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RV-6 vs Beech Baron in ramp fight.

pierre smith

Well Known Member
We landed in Beaufort, S.C. a while back and saw this Baron on the losing end of a runaway -6!

Baron.jpg


The FBO told me that the lady pilot (student?) was in the process of moving the -6 to a tiedown before arriving thunderstorms. It was parked two spaces to the right of the Baron and went to full throttle at startup, making most of a left 180 before chopping the Baron up. Amazing what a WOT 160 Lyc can do! Notice the exposed rocker shafts and prop missing big chunks!

Never stand in front of an airplane during its startup!

Best,
 
Never stand in front of an airplane during its startup!

Best,

I'll add to this; Never stand forward of the plane of the prop during start-up. If an airplane loses the prop or parts of the prop, the pieces will typically travel forward and outward.
 
I would also advise the RV6 driver not to stand too close to the owner of the Baron after this incident. :rolleyes:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
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Moved to Safety.

Not only dont stand in front of the prop, but to the side of the prop arc is not a good place either.
 
Never walk through or stand in a prop arc

Never turn a prop

Never walk forward of the wing line of a turning prop without a wingspan standoff

What I always taught my students for prepping them to deal wit passengers, and how I operated as a lineman in high school.
 
What's the lesson?

...or we are doomed to see this again, and again.
Kind of explains why insurance is in the thousands ....annually. ( mine is $200 an hour this year!)

so.....did the PIC reach in and push the throttle full forward, thinking it was the mixture? ( perhaps to clear a flooded engine?)
Is it part of your pre-start, to stand on the brakes, and ensure they feel solid? Is there a better test? ( short of wheel chocks, which are tough to remove after start!)

last point, the baron owner will likely tell a few dozen people that 'those dam home-made airplane idiots don't know what they're doing!'
Just a reminder that we need to educate, reinforce, self-police, when we see something potentially hazardous on the field, that could turn into a ugly, expensive and life-threatening situation like this!!!
 
I've noticed a number of pilots leave the throttle wide open - full in - at shut down. I assume that this is to make engress / egress easier and maybe avoid stepping on the throttle sticking several inces out of the panel near where your feet go in???

But if you forget and push the mixture and turn the key - WATCH OUT!!!
 
To add to the "don't do this thread..."

Don't leave any part of one airplane within the prop arc of another airplane.

I know a pilot who parks his two airplanes (a Swift and a Navion) in a community hangar and he doesn't leave any part of any other plane within the prop arc of either of his planes. And vice versa, his prop arc does not intersect with any part of any other plane.

He also always chocks his planes.

He is also close to 85 years old and has been flying over 60 years.

He also can tell a lot of aviation stories. :) Some of them I can't repeat here. :D
 
...or we are doomed to see this again, and again.
Kind of explains why insurance is in the thousands ....annually. ( mine is $200 an hour this year!)

so.....did the PIC reach in and push the throttle full forward, thinking it was the mixture? ( perhaps to clear a flooded engine?)
Is it part of your pre-start, to stand on the brakes, and ensure they feel solid? Is there a better test? ( short of wheel chocks, which are tough to remove after start!)

last point, the baron owner will likely tell a few dozen people that 'those dam home-made airplane idiots don't know what they're doing!'
Just a reminder that we need to educate, reinforce, self-police, when we see something potentially hazardous on the field, that could turn into a ugly, expensive and life-threatening situation like this!!!

Sometimes you just can't fix stupid. Regardless of the type.
 
Could be a Brake Job

The right brake often wears down before the left due to right brake application with right rudder on the takeoff roll. I have to warn you if you have never experienced it, a six started into a left turn from a standing position when you have no right brake is not stoppable until the rolling friction overcomes the momentum. Yes, it happened to me! Fortunately there was no airplane on my left when it happened.

Bob Axsom
 
Hurry up, dang it!

"The FBO told me that the lady pilot (student?) was in the process of moving the -6 to a tiedown before arriving thunderstorms."

Well, I have learned that particular expensive lesson: Hurry = disaster. Disaster = lotsa bucks going out of your wallet. Calm down - another 5-10 seconds is not gonna make any difference.

Also, I was at a fly-in breakfast where a -6 driver did ALMOST the same thing, except into a crowd. My guess is he bumped the throttle with his knee (yep - a few -6 hours here. Bennair, Seenatt) when he hopped in. My second guess is that he will not do that again, or he will check the dang throttle setting before he pushes any other buttons/turns the key.

Can we learn from this particular mistake? I hope so...what would that lesson be?:confused: Bueller?? Anyone??

Carry on
Mark
 
Back to basics, Mark.

From day one, (1967), I was taught that my right hand is on the throttle and my feet on the brakes, throttle cracked about 1/4" in the Cessna 150.

Still do it today, 18,000 hours later, in both my Air Tractor and RV-10.

Best,
 
The FBO told me that the lady pilot (student?) was in the process of moving the -6 to a tiedown before arriving thunderstorms.

I don't think that fact is relevant to the incident at hand.

Thanks, Bob K.

Thank you, Bob!!!

Roberta:):):):):)
 
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Original post: "The FBO told me that the lady pilot (student?) was in the process of moving the -6 to a tiedown before arriving thunderstorms."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall
I don't think that fact ("lady pilot") is relevant to the incident at hand.

Thanks, Bob K.

Thank you, Bob!!!

Roberta:):):):):)

First, I know that the original poster meant no disrespect in his comment and that he is very supportive of women pilots. It was how he heard the story and he related it that way.

Here's my mental test when I prepare to write something like this post: Would I say, "The FBO told me that the African-American pilot...." or, "...the Hispanic pilot..." If I think that sort of mention is inappropriate or irrelevant to the point of the story, I drop the reference to a female and leave it at "....a pilot (student?)..." Just some food for thought.
 
Yep.

Apologies Ladies....no offense meant at all. It was exactly the way the story was told to me, but I should have omitted that part.

Hey, I support "Saving the tata's and wear pink!" Also enjoy married life so much, that I've done it three times:D



Best,
 
Those darn thunderstorms - cause all kinds of trouble.

A while back a friend was starting a Luscome with it tied to his nice shiny pick up. The aircraft started, the throttle was open too much, it lurched forward, broke the rope and when he grabbed the strut trying to get to the door which had brown shut, the airplane did a 180 and crashed into the pick up.

Not a good day and there wasn't a thunderstorm anywhere near.

This happened to a "he" not a "she". :)
 
message

lots of soft tyranny going on here tell it like it is when we fly we are experincing reality
 
What bugs me ...

Regardless of the pilot, no one seems to pick up on the observation that especially on the A models, this is an uncontrollable failure mode when a left turn is started out of a parking spot when the right brake has failed! When enought power is applied to overcome inertia and left rudder and brake are applied to initiate the turn in a normal operation and movement starts there is no way to stop it until it runs out of kinetic energy. It does not have to be an unconcious pilot action with full power, etc.

I wrote this up before years ago. When it happened to me. I was in Panama City Beach for a few days. I saw the wet area on the ramp beneath the right gear. I had many times flown home with one brake in my old Archer by finesing the single brake, momentum and rudder. There was a fence directly in front of where I was parked so I had to start the turn immediately after starting forward. I did a fast 180 to the left and there was nothing I could do but cut the power to to bring it to a halt and ther was NO DIRECTIONAL CONTROL! I said to myself then that I was glad no one was parked there.

I feel sorry for both pilots.

Bob Axsom
 
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I'm with Bob

May not be easy, or always even possible, but I'm changing my std proceedure to manually pull the plane far enough from any object that I can tolerate a 360 in either direction without hitting anything or anyone...:eek:
 
lots of soft tyranny going on here tell it like it is when we fly we are experincing reality

yours is not the popular message! lol I wonder if a drivers ed teacher could tell some statistics since he (they, whoever!) would see a greater variety of the population on weather some people are more mechanically apt or not.
 
Nope

That'll be fun to try to fix at a small airport! :rolleyes: No mention of how the RV fared?

The -6 was gone when we arrived but the FBO guy said the -6's prop was kinda pretzeld! The spinner made a dent on the Baron's top cowl, so that was probably toast as well. There's some yellow on the Baron, the color of the -6.

Best,
 
...no one seems to pick up on the observation that especially on the A models, this is an uncontrollable failure mode when a left turn is started out of a parking spot when the right brake has failed!

No word if the brake failed in this case, but the airplane traveled from two spaces away...

...Even at full throttle, that's a relatively long time to just sit there and watch your day go down the can.
 
I don't know where I got the habit, but I do a quick brake test before landing. I lost a brake before landing at Payson, AZ one day but noticed the spongy feel of the pedal and stayed off the brakes on the landing roll. I hate to think what would have happened if I had tried to brake at speed. My point is, never trust the brakes.

I, like others if what I glean from the Internet is true, have had to learn the hard way to stay off the brakes and reduce throttle during taxi. I've seen an RV-4 melt the plastic lines off the fittings on a long taxi. But the pilot managed the long taxi back with no brakes and gentle application of power. And my point there is, stay off the throttle while on the ground - with the obvious exceptions of run-up and take-off - and the former should be done cautiously after a brake check. I've seen people (heck, I've done it) get so engrossed in the mag check or prop cycling that they let the plane creep.

Last point: if the plane is moving and you want it to stop, the first thing is to reduce throttle. Braking first and finding the brakes failed leaves you still moving; throttle first at least has you slowing a bit. The split-second advantage might save you or your plane - or someone else.
 
I don't know where I got the habit, but I do a quick brake test before landing. I lost a brake before landing at Payson, AZ one day but noticed the spongy feel of the pedal and stayed off the brakes on the landing roll. I hate to think what would have happened if I had tried to brake at speed. My point is, never trust the brakes.

.....

...and any trace of brake fluid under the wheels should be an instant "no-go" until fully investigated.
 
At full throttle ... fully functional brakes would likely not hold the aircraft in place...:eek:

But it would sure slow it down!

...But even if the brakes were not applied in any way shape or form and the throttle was indeed wide open, the airplane moved at least 100 feet (2 spaces away) before hitting the Barron.

Idunno... seems like there is plenty of time to simply close the throttle.

Student pilot + panic = inability to react?
 
flion, Mike Seager taught me to check the brakes on downwind. I asked why, and he explained that he learned it while flying in an Air Force flying club. Nobody ever taught me that before...now it's part of my checklist.
 
I don't know if this was a FI engine. If it was it sounds like since she was moving it after landing that it might have been a hot start. The normal procedure is throttle wide open for a hot start on a FI engine. It was one of the things I had a hard time getting used to in my transition to flying a piston engine aircraft. I still compromise and only use about half throttle as my aircraft seems to start fine in that setting. I can very easily see a new pilot getting confused on the start trying to get the mixture to rich and then the throttle back to idle.

George
 
WHAT??!!

"The normal procedure is throttle wide open for a hot start on a FI engine."

Where the h$ll did you hear this? ABSOLUTELY wrong, and very dangerous, in so many different ways. The pics of the Baron could be evidence of such thinking....and the ensuing damage...

I will agree to a throttle setting of slightly more than idle, but nothing more than that. If you can't get your injected Lyc lit off with that setting, even if it's a hot start, get back to school.

Mark
 
The normal procedure is throttle wide open for a hot start on a FI engine. It was one of the things I had a hard time getting used to in my transition to flying a piston engine aircraft.

Yep, like Mark said above, that ain't right; go find the instructor that taught you that and slap him in the head. Just crack the throttle, perhaps open it a bit slowly as you crank and it'll start. Even a half open throttle during start is too much.

With ideas like this floating around it's no wonder that so many times when I see someone start an injected engine on the ramp it immediately screams to life and sits there "idling" at 1800 rpm and the dummy in the seat doesn't think to pull it back to a normal idle. Drives me nuts.
 
That method of hot starting a fuel injected Lyc comes from many threads on here and from the POH for my aircraft. As I mentioned I don't personally start it with the throttle wide open since it starts fine hot with partial throttle. In fact my aircraft with the ECI injection system hot starts normally just fine with the same technique as a cold start. I internet search showed many recommending the full throttle hot start technique. Again as I mentioned I don't like it and don't do it but the information and technique is out there.

George
 
I start a hot injected Lyc by advancing the throttle to full as it is cranked with mixture in cutoff. Sure, it lights off with the throttle blades wide open, but that does not mean high RPM. It lights off and dies instantly, just enough time to bring the mixture back in and pull the throttle back. I doubt if I ever even see 1300 RPM. Perhaps I am unusually skilled, but I do this on every single hot start (hundreds, perhaps thousands of times) and it causes no more drama on the ramp than any normal cold start.
 
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My IO360 hot start technique is throttle full open, mixture cutoff, crank till the first cylinder hits, then (quickly) mixture rich and THEN throttle back, I usually catch it at about 800 rpm and only rarely exceed 1000rpm. A hot start on an injected engine is indeed a "flooded" start since the fuel divider is heat soaked and will boil, pushing all the fuel in the divider and lines through the injectors and into the manifold.

The engine will not catch and run smoothly on a hot start - there is about 1 full second at minimum to almost 2 seconds maximum where it's loping around trying to clear it's throat before the manifold is clean and all cylinders are hitting - more than enough time to push the mixture and pull the throttle before the RPM comes up.
 
Wow

Starting an engine with the throttle wide open sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

Personally, I've never even heard of it, but hey, I've only been flying these silly things for..43 years.

Go figure. My hot injected 360 starts just fine with just a cracked throttle and cutoff mixture.

Won't argue with other folks' manuals, but just saying..
 
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/presolo/skills/hotengine.html

Here's the recommended procedure for the Aerospatiale Trinidad TC, with a Lycoming TIO-540 ? throttle, full; boost pump, on; mixture, move from idle cutoff to full rich for one second, then back to idle cutoff; boost pump, off; engage starter. (Could you just as easily push the mixture to full rich, toggle the boost pump, and then retard the mixture? Sure. You're accomplishing the same thing.) In theory, the engine will catch within a few revolutions and you can push the mixture to full rich and retard the throttle to idle.

Why does this installation require a different technique from that of the Continental system? Due to poor low-speed metering, the Bendix setup calls for the priming to provide the majority of the fuel needed in those first few tentative combustion events. As you continue to crank with the throttle wide open, the mixture becomes progressively leaner ? there being less and less fuel remaining in the induction system ? eventually reaching the right ratio for combustion. Can you use the Continental technique on a Lycoming? Of course; and according to some pilots, it works better in some installations. The point is this: If the handbook technique fails to work adequately and you've ruled out any mechanical problems, try the other method.
Of course, what do I know? I've only been flying these things 33 years.
 
Must be a slow news day...

Are we seriously questioning the manner in which each of us starts our engines? Seriously?

...You know, I've heard that people who step up on the wing with the left foot first slip and fall more often than the right foot first people.

...those silly left footers... :rolleyes:
 
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No, just sayin'. Whatever works for your engine is what works. I've had to put miles & miles on tugs going to retrieve/jumpstart planes that failed to hot start. Seen a lot of high-time pro pilots crank em into the dirt. Twin guys sometimes get lucky and have one or the other light. Then they can flush and fire the other one. Pretty embarassing with a load of pay passengers.
If you have a method that works consistently, use it. But, do a little homework before you climb that soapbox.
 
No, just sayin'. Whatever works for your engine is what works. ...If you have a method that works consistently, use it. But, do a little homework before you climb that soapbox...

Absolutely!

It just strikes me as odd that someone can label an obviously successful technique as ?wrong?. I don?t care if your engine start technique includes wearing a rubber chicken on your head and reciting the alphabet backwards, if you can start the thing every time, its ?right?!

I have been flying injected Lycomings almost exclusively for years and I can count on one hand the times I couldn't accomplish a hot start on the first turn of the key. That contrasts sharply with the number of times I've seen a Bonanza or Mooney driver burning up his starter at the gas pump in a desperate attempt to get the fire lit.

I've tried every possible "trick" to the Bendix hot start and I'm sticking with the one that works every time for me - WOT - even if it is "wrong" in someone's book.
 
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