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RV-3 flying/landing techniques

V

VCMaine

Active Member
A former Cherokee and TR-2 driver, I love my new RV-3A. Bought it in March with 700+ hours on the airframe after inspection by an RV pilot/licensed mechanic. It has 160hp with a wood climb prop, 68x69. Climbs like a homesick angel. With 40 hours in it now, I have a couple of questions of other RV-3 drivers.

1. Loops: What is best entry speed and what should be the resulting speed at the top of a loop? I tend to fall out of the top of the loop, too slow at the top maybe?

2. Flap management: I throttle back, add aft trim, and then at 80-90mph about even with end of runway on downwind, pull full flaps in one step. Seems efficient. That's what I did in the TR-2. What are other drivers doing for flap management in landings?

3. Landing distance: It stalls clean, power off at 51mph indicated as advertised. I can full stall land it well enough, (tail wheel first by a bit) but I'm using a bunch more than the billed "350" foot landing distance on pavement. At what speed do other drivers come over the fence for a full stall, short field landing?

4. Stick Forces: I love the control setup generally, but the aileron stick forces at 120-140mph are higher than I expected, based on the universal acolades accorded RVs. I removed the trim springs, no difference. Nothing binding in the mech in preflight; easy full throw to either side. There is not a lot of clearance between the aileron leading edges and the wings but no interference. Does that make a difference? Any ideas? Maybe I just expect too much?

Thanks, guys. Any other flying technique/tips appreciated. My only regret is that I did not get into an RV sooner.
 
Landing distance...

VCMaine said:
3. Landing distance: It stalls clean, power off at 51mph indicated as advertised. I can full stall land it well enough, (tail wheel first by a bit) but I'm using a bunch more than the billed "350" foot landing distance on pavement. At what speed do other drivers come over the fence for a full stall, short field landing?
Click to expand...

I've seen the same thing. When touching tailwheel first, I tended to get some bounce on the mains, which is not conducive to shortfield. I'd suggest getting cg moved forward (assuming you've got room in the envelope) and try again. If you can 3 point it smoothly, I think you'll be happier with the results. As far as speeds, when conditions were calm, I've come in slower than 60, but it really feels like you are dragging it in and it's hard to see over the nose (for me a good indication of an impending tail wheel first landing).

That's my 2 cents. I'd like to hear others thoughts as well.
 
I'll take a stab at it from a -4's aspect

1: 180 MPH then a 3-3.5G pull will give you a big nice loop. You can loop it way down in speed. I've done 140's in my -4 and it had more (I didn't).

2: To make my base tighter I chop the power on downwind... This puts me about 120 MPH abeam the numbers. Keep it at 120 MPH at idle then turn base and pull a few G's to bleed it down to 105-110. Do the same on the turn to final ending up around 95 MPH. Dump in full flaps and slow down to your favorite landing speed. I use less than full flaps when it's windy and I plan a power on wheel landing.

3: I have a -4 so it's different. Something tells me the published landing distances are really roll-out distance for us mortal pilots. As long as I can turn off at the 1600' taxiway without using brakes at my home base, I consider my landings short enough.

4: If the trailing edge of the ailerons are tight then the stick forces will be higher. I'd just fly the **** out of it and chalk it up to it being a hand-built, one-off, home-built aircraft. (Like all the hyphens?)
 
With only 20 hours on my RV-3

landing the RV-3 for me as follows; downwind indicated 100 mph, (electric flaps) down 20 degrees, turn base lower to 30 degrees at 90 mph and on final full flaps across the fence at or near 65/70 mph and wheel land. On grass I three point with a bit less airspeed across the fence. After the Cassutt, all RV-3 landings are short field.

Controls; my ailerons are real light and my elevator is real heavy as compared to my Cassutt. I have given thought to a servo tab to lighten elevator forces. On landing with full up trim, I feel that they are heavy.

Blue Skies to all
 
Landing

My -3 stalls at an indicated 62mph and I assume there must be some error in the AS system since everybody else stalls in the low 50s, 160hp, wood prop, light airplane. GPS and AS are very close at cruse, but I've never checked it at stall speed. To land, I like to slow to about 140 before entering downwind leg, then slow to 100 and drop flaps to first notch and add full aft elevator trim. On base go to 2nd notch flaps and 90-95 mph. I like to keep speed a little on the high side so if engine quits, I can retract flaps if needed and fly it in like a flapped sailplane. On short final I see 80-85 mph, and I wheel land it because it is much easier than a three point landing. I usually bounce a three point landing and visibility over the nose is much better with a wheel landing. I also plan to be a little high and have to slip to kill that last bit of altitude on final. I operate out of a 1800' grass strip and would not want to use one more than a couple hundred shorter for landing. I read Van operated his -3 out of a 700 and some foot strip, but his original -3 was very light and had a mechanism that dropped the ailerons along with the flaps for landing. I would never attempt landing on a 700' strip, take-off yes, easy.
 
I've got more than a couple of thousand landings in an RV3
(no two alike :). I try to fly fairly tight patterns so 100 abeam the numbers then 1 notch of flaps, slow to 80 on base, 2nd notch of flaps on turn to final and 60 across the numbers. As mentioned above I can do 55 across the numbers but it does feel like I'm dragging it in and visability over the nose is not the best. I rarely practice short field landings but I would consider a 800 foot runway minimum length for me.
Tom
 
Tom! Good to see you're still on here chiming in. I was going to ask you in private, but with this subject in the public domain, your tips could help others too.

Whaddayouthink, wheelies or 3 pointers? Decelerating to 60 across the fence seems about right for a Vso of 49 mph indicated that I observed. I have a total of 2 landings now, a tail first on the first one and a tail low almost 3 pointer next, and the 2nd was smoother, so that seems to be the proper attitude. (Soon I'll have a bunch more...) In my Citabria, I prefer 3 pointers and they actually tend to be pretty much the same, but I've had that plane for 6 years now.

978TM is now sporting a D-10A with a/p and Duckworks lights for more touring capability. After my vacation ends, I'll get it to its new home. Great machine.
 
Drooping ailerons??

wilddog said:
I read Van operated his -3 out of a 700 and some foot strip, but his original -3 was very light and had a mechanism that dropped the ailerons along with the flaps for landing..
Click to expand...

Wilddog

A stol kit? :eek:

Do you remember where you came across this tidbit? I'd like to read about this myself, as it doesn't sound like the RV-3 philosophy. Van in a nutshell always comes off to me as "simple = good". Please educate us.
 
Wow. Thanks for the comments! Guess the consensus is to avoid really short fields. I like tight patterns too, full flaps at 80mph with a good slip 'round the corner and roll out to a short final at 65, more if windy. I like wheel landings, too. This plane makes me look good.

Re the aerobatic stuff. Has anyone put together an RV-3/4 guide to airspeed and G ranges for all the basic manuvers? Or can someone post from their own experience? I have some Citabria time, but its a different critter.
 
Stan,

I just pulled the article out of my -3 file. It's in Oct,1972 Sport Aviation and I don't have a way to post it on here. There is a picture of the device, the caption says ".....aileron drooping device. the lever at the base of the stick can be thrown over to the right to.... shorten the aileron push rods, thus drooping both. Lower stall speed is the advantage gained..." This was Van's first -3, N17RV , 0-290G, 695#ew. Article says it is flown from a 670' strip!!!

Bill
 
VCMaine said:
Re the aerobatic stuff. Has anyone put together an RV-3/4 guide to airspeed and G ranges for all the basic manuvers? Or can someone post from their own experience? I have some Citabria time, but its a different critter.
Click to expand...

Verne, has your -3A had both CN-1 and CN-2 wing mods done? The "A" designation doesn't clarify this. If not, then it should be operated per the utility load limit of 4.4G. This will affect how you fly the airplane, especially doing acro. That being said, there's a tendency for folks new to acro or acro in new airplanes to be a bit concerned about entry speeds and g-loads for various maneuvers. The fact is that most basic maneuvers can be done across a wide range of speeds and g-loads.

You could do loops anywhere from 100 mph to Vne. At Vne, you might be able to do a loop with as little as a 2G pull. Or you could pull to the limit. The lower the airspeed, the more critical technique becomes. You could do ballistic (zero G) rolls slower than the normal 1G stall speed...or you could do a roll at Vne.

If we're talking competion quality maneuvers, then airspeed becomes more critical, since you need enough energy to make your looping segments round, perform maneuvers on uplines without falling out, etc. But if you're just doing positive G whifferdill stuff, then it's pretty much whatever speed/load that can get the job done. A loop that you fall through from low speed/low G is still a loop.

There's no magic or specific techniques required for doing acro in RV's. I would definitely not encourage self-taught acro, but if you've had sufficient acro/spin training, then you can jump right into the RV and start playing around with different techniques. You'll learn pretty quick what your style is and what's needed. Aerobatics is not about by-the-book numbers, it's about developing a feel for your airplane and learning its performance limits and how to feel though the controls where those limits are.
 
Tight Squeeze for a Three..

I shared my hangar with a nice 0-320 very lightweight early model three for several years. We would trade off when he wanted to give a ride in my RV4. I greatly enjoyed the three and have always enjoyed a single seater having spent a large part of my adult life in one (F16). RV3 acro was very close to the four but much lighter in pitch and could easily go over the top with a 120 mph entry. I used 150 for both aircraft for loops and cuban eights, 180 for vertical rolls. As Eric stated, get some instruction if you have never tried it.
I traveled to my friend Arvil's 900' strip on several occasions and my 1800' strip regularly. The -3 could easily fly final at 62 knots with a healthy rate of descent and a blast of power just before touchdown to avoid a hard landing. I use 1000' for my minimum runway length no wind but landed and stopped both airplanes on grass in 500' many times, lots of practice..

However, the Rocket is a whole nuther animal...:)

Smokey
HR2
 
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RV3 Pilot said:
I've got more than a couple of thousand landings in an RV3
(no two alike :). I try to fly fairly tight patterns so 100 abeam the numbers then 1 notch of flaps, slow to 80 on base, 2nd notch of flaps on turn to final and 60 across the numbers. As mentioned above I can do 55 across the numbers but it does feel like I'm dragging it in and visability over the nose is not the best. I rarely practice short field landings but I would consider a 800 foot runway minimum length for me.
Tom
Click to expand...

Exactly the same numbers as I use for my six A............ solo! Except landings are consistent.
 
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asav8tor said:
No matter how good you are....... heed this advice.

No CN-1 & CN-2 = no aerobatics.
Click to expand...

Yes, "no aerobatics" is the stance taken by Vans Aircraft. This subject has been whipped to death many times, but I'll say that safe aerobatics in any airplane depends on the pilot, not the airplane. There is nothing magical about the 6G stress rating. Some pilots may not be safe doing aerobatics in an aircraft with an operational 9G limit.

An aircraft stressed for 6G simply provides more margin for error than an aircraft with an operational 4.4G limit (unmodded RV-3). Anyone with the competence required (this is the key) can do basic "whifferdill" acro all day long at 3-3.5G without even paying much attention. I'm not making a general recommendation for doing this, but again stating that the pilot is the critical factor, which is why I don't like across-the-board edicts and admonishments. Vans Aircraft has their reasons for this position, and given their legal responsibilities, should do no differently.

Regardless of the strength and capabilities of any particular aircarft, pilots will still push them to their operating limits, whether it's a 4.4G RV-3, a 6G Pitts, or a 10G Edge 540. To me, it's all a continuum, and other than legality, 6G's is arbitrary and has no magic when it comes to safety. You must use good judgment and fly any airplane within its operating limitations whether you're doing aerobatics or not. Plus, the term "aerobatics" is so vague that it could pretty much be anything...and it pretty much is according to the FAA if you look up their definition. So make sure you have the training and judgment to fly any maneuver safely in the aircraft you're in, whether it's a steep turn, a 1G roll, a 3G loop, or high-speed Sean Tucker-like gyroscopics.
 
Aero in RV-3

From Randy's POH: (remember that his aircraft is a -3B!)

http://www.romeolima.com/RV3works/N223RLdocs-ORIGINALS/N223RL-POH.doc

Aerobatic Weight & CG Limitation
Aerobatic maneuvers generating more than 4.4 Gs must be flown with gross weight not exceeding 1050 lbs. (plus fuel, total weight not to exceed aircraft gross weight of 1,300 lbs) and C.G. not aft of 64.58?.
Maneuver
Entry speed IAS
Aileron roll, Barrel roll
130 ? 200 mph
Wingover, Chandelle
140 ? 200 mph
Loops, Horizontal eights
160 ? 200 mph
Immelman
160 ? 200 mph
Split-S
90 ? 110 mph

Best to not attempt aero without training!

Barney, in Memphis
RV-3 & 4 flying
 
aileron drooping- Stol mod (+ taper pins)

Bill,
Thanks for the article. I'm trying not to choke on my previous skepticism ;) The picture scanned well enough, I think I can visualize the likely internals. The actuator probably contains a cam like device. Reminds me of the hardware used to draw table leaves together. Once again, looks like a simple and elegant solution brought to us by Van :eek:

I wonder if this unit showed up in some of the early plans? Regardless, without to much trouble, this could be reverse engineered, in that 18 degrees of droop is equal to a certain distance, the device would need to do that for both the left and right side.

Also noticed in the photo- the splice plates are holding the elusive taper pins, not close tolerance bolts. One can see the taper pins sticking out forward, farther than a bolt head would. As an owner of a taper pin equipped aircraft, it is nice to have visual confirmation that this was used by Van and not solely a variation added by a few builders.

Best regards
 
N903NB

I just purchased an RV3B. I have quite a few hours in Aeroncas and Stinson 108's. Any advice for the first few flights in the RV? How about landing it? Easy or more difficult than my Stinsons ?

Thanks,

Al
 
HMM?

Hi Allen
This my advise from my experience with a RV3A with all hard runways.
If your runway is long enough, creep up to about 18-20 and ease the stick forward till your level, at this point take a photo copy (in your brain) of your horizon and your attitude. This attitude is what you will pretty much need and want to see for a wheel landing. Wheel landings at first.
Keep your final speed on your first landings around 70, not a lot of sink and if your over 75 you could float. Can't keep her at 70-75 on final, go around till you can, seriously. About 65 over the numbers.
BE prepared for a little power and a go around if you get ANY kind of a bounce, if you just sit there and don't do any of that pilot stuff you will keep bouncing higher and higher and your landing will be like a fair ride.
The RV3 is a great ground handling plane and you should be able to wheelie your bird with very little practice and if you can't something isn't right in the gear.
I had a RV3 for 2 years and did 4-8 landings a month and never could get proficient enough to do a three point.
Hope this helps, I asked the same question several years ago when I first got my RV3. My numbers are based on mph and light wind.
I miss my RV3 BAD! I hope to own one again some day.

Robert Ruggles
Surprise AZ
 
Van's Advice

Hi, Al...

In the 2003 RVator (1st and 2nd issues), Van himself wrote a couple of articles on how to land an RV. (Page 379 of the 24 Years of the RVator collection). Some key points:
...Use what Van calls an "attitude landing", basically a tail-low wheel landing.
...Use an approach speed of 1.4 times the the stall speed for your landing configuration (vs. the normally recommended 1.3 factor for most small planes). This is mostly because of the high sink rate associated with the short wings at slow speed. Bump the speed up a bit for near-gross-weight or gusty conditions.
...Sit as high in the cockpit as possible for better visibility over the nose. Add cushions if needed.
...Take a few seconds before takeoff to fix the sight picture of the landing configuration in your mind.
...Get plenty of slow flight practice to learn the feel of the airplane at slow speeds.
...Don't rely on ground effect in the flare - because of the short wings.
...Set the trim for a slightly nose-heavy feel so you only have to vary the "pull" force while making the final attitude adjustments.
...You want to be very close to the runway as you bleed off the speed prior to touchdown - the short wings cause high sink rates at slow speed.
...Try relaxing the back pressure on the stick slightly as the mains touch - keep the tailwheel off for a bit as the speed slows until the wing isn't flying. Trying to pin the tailwheel on too soon can lead to the mains coming back off if the wing is still generating lift.

And a couple of things that helped me as I transitioned from landing a J-3 to landing my RV-3:
...Prepare for a go-around, then surprise yourself with a landing. The RV-3 will be flying again almost instantly if you shove in the throttle. Better to try again rather than fixating on the landing regardless of what the plane is doing.
...Remind yourself to relax when you turn final - sit back and fly the plane with your fingertips. My landings are much better when I'm not leaning forward with the stick in a death grip.
...Do whatever you have to with the stick and rudder to keep the nose pointed straight down the runway on the approach and touchdown - the RV-3 is very responsive and handles well on the ground, but like any taildragger it handles best when the tail is kept directly behind the nose.

Hope this helps.

...Joe
 
Allen Starr N903NB

Thank you for your responses. I flew the RV for the first time Sunday evening. What a great plane! Ive owned 15 planes over the years, all production planes, and what a difference. This is a great, fast, responsive airplane. My landing wasnt the best but I got it down with no damage! I just need to get used to the higher sink rate and the speed of this plane and I will be just fine. I should have joined the RV ranks earlier.

Thank you again, and what a great, helpful group.

Al
 
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