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Wind damaged rudder....advice.

tkatc

Well Known Member
While sitting on a ramp for a week in WV, my RV was damaged as 50kt winds whipped through the area. Despite being locked down she was weathervaned into the wind a bit and sustained damage when the rudder stop failed.
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The tip of the elevator punctured the rudder. the rudder is still straight and flies perfectly with duct tape but I need to address this ASAP.
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I'd hate to put a patch on the rudder....or anywhere really. The damage is the size of a 50 cent piece and some think I can repair this damage by filling it somehow. What say ye?
 
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Not that bad

Anything you do will need to be painted if you want it to look nice so consider just getting a new skin from Van.

I have re-skinned a rudder due to wind damage for a friend and to be honest I believe it is quicker than any equivalent looking patch you can do.

Most of the time I find myself spending more time agonizing over the job longer than it would take to just haul off and do it right to start with. :D
 
That's a bummer, the good news is... the RV8 and RV7 rudder are the same (hint hint).
 
That's a bummer, the good news is... the RV8 and RV7 rudder are the same (hint hint).

Not so Walt...at least mine are different. My -8 rudder has a bend at the trailing edge. The -7 is a solid edge.
 
Not so Walt...at least mine are different. My -8 rudder has a bend at the trailing edge. The -7 is a solid edge.

You must have the new style (RV9) rudder on the 7. It's still the same and will fit but the new rudder is a bit taller, so you would have to change the upper cap on the vert stab to match.
 
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I put a 6 inch "Roll Tide" sticker on mine and also one on the other side so it looks correct to cover up about the same amount of damage. Thought that would suffice until I got around to fixing it. That was a couple years ago and still haven't found a round toit yet :).
 
I put a 6 inch "Roll Tide" sticker on mine and also one on the other side so it looks correct to cover up about the same amount of damage. Thought that would suffice until I got around to fixing it. That was a couple years ago and still haven't found a round toit yet :).

I think mine would continue to be of service also but I have been doing some reading on micro-balloons and light weight fillers used specifically for this type of thing. My main concern is the crack propagating so I'm thinking strategic stop drilling would be in order first. Then some sort of wire mesh with a string through the center. Stuff the mesh in, work the bent metal outwards and flat, pull the string taught bringing the wire mesh flat with the inside surface, then use the micro-filler to cover the hole while adhering to the mesh behind. Let cure, sand smooth, then totally screw my paint job up!
 
I put a 6 inch "Roll Tide" sticker on mine and also one on the other side so it looks correct to cover up about the same amount of damage. Thought that would suffice until I got around to fixing it. That was a couple years ago and still haven't found a round toit yet :).

Ferrying a damaged aircraft after a thorough inspection is one thing, flying around with a damaged rudder for a couple of years cause you haven't got "round toit" yet, well I don't even know what to say.... but I guarantee you probably wouldn't like it :eek:
 
I think mine would continue to be of service also but I have been doing some reading on micro-balloons and light weight fillers used specifically for this type of thing. My main concern is the crack propagating so I'm thinking strategic stop drilling would be in order first. Then some sort of wire mesh with a string through the center. Stuff the mesh in, work the bent metal outwards and flat, pull the string taught bringing the wire mesh flat with the inside surface, then use the micro-filler to cover the hole while adhering to the mesh behind. Let cure, sand smooth, then totally screw my paint job up!

Say what!!! Sounds like you're fixing a hole in drywall :confused:

I don't think you're going to find "fill and paint" in FAA 43-13 structural repairs section. Your choices are:

1) Replace rudder
2) Re-skin
2) Install doubler

No fillers, stickers, wire mesh, string or chewing gum, please!

43-13, Chapt 4

Patching of Small Holes.

Small holes in skin panels which do not involve damage to
the stiffening members may be patched by
covering the hole with a patch plate in the
manner shown in figure 4-16. Flush patches
also may be installed in stressed-skin type construction.
An acceptable and easy flush patch
may be made by trimming out the damaged
area and then installing a conventional patch
on the underneath side or back of the sheet
being repaired. A plug patch plate of the same
size and skin thickness as the opening may
then be inserted and riveted to the patch plate.
Other types of flush patches similar to those used
for patching plywood may be used. The
rivet pattern used, however, must follow standard
practice to maintain satisfactory strength
in the sheet.
 
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Foil tape to get it home and a flush patch would be my fix. Then get a better gust lock. I use my bogi-bar with welded tabs that fit into rudder pedal slots.
 
You must have the old style (small) rudder on the 7. It's still the same and will fit but the new rudder is a bit taller, so you would have to change the upper cap on the vert stab to match.

My 7A is serial #71026 and was after the rudder size increase and it has the AEX trailing edge wedge...didn't they just swap in the 9 rudder?
 
Need a fix?

I say put a heavy duty doubler on it so if it ever happens again the rudder can teach the elevator who's boss :D
 
repair

Remove damage in an oval shape. Fabricate and install a joggled internal repair doubler similar to a Money inspection panel using the same blind flush rivets as on the spar. Hole size is likely to be determined by tooling (to dimple). Thread it together with saftey wire until you can capture it with clecos. Rivet spacing same as on spar. You should be able to justify this as being structurally equivalent to an external doubler in AC 43-13. This gives you a flush repair without the internal landing and half the rivets.
P.M. me if this sound interesting, I would be happy to walk you through it.
 
Wow this looks familiar !
I had the same thing happen to me with my 7 while I was visiting my kids in wheatherford tx last year. We flew in and the WX was fine and the outlook was good for the next few days. The next day the wind got gusty and before I could get to the airport the rudder took a beating. The elevater punch a hole in the rudder just like your did. What a bummer!,, I had about 50 hrs on my plane.
Anyway have you flown your plane yet ? The point I wanted to make here is that after I put some duct tape over the hole and inspected the rudder, I test flew the airplane before heading back home ( Monroe la. Kmlu ) during the take off roll I noticed that I had to really put in a lot of right rudder! I mean a lot of right rudder. I took off and flew around the pattern and noticed the rudder was damaged more that what I could see. I landed and inspected the rudder again with another set of eyes from the local A&P. everything I could see looked great other than the hole in the rudder, cables,attach points, alignment looked fine.
So I headed home and flew in a slit crab all the way. I got home and flew to Farmerville airport where we built my plane. I showed mr glen Barron my problem and he inspected the rudder. He suggested to patch the rudder and it would be fine. I told him about the amount of rudder needed to stay corrinated and he said let's go fly it. We took off and leveled off and I gave the plane to him. Few seconds later he said something wrong lets land. Once on the the ground again we inspected the rudder again------
I took a straight edge and placed it horizontally so the edge would run against the rudder all the way out past the edge on the trailing edge. I found out that the traing edge was bent about 1/32 I took my hands and bent the edge back as straight as I could.. I test flew the plane and I flew great!!!!
I was amazed that the wind whipped the rudder hard enough to do this....
Anyway I decided to build a new rudder and change to the original one. The same as the 8. I changed out the rudder with the new smaller one and I'm glad I did.

Dan Peeler
RV 7A
 
Suggestions

Tony,
The exact same thing happened to a friend of mine.
I talked him into building a new "8" rudder because I had heard that they have a much better "feel".
He did it, and after I flew his 7A with the 8 rudder I had to have one too!

It's like power steering! I love it!
The 8 rudder is about 4" narrower front to back, and about 2" shorter.

My old "large" rudder is available if you would like to make an offer also.
It looks to be almost the same color:D

I'd suggest you build a new "8" rudder as first choice.
Second choice would be to build another "large" rudder or buy mine:)

Looks like my friend was typing as I was. See post#19.

Mark
 
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Photos please

Foil tape to get it home and a flush patch would be my fix. Then get a better gust lock. I use my bogi-bar with welded tabs that fit into rudder pedal slots.

Wayne, can you post a photo of your converted bogi-bar gust lock. Sounds like a great idea and I am looking for a supplement to my airgizmo's rudder/vs lock.
 
I tossed the "9" rudder Van's sent out with the kit and installed the smalller
"8" style rudder too... Like pure magic! :D
 
I just bought a -7 kit and it came with the "large rudder" according to the seller. He said that the kits started out with a smaller rudder but it was later changed and so he got the new style large rudder and thats what came with the kit. Are you guys saying that the new larger rudder is not as good as the smaller original one? And that the old smaller -7 rudder is the same as the 8's and the larger new 7 rudder is the same as a 9's?

If the old rudder was better why did the factory change it? And why not change it back since I haven't seen anyone saying , no, the larger rudder is better for the -7?
 
I believe the change was made to the larger rudder to improve spin recovery, so it's not about "feel".

On the subject of feel, the two apparent differences are size/shape and trailing edge. I am reminded of the discussions about squeezing the trailing edge of the ailerons to fix a heavy wing. I remember comments that the narrower the trailing edge, the heavier the aileron feel. Is that also applying to the rudder, where the round folded edge of the 8 is lighter in feel than the sharp edge wedge on the 7 or is it more about overall size and shape rather than trailing edge?
 
Help?

Tony,

If you decide to re skin and want some help let me know. Somehow I've gotten really good a drilling out rivets. :eek:

Tom
 
I had the elevator pulled all the way back and secured by the seatbelt. The rudder lock is a thin bar stock bent in a "u" shape that sits upside down through small holes on the rudder stop and bottom of rudder. This lock worked itself out through the course of continuous gusting even though I had wrapped a "remove before flight" tag around the assembly numerous times. While I won't say this is ideal it had served me well in the past, even during several t-storms at OSH.
 
Tony,

It happened to me too. First time my rudder lock got twisted and part of the trailing edge got pulled open. The repaired rudder had a twist so I built a new rudder (a few hundred dollars). After that event I up sized the u shaped rudder lock. It got bent in another strong gust so I added one more. Now I have two locks, one for each side. A year ago it got hit by a strong thunderstorm, both locks popped out. Fortunately rudder did not hit the elevator for I had control stick tied with seat belt and the elevator was at the up position (at the neutral position it is closer to the rudder). Now I tie rudder locks to the rudder horn to prevent it getting popped out.
 
I use the same upside "U" rudder lock on my -7A. I think it's 3/16" music wire or stainless. I've had it work itself almost out in moderate wind, fortunately no damage. I took a short flat bungee (about 12"), hooked one end on the lock and wrapped it around the tie-down ring a couple of times and hooked the other end on the lock. Both ends pulling down works OK until the bungee gets tired, so I replace it every year.

Mike
 
My RV-8A

sustained a damaged rudder due to my poor downwind landing technique. I duck taped it up and limped back home for repair. Judgement of all the present aviation advisory council (hanger rats) was replace the skin and ribs. I ordered and received in less than a week. Removed, disassembled and rebuilt in one Saturday and primed on Sunday. Painted and cured by the following weekend up and flying. As soon as the tears dry up just get with it and start building. Really goes fast after building a whole airplane and really a snap.
Good luck, Bill of Georgia RV-8A "Bluebird" N288WP 96 hrs
 
Ok...I was VERY reluctant to re-skin this thing but I cannot ignore superior wisdom. I ordered the left AND right skin, the trailing edge wedge, all the stiffeners, and some proseal. I believe if I am careful I can salvage the framework. Those parts came to $180 plus approx $50 shipping.

After I rebuild, I will try to paint it myself. I have the paint codes but no idea how to paint the rudder. I know the paint was a Glasurit product. Base coat then clear coat. I will probably get an early education on fillers/fiberglass/epoxy as I repair and blend the existing top and bottom tips. I know I will be doing that stuff on my -8 when the time comes but I just didn't want to get that education this early....
 
I put a 6 inch "Roll Tide" sticker on mine and also one on the other side so it looks correct to cover up about the same amount of damage. Thought that would suffice until I got around to fixing it. That was a couple years ago and still haven't found a round toit yet :).

You can order them here :D
 
If you've never painted before, there's science & art in shooting these paints. You'll be a LOT happier if you take the completed rudder to an autobody shop and just have them shoot it. It can't cost much and will without a doubt save you headaches.
 
A Solution to this type of damage

You might want to check out the Gust Buster. It is engineered to prevent this very type of damage.
 
Practice "drilling out" flush rivets. Do not drill through the rivet! Get good at it before proceeding. At least you have a thicker spar backing up where you need to remove the rivets so even if you damage the skin you have a good chance of keeping the hole intact, unless you drive a drill through it!
 
Damaged Rudder

Build a new one! I just built one in a weekend for the same reason.. About $400 in parts from Van's....

While sitting on a ramp for a week in WV, my RV was damaged as 50kt winds whipped through the area. Despite being locked down she was weathervaned into the wind a bit and sustained damage when the rudder stop failed.

The tip of the elevator punctured the rudder. the rudder is still straight and flies perfectly with duct tape but I need to address this ASAP.

I'd hate to put a patch on the rudder....or anywhere really. The damage is the size of a 50 cent piece and some think I can repair this damage by filling it somehow. What say ye?
 
Reluctantly, I gave into conventional wisdom and decided to re-skin the rudder. The damaged looked so small I thought I could just patch it but nope...

I ordered the skins and stiffeners and they will be here tomorrow. So I removed the rudder and dismantled it. The plane looks preety funny without it.
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I can hardly believe I'm about to grind into this paint to find the center of the rivets...
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It's a very messy, tedious job.
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test.jpg


For anyone concerned about not priming....this is a 7 year old rudder (flying for 7 years) that has seen rain on the ramp and in the air on several occasions. Clean as the day is was assembled.
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The damaged skin is removed.
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All parts are ready to go. I will have to use a few 1097 rivets but overall it came apart just fine.
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I'm not worried so much about the build but rather the paint and prep that is required to match the rest of the plane. I have no idea where to even begin on that.
 
Very interested.....

You might want to check out the Gust Buster. It is engineered to prevent this very type of damage.

....in this product - reviewed the website and test videos over the weekend - This has my attention, and may also have my dollars dedicated to it - just as soon as I know that one is available for the 8....

Only thing I am not sure about are the aileron bungees fitting over an Infinity Stick grip without damaging it, but the rudder control mechanism looks promising to me.
 
....Only thing I am not sure about are the aileron bungees fitting over an Infinity Stick grip without damaging it, but the rudder control mechanism looks promising to me.

Works fine with my Tosten. I don't see any issue using it with an Infinity.
 
I'm not worried so much about the build but rather the paint and prep that is required to match the rest of the plane. I have no idea where to even begin on that.

Save your old skin. A good shop can optical scan it and match the paint perfectly. It evens accounts for fading, if the was any. Also you can measure to transfer any striping to the new skin. Bob B might have the old paint codes so you'll know what was done before.
 
Thanks Brian. I do have the codes for the paint. Good ole Bob B wrote them in the log books. I was thinking about him a lot today as I was ruining his hard work. It was interesting to see what Bob did under the skins. I looked at the rudder horn and a few other error prone areas. Top quality work!
 
N174BK was one of the first and nicest RVs my wife had seen. We drove out to Oregon in 2007 and ordered my fuselage. Bob was willing to let us in his shop...even though he was out of town. :eek: I've come to find out, That's how most RV owners are! I took 100 pictures of your plane. Heck I even wanted his "N" number.
 
Paint

Looking good Tony.

Better to have the paint scanned and reformulated rather then rely on the original paint code to allow for fade.
 
Tony,
Paint the rudder checkerboard. That will match anything and look real cool!

Email me a pic of your plane and I will do the tail checkerboard for you to see what it looks like.
 
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Rocky,
I know you are a good craftsman, I saw your antler work this weekend, but I am tryin to match one color, not TWO! :D. Besides, I want to return the plane to its original scheme to honor the builder.
 
I don't know. He destroyed perfect rudder. Could be patched per AC43... All my duct tape is gone. Your West Virginian citizenship will be revoked :D
 
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