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SERVICE BULLETIN 14-08-29

Tell me about it :(

Vans have the SB kits but no nose strut parts? :(:(

Gounded for 5-6 weeks :(:(:(:(:(

Better than a accident on a runway somewhere I guess :)
 
Wow, not the easiest fix if you have cracks!

That's exactly right. It would be interesting to know just how many -10's have cracks and how many hours they had when discovered. So far we only know of 2 cases, I think, with many that don't have cracks, even with over 1,000 flight hours. It would be interesting to know how close together the two with damage were manufactured.
 
I've got a question for everyone. If I haven't ordered the finishing kit or firewall forward kit, does this effect me?
 
From the Service Bulletin itself:
"Engine mounts shipped after August 13, 2014 are not affected by this service bulletin."

So, you're ok.
 
It was time for my 50 hour oil change, so I took this opportunity to inspect the Nose Gear on my RV-10. My RV-10 now has 1140 hours on the Hobbs, about 5% of my landings are on grass runways, some even have rolling mounds like in Port Elgin, Canada (CNL4). I always keep the nose off the ground until full aft elevator won't allow it.
I was glad to see and report that mine doesn't have any cracks in the mount where the donuts rest up against it. However I did see the bolt that goes between the donut shaft and the nose gear legs had signs of wearing. Also the two bolts that hold the gear leg to the mount in two places were also showing signs of wear. I'm going to go ahead and replace these bolts while I'm at it.

Mount.JPG


Donut.JPG


Bolt1.JPG


Bolt2.JPG


Thanks

Ray Doerr
N519RV (40250) Hobbs=1140
 
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Ray, You have similar hours and I agree we have some wear in the bolts and bushes, again most likely accelerated due to the rough surface issues. We are replacing them all.

I think the high frequency hammering the elastomer plate cops on an uneven surface is considerable compared to a bitumen runway.

It will be interesting to watch over the next 1000 hours how this develops. It will be an annual inspection item from here on.
 
That's exactly right. It would be interesting to know just how many -10's have cracks and how many hours they had when discovered. So far we only know of 2 cases, I think, ......

Jesse I counted 4 so far:

-Roger Hopkinson 1st reported 2 years ago
-Vic with close to 1000hrs
-Louis Palmenteri unknown hours
-David Brown AUS with over 1000hrs

The serial will not help as the engine mounts mostly are bought a while after that big box holding the plane parts.

Cheers

Werner
 
From what I see with Rays photos, it looks like a beginner did the welding on the mount. Mine looked similar with 300 hours and no cracks.
 
It would be great to know when those 4 finishing kits were ordered.

I have seen another engine mount that looks very much like Vic's, but that was after an accident where the nose wheel folded back up under the fuse. There's no way to know if the damage was there prior to the accident.
 
Our kit was shipped around September 2008. It arrived by sea December 2008 and was flying 28/6/2009.

Oddly enough the cracks visible from above in Vic's photos do not exist in ours.
 
Engine mount removed in 3 hours!

Repair on Monday by certified welder.

Be flying Tuesday.

Thank you to Mike Gregory and also the folk at Vans for shipping things promptly.
 
No crack repair done yesterday on a -10. Total of about 3 man hours including removing and reinstalling cowl and powder coating the plate. We put an engine hoist on the engine and lifted until the bar came out of the hole, then made sure the plate fit with no interference, then powder coated it and installed it. Not a big job.
 
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installing the doubler

For those of you installing the doubler, I really think it needs some sort of attachment. Either proseal, structural adhesive or some Cheryy Max rivets. I have discussed this with Van's.

Vic
 
I don't disagree with you, Vic, but I don't like any of those options with steel parts. Either way, I'd worry about trapping moisture and potential for corrosion. Since my mount is currently off the project (I'm doing firewall stuff), I have the luxury of having it welded in place, cleaned, and re-powdercoating it. But for those who are doing a flying fix, think about corrosion protection. I'd say something between the two parts to help keep the powdercoat or paint intact, especially if you don't use fasteners because I'd expect there to be some vibration otherwise.
 
is it normal for wd-1016?

did the inspection. NO crack. 400hre all paved runway.
I found some mark on my wd-1016. It look a little bit more than the powder coating. Not much. Is it normal?. It look like it's the area were it rub against de-1001-e elastomer plate.

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah45/Lan_Vinh_Do/14-08-29/photo3_zpsd87de0e6.jpg

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah45/Lan_Vinh_Do/14-08-29/photo5_zps552e0e43.jpg

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah45/Lan_Vinh_Do/14-08-29/photo2_zps658dc6a7.jpg

I also trimmed the plate so it's ready to paint. What paint do you use. I may go to a powder coating shop but if not, what to use?

Thank You
 
For those of you installing the doubler, I really think it needs some sort of attachment. Either proseal, structural adhesive or some Cheryy Max rivets. I have discussed this with Van's.

Vic

Vic,
Your recommendations were given serious consideration (actually they had been considered before you recommended them), but in the end the decision was made to issue the NOTIFICATION without recommending any type of attachment for a couple of reasons.

- It is difficult to describe placement of a sealant or material in a way that everyone will do it the same. A very thin layer would be desired. People that didn't do so could be inducing other problems.
- There are doubts whether Proseal or any other adhesive would hold up under the abusive load cycles this area of the nose gear system gets.
Rivets or other semi-permanent attachment would make it difficult to do any inspection of the surfaces. As currently designed, removal of one bolt during the condition inspection will allow good inspection of the area inspection

If the doubler is installed without welding (as done in the case of no cracks found) and is installed as prescribed, with some compression pre-load on the elastomers even when the nose gear leg is hanging free, and it is maintained in this state; the engineering team involved with developing the change believes it will work as designed as is.
 
Scott,
I agree with Vic.
My concern is as the elastomer donuts contract, space develops between the donuts and the weldment when it is unloaded in flight. I have had this happen twice in 300 hours, and had to insert shims to remedy. You can here it rattle during taxi. When this occurs, my concern is that the edges of the new plate insert will rub on the 4 tubes going into the current bracket. We can see this as currently evidenced by the elastomer metal washer today. I do agree that adhesive in between the new plate and the old one may not be the right answer, but using a thin enough layer might prevent this situation from occurring I don't have the answer other than to weld the new reinforcement plate even on the non-cracking mounts.
Did engineering look at this situation Scott?
 
I completed the no-crack SB on my RV-10 this morning. I painted the plate yesterday and let it dry over night. This morning I put a small ring of red RTV on the plate half way between the inner circle and the outer edge. I stuck this into position to ensure the plate doesn't come close to any of the engine mount tubes at the corners. Then I lowered the airplane and a little of the pro seal squeeze out the side. Cleaned that up and then install the top cap with a single washer spacer.

I like Vic told Van's that it needs some way to stop the plate from vibrating around and destroying the engine mount tube and they agreed, but didn't really suggest anything.

Thanks

Ray Doerr
N519RV (1140 hours)
40250
 
Did engineering look at this situation Scott?

Yes, it was looked at.
That is why my previous post mentioned

If the doubler is installed without welding (as done in the case of no cracks found) and is installed as prescribed, with some compression pre-load on the elastomers even when the nose gear leg is hanging free, and it is maintained in this state;

Yes, it will take some effort on owners part to occasionally check for loss of preload in the nose gear elastomers. It has always been a design intent that there not be play in this location. It is in fact possible that some level of play can have contributed to damage in some cases.
N410RV went almost 2000 hrs using the originally installed elastomers, but it did require some periodic adjustment by adding an additional spacer washer.
The need for that periodic check should probably have been better conveyed to those with flying RV-10's. As a result of the continued airworthiness program for the RV-12, I think we are beginning to do a better job with that type of thing.
 
Ours is welded in about now??.new bits going in this afternoon :)

Hopefully flying tomorrow!

I will post pictures later.
 
I like Vic told Van's that it needs some way to stop the plate from vibrating around and destroying the engine mount tube and they agreed, but didn't really suggest anything.

Actually Van's didn't agree, which is why the NOTIFICATION was issued without that recommendation.

Since you used some RTV (or proseal? you mention both...), report back at your next inspection and let me know if it is still holding the plate in place or not.
 
All went together really well. The aviation welder did a beautiful job. Fixed a cracked step too!

I forgot pics today but I will be zip tie crazy in the morning tethering all the wires, and I will take some then.

Only problem has been the extra nose height gained from new rubbers, new nose wheel tyre (higher quality one is bigger in diameter) and the extra thickness has dropped outr? tail down. The Comanche now will not pass its stabilator under our tail. :(

Ohh well??time to fix that problem. But it is a good problem to have.

Total man hours to date;
Strip down and have ready for welding 10 hrs.
Welding repairs 4-5 hrs approx.
Reassemble 9 hrs.
Tidy up and re cowl and paper work estimate 3-4 hrs.

All up about 27-28 hours I guess.

The fix with the spacer ring looks really solid. I assume that the doubler insertion actually achieves the same result. :)
 
Nose sits higher

Yes, I noticed that the nose sits a little more proud now. I measured it at about a 1" gain. Mine has both the new plate and the doubler. I noticed it as well when I was cleaning the vertical fin, as I could reach up quite a bit higher. :)

And it sounds much more solid when taxiing now, too.

Scott, I did religiously make certain the elastomers were tight. I had 4 of the washers in mine. I see now that the service bulletin recommends replacement when 3 are needed.

Vic
 
Yes, I noticed that the nose sits a little more proud now. I measured it at about a 1" gain. Mine has both the new plate and the doubler. I noticed it as well when I was cleaning the vertical fin, as I could reach up quite a bit higher. :)

And it sounds much more solid when taxiing now, too.

Scott, I did religiously make certain the elastomers were tight. I had 4 of the washers in mine. I see now that the service bulletin recommends replacement when 3 are needed.

Vic

I think the recommendation is to replace if you need MORE than 3.
 
I did my SB work this weekend too. I ended up using a thin layer of RTV but did it over the entire surface, and then jacked the back end up so squeeze everything out that I could. In the end, there is really almost zero gap between the 2 plates, and there shouldn't easily be any moisture that gets in there.

I believe the SB should prevent much worry about that particular part breaking, but I do have one area of concern that will linger.

The shaft that the elastomers ride on, directly contacts the hole in the engine mount. The doubler is slightly larger, so there won't be an issue with that.
But, when you look at the shaft, right at the top of the topmost elastomer, one side of my shaft was chafing on the hole of the engine mount. This led to a slight thinning of the shaft in one area. One other thing I noticed is that the shaft had a bit of rust inside.

I believe that: 1) people should prime (NOT liquid plumber, but liquid PRIMER) the inside of that shaft before initial assembly.

2) That shaft won't last forever. At 1070 hours, it's showing wear. I'm sure it'll go 2000 hours. But, since this thing was designed with no replaceable wear surfaces, it won't last forever. I would love to see a sleeve over that part of the shaft, that can be replaced, but doing so would require that the elastomers were made with a larger hole, and the tophat shaped retainer would have to be wider too. So this isn't likely to be an easy thing to fix. So, I think people are going to have to pull that shaft and inspect it (I'd recommend maybe a 500hour inspection at least) and replace as necessary. On Van's end, I'd hope that they keep a dozen of these in stock, because it's going to be considered a wear part on higher time RV-10's. I don't know what that part costs, but it would be nice if there was some sort of bushing there to protect it...either on the hole side, or the shaft side, that could be replaced.
Tim
 
Did another SB today. Probably took about 1.5 hours because cowl was already partially off. Very easy project. If anybody wants help, hop over to X35 and we'll help, powder coat and all.
 
All done and back flying. Picture as promised!
photo_zpsfb2564f3.jpg


And yes?..the welded edge did get primed and painted after I took that photo. Clearly not easy to get the paint on from the angle we painted at.

All up probably a bit over 30 man hours. And all my EGT/CHT connections are flaky :( so I have to decowl and squeeze the spade sockets for a tighter fit. But otherwise no leaks and flying/taxiing well.

One thing I noticed with the new rubbers and thicker plate is the nose is higher and tail lower. By a fair amount too!
 
I did my SB work this weekend too. I ended up using a thin layer of RTV but did it over the entire surface, and then jacked the back end up so squeeze everything out that I could. In the end, there is really almost zero gap between the 2 plates, and there shouldn't easily be any moisture that gets in there.

I believe the SB should prevent much worry about that particular part breaking, but I do have one area of concern that will linger.

The shaft that the elastomers ride on, directly contacts the hole in the engine mount. The doubler is slightly larger, so there won't be an issue with that.
But, when you look at the shaft, right at the top of the topmost elastomer, one side of my shaft was chafing on the hole of the engine mount. This led to a slight thinning of the shaft in one area. One other thing I noticed is that the shaft had a bit of rust inside.

I believe that: 1) people should prime (NOT liquid plumber, but liquid PRIMER) the inside of that shaft before initial assembly.

2) That shaft won't last forever. At 1070 hours, it's showing wear. I'm sure it'll go 2000 hours. But, since this thing was designed with no replaceable wear surfaces, it won't last forever. I would love to see a sleeve over that part of the shaft, that can be replaced, but doing so would require that the elastomers were made with a larger hole, and the tophat shaped retainer would have to be wider too. So this isn't likely to be an easy thing to fix. So, I think people are going to have to pull that shaft and inspect it (I'd recommend maybe a 500hour inspection at least) and replace as necessary. On Van's end, I'd hope that they keep a dozen of these in stock, because it's going to be considered a wear part on higher time RV-10's. I don't know what that part costs, but it would be nice if there was some sort of bushing there to protect it...either on the hole side, or the shaft side, that could be replaced.
Tim

Tim, we had wear, and we bought a new shaft. $145 plus the freight (the expensive bit for us).

Vic, did you feel the doubler and the reinforced ring design was going to be better? What did Vans say about that?
 
Yes.

Yes, I think the new ring brace will be fine. I had to put the doubler on mine as the hole in the initial plate was too large. The doublers that they are sending out for those who don't have cracks have a larger diameter hole as they don't need to have the close tolerance. Unfortunately, I had already welded it in before it was recognized as the wrong part.

Vic
 
SB Completed

Started my nose gear SB last week and could not get the WD-1015 collar assembly off. Tried hard for a couple of days, but it would not budge. Called Jesse Saint over in Dunnellon at X35 and arranged to take the airplane to him this morning. Jesse and his team finally managed to get the collar off. A bit of corrosion on the top of the link assembly was the reason I could not get it off, as we suspected. Anyway, no cracks.
icon_biggrin.gif
The whole job took just a bit over two hours, which included removing and reinstalling the cowling. Jesse and his team at Saint Aviation are excellent and I would recommend them to anyone needing some professional help with RV-10 maintenance.

750 hours in 5 1/2 years
operated on hard surface most of the time. Most of the grass strips I have landed on have been pretty smooth. The only exception to that is some transition training I did for a couple of pilots that requested grass field work. I used Pierson, FL, 2j8, and Bob Lee Strip, 1j6, near Deland, FL and they were both pretty rough. I have not used them again.
I have used the airplane for Transition Training for the past three years, so had some concerns because of the high number of landings. (I have not kept track of the number of landings on the airplane) Happy to report that the nose gear was in great shape.
Jesse and I talked about the use of RTV on the doubler, and he, of course, said it was up to me whether to use it or not. He has used it on the other airplanes he has done. I elected to use it.

If you are in central FL, stop at X35 and visit Jesse. His operation is impressive. Some of the cheapest 100LL in the area, as well.
 
SB Done Yesterday

Inspected my -10 last Friday and found no cracks. Got the part frm Vans Tuesday and went to the airport after work on Wed to verify the fit and paint it. Did some minor cleaning up with a dremmel tool and have a good fit.

Installed it after work last night in about an hour including putting the cowl on etc. Needed only one spacer to preload it so the elastomers have not compressed much. Shaft looks good too with no noticable wear.

Total of 500 hours with 99% on paved surfaces. Kit number 40142, built in 2005 (think it was the 13th RV-10 flying). I had replaced the nose gear bushings at around 350 hours but verified they were all ok while I had it apart.

As others have said, easy fairly quick job if you have no cracks. Hardest part was getting the collar off.:)

TJ
 
SB done

SB completed. 480 hours based at grass field. No cracks. SB pretty simple if you have no cracks.
 
Yes, it will take some effort on owners part to occasionally check for loss of preload in the nose gear elastomers. It has always been a design intent that there not be play in this location. It is in fact possible that some level of play can have contributed to damage in some cases.
N410RV went almost 2000 hrs using the originally installed elastomers, but it did require some periodic adjustment by adding an additional spacer washer.
The need for that periodic check should probably have been better conveyed to those with flying RV-10's. As a result of the continued airworthiness program for the RV-12, I think we are beginning to do a better job with that type of thing.
I have cracks and am currently applying the fix. I'm based on a grass field that is considered a bit rough but Bo's, a Commanche, a Travel Air(sp), and up until recently, a flight school operated off of it without obvious problems. I can count about 175 TO and Landings on my '10 since new.

When I went to inspect my nose gear mount I noted that I did have play in the assembly and that I hadn't checked this in previous condition inspections even though I had removed the wheel each time. I just didn't have it in my checklist.

Yes, I think it's important.
 
Serial #65 540 Hours no cracks, less than 5 landings on grass.
No wear on any pivot points.

Installed one pre load spacer at initial assemble and one additional at about 100 hours.

Dick Sipp
RV-4 sold, RV-10, RV-12
 
I have cracks and am currently applying the fix. I'm based on a grass field that is considered a bit rough but Bo's, a Commanche, a Travel Air(sp), and up until recently, a flight school operated off of it without obvious problems. I can count about 175 TO and Landings on my '10 since new.

When I went to inspect my nose gear mount I noted that I did have play in the assembly and that I hadn't checked this in previous condition inspections even though I had removed the wheel each time. I just didn't have it in my checklist.

Yes, I think it's important.

WOW!

I have not checked the landings, but can, but 175 landings is not many. I wonder how long ours had been cracked for? I suspect a long time.
 
I'm thinking about riveting the doubler to the top most elastomer to keep it centered and to make for easy inspections. I also believe the correct pre-load is very important to keep all the stack up parts free from slack. What ya think?
 
Yes.

Yes, it is important to keep everything tight, otherwise it will hammer away at everything.

Vic
 
I felt the doubler needed to be fastened in some way. I really think it will move around and beat up the welds at least. I used Hysol when I put it back together. Just a thin coat on the plate and it oozed out nicely all around.
 
I had another drink, and decided that it would probably be better to put a couple roll pins in the doubler and two locating holes in the plate to keep the doubler centered; hopefully the per-load will keep everything tight.
 
WOW!

I have not checked the landings, but can, but 175 landings is not many. I wonder how long ours had been cracked for? I suspect a long time.
That was 175 landings and 175 takeoffs on the rough grass field. An equal number or more on hard surface. In my experience on my field, the nosewheel takes a bit of a beating on takeoffs as well as landings. No matter how agressively I get or keep the nosewheel up, it gets hit by irregularities in the runway surface

Though mine was cracked, it looks like it takes awhile. First the plate slowly deforms, then hairline cracks form (I had 2 hairline) and then the cracks slowly open up. Of course I didn't see this actually happen but that's what it looks like.

Looking at pics of a very badly cracked plate, my guess is that the damage will progress until the plate starts to break into pieces.

Again, I think the critical issue is the presence of play between the plate and the elastomers. I set it up once and never checked it again in 3 years. At year 2, I discovered a cracked nose wheel. I can say with certainty that my plane has never landed nose wheel first or otherwise experienced any trauma to the landing gear beyond operations on my home strip.
 
Just a wrap up email on what it takes to comply with this service bulletin if you have cracking. And you live in Australia??:eek:

Parts replaced, new rubbers bolts etc $650 - 700approx
Certified welder, to inspect clean and repair $1100
Remove and install engine mount approx 30 man hours say $3300

The reason I post this is far too many people think EAB aviation is meant to be cheap. It is not, and you need to factor in your time. your time is never free. Even if you are retired. It has a value. For me I took days away from my business so I have costed this as my net after tax out of my pocket and not my business charge out rate.

Total cost AUD$5100 or about $4500 in USD.

Most likely still cheaper than a Cirrus or Beechcraft, but its not a poor mans sport!
 
Just a wrap up email on what it takes to comply with this service bulletin if you have cracking. And you live in Australia??:eek:

Parts replaced, new rubbers bolts etc $650 - 700approx
Certified welder, to inspect clean and repair $1100
Remove and install engine mount approx 30 man hours say $3300

The reason I post this is far too many people think EAB aviation is meant to be cheap. It is not, and you need to factor in your time. your time is never free. Even if you are retired. It has a value. For me I took days away from my business so I have costed this as my net after tax out of my pocket and not my business charge out rate.

Total cost AUD$5100 or about $4500 in USD.

Most likely still cheaper than a Cirrus or Beechcraft, but its not a poor mans sport!

David,
I realize the elastomers are expensive, plus the additional parts you required, and how you choose to factor the value of your personal time is your business....
But $1100 for inspecting cleaning and repairing the mount? What is the certified welder certified to do... brain surgery? :rolleyes:
If that is the norm over there, maybe I need to to make a change of profession and come on over ( I have always wanted to travel there anyway).
A weld repair was done on the engine mount of N410RV to test the installation. I would estimate that all prep work, welding, and paint touch-up was done in about 4 hours. The welding is actually the quickest part... easily under an hour.
I could really go for a job that allowed me to bill $250+ per hour....
 
Ahhh Scott, pardon me for poking fun at you, but you are not truly accounting for the job, and this is why people go broke thinking they are charging enough?.but are not.

To answer your question properly, it is true, the land of Oz is one of the most expensive places to do anything. But when you have the certified welder and all the CASA imposed overheads, the insurance overheads, the cost of compliance overheads (CASA and all manner of government overheads - yes we lead the world here :mad: ) it starts adding up.

So I call the guy at Archerfield (1 hrs drive) to come and inspect and make a plan. He also had to knock up the parts from your drawings and then come back a few days later. So that is 4 hours on site as you say (he was 3.5) but account for the two trips, the prep work, the travel plus the setup his gear on site and decamp to leave.

That is about 3 hours plus 6 hours x 110 is about $990 and some materials and parts production, ohh and don't forget the GST (tax) at 10%.

By the way our mogas is USD$5.40 a gallon not $3.10, our restaurants are twice the price and so is real estate??

Come on down! :D

I hope you are not offended by my post as that is not the point. Too many folk expect everything for nothing, and they even expect that of Vans no doubt. Maybe it is a mindset thing but my point is even in ABE?.it is not as free as you might think.

Hope that helps the understanding a bit.
 
I thiink Dave offers a clear dose of reality to the actual cost of repairs sometimes.

For example when a certain Van's employee made a public statement that the SB mod on the horizontal cracking was no big deal and could be done in a few hours I about blew a gasket! (when I challenged Van's about this they said "a few" is relative number and doesn't really have an exact meaning!) Yea right! My response, I'll gladly bring my aircraft to you for repair if you can do it in a few hours... there were no takers.

I know we have some folks around here that think anything can be done in few minutes (my old boss felt the same way), but in reality, these repair jobs can take much more time than you expect, more offen than not things do not go quite as planned.
 
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