next time, and that it might be on short notice.

I'd also make shallow banked turns, if at all possible. A slow 180 to the downwind versus a couple of sharp turned squared off 90's pulls a lot less G's on the squeamish first time passenger on take off, or on landing. Space off your downwind a little farther out from the airport, if conditions allow it, and make shallower banked turns.

I'd say, the object is for you to look polished, in front of your daughter, and fiddle with less stuff on the instrument panel. You want to instill with her your confidence, and make it look like it's quite easy for you to fly, as you would when you drive, too. Smooth, calculated motions... Look professional. Keep the plane steady when fiddling with the Glass panels.
 
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Ask your daughter, she was the one that was nervous.... exactly what parts of the flight made her nervous.

She is the ultimate judge, you took her for the ride in your plane.

I'd say, in general as a pilot, thinking out loud is probably not the best with the COM system on that plane.

I would also try to pick an absolutely glassy air first day flight for her, or at least the next time you try to take her up. Tell her you're going to pick a "best day" smooth air set of conditions to take her flying in, next time, and that it might be on short notice.

I'd also make shallow banked turns, if at all possible. A slow 180 to the downwind versus a couple of sharp turned squared off 90's pulls a lot less G's on the squeamish first time passenger on take off, or on landing. Space off your downwind a little farther out from the airport, if conditions allow it, and make shallower banked turns.

I also find it helpful to announce your turns by saying “Ok, we are going to do a gentle left turn here..” and always try to make the turns so the nervous passenger is on the outside “up” part of the plane. I thing when you make a turn towards the passenger side, they feel more like they are going to fall out.
 
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