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Lycoming vs Continental Titan -IO540

steve murray

Well Known Member
Had a great time as Osh last week, one of my goals was to pick and engine supplier. I am a lot smarter on the topic vs a week ago buts still pretty ignorant overall and would greatly appreciate the input of others.

I really want to run Mogas, I plan on stock 8.5 compression, electronic ignition and will be plumbing the fuel system with a return line to accept electronic fuel injection. A Lycoming thru Van's is a viable alternative but would require modifications along with pulling parts and selling (mags, fuel injection system etc.) as they will not customize.

Continental seems very open for building with electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection (supplied by others)

I would appreciate the comments on others of the pros\cons of using a Lycoming IO540 vs. Contiental Titan IO540 as I understand there are some differences in cylinders and some components are offered in Magnesium for weight reduction (accy cover) and intake manifold\sump.

Thanks

Steve
 
I'm certainly no expert, but I suggest you start with the easy stuff:
1. Check weight. I think the TCM is heavier, and the -10 is already a nose-heavy airplane.
2. Check dimensions. I think the TCM hangs down lower, relative to the crankshaft flange, than the Lycoming (due to cam below vs cam above crank). This may bring up issues with nose gear strut clearance.
3. The inductions are different. For sure you will be designing your own cowling inlet, filter, etc. design.
4. Probably a different engine mount (?).

None of this is insurmountable, but does require thought and work.
 
Hey Bob

My understanding from Continental guys is their Titan version is a clone almost the same size same weight same intake, I even asked him about the baffling and they said stock vans should work fine. Maybe a little bit of adjustment around there cylinders which are slightly different shape.

I was quite surprised the continental makes lycoming clone.

Steve
 
I'm certainly no expert, but I suggest you start with the easy stuff:
1. Check weight. I think the TCM is heavier, and the -10 is already a nose-heavy airplane.
2. Check dimensions. I think the TCM hangs down lower, relative to the crankshaft flange, than the Lycoming (due to cam below vs cam above crank). This may bring up issues with nose gear strut clearance.
3. The inductions are different. For sure you will be designing your own cowling inlet, filter, etc. design.
4. Probably a different engine mount (?).

None of this is insurmountable, but does require thought and work.

The Titan O-540 is a clone of the Lycoming O-540. It is a bolt in replacement. None of the factors listed above are at work here...

I've toured the Continental/ECI/Titan factory. I'm not an expert on engine factories, but am a manufacturing guy and an engineer, and it seemed like they had their bases covered.

On the other hand, I've spoken with several prominent shops which build up "kit" engines and rebuild engines for the experimental market. They seem reluctant to use Titan/ECI/Continental parts, but when I ask for specifics as to why, I don't get a lot of information. One interesting question posed to me by one of the well known rebuild shops when I mentioned Titan was something to the effect of "Do they have a counterbalanced 540 crank yet?". That's on my list of questions to ask the next time I talk with the Titan guys and gals.
 
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Hey Bob

<snip>

I was quite surprised the continental makes lycoming clone.

Steve

Continental bought out ECI a year or so ago. ECI made PMA'd parts for both Continental and Lycoming engines, plus a line of Lyclones marketed under the Titan brand. The purchase presumably took one competitor off of the table for Continental parts, and gave Continental a foothold in the Lycoming market.

Here's AVweb's take:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Continental-Buys-ECI-224034-1.html
 
"Do they have a counterbalanced 540 crank yet?". That's on my list of questions to ask the next time I talk with the Titan guys and gals.[/QUOTE]

Kyle, can you comment on the benefits of a counterbalanced 540 crank?

If Continental does not have one on the IO540 is it a choice, patent issue or other? (I am assuming Lycoming has a counterbalance crank?) Sorry if these are basic questions, I am at the beginning of my learning curve...

Steve
 
Kyle, can you comment on the benefits of a counterbalanced 540 crank?

If Continental does not have one on the IO540 is it a choice, patent issue or other? (I am assuming Lycoming has a counterbalance crank?) Sorry if these are basic questions, I am at the beginning of my learning curve...

Steve

I am no expert on crankshafts. My understanding (mostly from looking at the TCDS's on O and IO-540's) is that there are several different crankshaft counterweight configurations and they are tailored to different applications/prop's. In my search for a -540, I've used the TCDS for the IO-540 D4A5 as the gold standard, and have looked for an engine or crank that matches the one on that engine or can be modified to match it.

Here's the TCDS on the parallel valve IO-540's:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/ffae5a2bb5506dcc8625747a00650001/$FILE/1E4.pdf

You can go to the end of the document and determine all of the internal differences between the various models.
 
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The Titan O-540 is a clone of the Lycoming O-540. It is a bolt in replacement.

"Do they have a counterbalanced 540 crank yet?". That's on my list of questions to ask the next time I talk with the Titan guys and gals.

It is a clone, other than the differences familiar to any 4-cyl Titan owner.

Both Lycoming and Titan 540 cranks are equipped with pendulum absorbers. They have nothing to do with balance. I'm just sayin'.

Quite a few Titan (or ECI, or Continental San Antonio..please Mr. Management, make up your mind!) parts are intended to be PMA replacements...same as Lycoming, but cheaper. You see some crazy things at Continental these days. Here's an example. They can sell you the cylinder too:

 
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There were a few differences vs Lycoming that the sales guy mentioned would like to get comments on the pros\cons of each

- magnesium accy cover case (available only if "heavy" accy items are not to be used"... I think he was referring to large backup alternators) and magnesim sump --- are there pros\cons to magnesium beyond weight & cost.... someone mentioned to me magnesium has corrosion issues....not sure if this a an old wive's tale.??


- Different porting on the cylinders (not sure if this was intake or exhaust or both?)

- Different cylinder fin geometry on portion of the cylinder closest to the case to promote more cooling

- Different material on cylinder internal walls?

Not sure what is real and what is salesperson selling?? Would appreciate input from those more knowledgable than me.

Steve
 
- magnesium accy cover case (available only if "heavy" accy items are not to be used"... I think he was referring to large backup alternators) and magnesim sump --- are there pros\cons to magnesium beyond weight & cost.... someone mentioned to me magnesium has corrosion issues....not sure if this a an old wive's tale.??

In this context, an OWT. A million VW's can't be wrong ;)

Different porting on the cylinders (not sure if this was intake or exhaust or both?)

Venturi valve seats. Without a flow bench, nobody knows. For sure, they don't matter much if the seat material doesn't match the port wall, and that can happen.

- Different cylinder fin geometry on portion of the cylinder closest to the case to promote more cooling

Less fin area near the cylinder bases, less cooling, PITA to baffle well as compared to non-tapered fins.

- Different material on cylinder internal walls?

Nickel carbide, vs hardened steel.
 
Another Option

I also took a look at the Titan IO-540 last week. It has the advantage of a new crankcase and crankshaft whereas the rebuilders have to source used, but serviceable ones. That said Lycoming does the same in their rebuilt (a.k.a. remanufactured) engines sold as zero time.

Rebuilders also use flat lifters vs. Lycoming's roller tappets. The merits of rollers are debatable; do a search on VAF Traditional Engines forum.

Titan's IO-540 has the major disadvantage of being newly introduced. I would like to see 500 hrs of actual use in the field before committing.

Lycoming has a custom build program named Thunderbolt. When I talked to them two years ago, EFI and electronic ignition from others, along with flow porting and balancing could be incorporated. Give them a call.
 
Looking for feedback and any additional information. Our 3 primary comparison engines are the Lycoming IO-540, the Thunderbolt version, and the Titan.
1. I believe we will not receive the $1000 discount on the Hartzell prop if we choose Titan, so we have factored that into costs (Reduced Lycoming's $1000).
2. We are planning to use the EFII System32 EFI and E-Ignition.
3. We have also factored in about $2000 for Duplex fuel valve, plumbing return lines, and required electric redundancies for duel E-Ignition.
4. Titan is a partner. Titan confirmed and gave us a price for EFII fully installed, including sensor for flywheel and 3 hour bench run prior to shipping to us.
5. Standard Lycoming we would have 2 new mags and 1 fuel injection system to sell. I do not believe they will removed and credit us anything.
6. Thunderbolt we would have 1 new mag to sell but gives credit for 1 mag and FI.
7. Titan comes as needed nothing to sell.

Lycoming EFII
$57,295
($47,600 (#5)+
$2000 (#3)+
$7695 EFII

Thunderbolt EFII
$58,295
($48,600 (#6)+
$2000 (#3)+
$7695 EFII

Titan EFII
$51,904
($49,904+
$2000 (#3)+
EFII included

I have not accounted for the money we would recoup reselling mags and FI.

As of last month lead time on Lycoming was 4 months, Thunderbolt 6 months, and Titan 1 month.

FROM TITAN:
-Titan is very similar to the YIO 540 D4A5 but lighter and equipped with cylinders with venturi intake seats that impart more power. .
-The warranty starts when you put the engine into service or 1 year after delivery, whichever comes first. It is a 2 year warranty on the engine and 5 year warranty on the NiC3 plated cylinder barrels against wear or corrosion.
-Yes the Efii System is installed including the sensor.
-Yes we run the engine in for 3 hours and make adjustments to the oil pressure and others.
-Yes the motor mounting is configured for the RV 10.
-The only fitment mod is to some cooling baffles. I attached our break in instruction with illustrations. The cylinder barrels are lightened by tapering the cooling fins. This has a double benefit, lightening and directing more cooling air tor the cylinder heads where is does more good.

Titan shows weight of 401lbs. I cannot find specs for the weight of the Lycomings.

I did not get Lycoming's marketing comparison but I think Lycoming has a solid history and would obviously be a good choice. However, the Titlan really looks to be a good value, has a better reputation for large bore engines in some communities, and would simplify our EFII system install significantly.

Fact Check and advice welcome!
thanks
 
I now have 110 hours on my Titan, no regrets.

I am using SDS EM5 (Dueal Electronic ignition and fuel injection.) Titan built and tested my engine with slave mags and Fuel injection and then stripped this off prior to shipment to me so I did not need to sell any excess parts. I also had them install 90 degree oil filter adaptor B&C front alternator.

You do need to ensure the correct spacers are used if you plan to use B&C alternator in open mag position.

Steve
 
I've been considering a lot of options, but haven't talked to Continental about their Titan engine, so thanks for the comparison info!
 
I sent a question to JB with Continental about an option and received this back yesterday: "We have suspended the sale of 540’s for 2021 due to some new initiatives by our upper management. This is to reduce options and target the 4 cylinder 340 and 370 Titan engines."
 
Another option?

Check the real weights on the 550-N vs the 540 - keep in mind the 550-N is 315HP min/325HP max right off the production line, while the 540 is 260HP. I think the final weights are within 7LBS last I looked. Changing the engine mount is not Rocket Science - it's welding. Might be a Cirrus mount would give you the right ideas?

Check things like propeller, cowling etc - my guess would be the FWF from a Cirrus could be adapted without too many changes...

I would think TCM could tell you how the 550 responds to MOGAS - mine runs fine with that in the tanks in cruise.

And the Cirrus engine have an A/C compressor option...just sayin'..
 
I got a slightly different response from JB, "Unfortunately we are not quoting 540’s at this time, for at least the first half of 2021. Management has instructed me to concentrate only on our 4 cylinder engines due to supply chain difficulties and an effort to concentrate on core business."

I've still got some time before I need to get the engine mounted, so I'll give them until summer.

However, I do have about 3 shelves of tagged parts waiting to come together and may end up just building it myself. The detractors for me there is that I still need a camshaft, cylinders and a bunch small hardware (holy cow man, for a simple engine, there sure are a lot of widgets [consider how power gets from the piston thrust to the prop governor turning, and then think Rube Goldberg]). But the biggest detractor is I want to find someone who I can run my engine on a test stand and I haven't been able to find anyone yet who will offer that service.

I'd prefer to not have my first full power run to occur the first time I push the throttle forward to first fly my RV-10 that has been built with blood, sweat and tears and a lot of cash - and that's the main reason for me to consider either a Titan, or Thunderbolt as 2nd and 3rd options.
 
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If you plan on using a cold air induction system, you will likely need to modify the engine mount...

That's a good point, and needed if you're using the Barrett oil sump. However, I have Sky Dynamics CAI. And while they do have their own oil sump to offer, their CAI will also use the factory sump, which I would do, alleviating the mount modification.
 
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