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  #1  
Old 04-30-2021, 02:24 PM
jrock836's Avatar
jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Location: Burleson, Texas
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Default RV12 Turn Backs

All of the talk about vapor lock got me to thinking about "turn backs". I personally haven't practiced turn backs in my RV12, but will certainly make a point of getting it done very soon(at a safe altitude of course).

It just so happens the recent May 2021 of EAA's Sport Aviation magazine had a really thought provoking article about turn backs.. They listed a data point for RV12 performance. If you get a chance to read the article, I highly recommend.

So how many of your guys have practiced turn backs? What's your average amount of lost altitude during a 270 degree turn? What's your turn back altitude and length of your runway? Based on the data in the article, it looks like I would need 450 ft AGL minimum, to manage a turn back to my 2000 FT runway and that's assuming the turn back can be done without losing more than 450 ft. and also assumes that I climbed out at Vx. Considering that I have open pasture land at the departure end of my most commonly used runway, if I were only at 450ft AGL, I would probably just continue straight and land on pasture land, rather than attempting the turn back even though a 450ft AGL turn back might be possible.. I need to practice and think more about it, but something like 600ft AGL might be a more realistic number for me to consider turning back.
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

“If you can walk away from a landing, it’s a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, it’s an outstanding landing.” – Chuck Yeager

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Last edited by jrock836 : 04-30-2021 at 02:31 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-30-2021, 02:28 PM
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Bill Boyd Bill Boyd is offline
 
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Location: Landing field "12VA"
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Considering that I have open pasture land at the departure end of my most commonly used runway, if I were only at 450ft AGL, I would probably just continue straight and land on pasture land, rather than attempting the turn back even though a 450ft AGL turn back might be possible..

You, sir, will live to fly another day
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Hop-Along Aerodrome (12VA)
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  #3  
Old 04-30-2021, 02:36 PM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Boyd View Post
Considering that I have open pasture land at the departure end of my most commonly used runway, if I were only at 450ft AGL, I would probably just continue straight and land on pasture land, rather than attempting the turn back even though a 450ft AGL turn back might be possible..

You, sir, will live to fly another day
I hope so Bill... I hope so...
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

“If you can walk away from a landing, it’s a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, it’s an outstanding landing.” – Chuck Yeager

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  #4  
Old 04-30-2021, 03:07 PM
swjohnsey swjohnsey is offline
 
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Location: Kingsville, TX
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I've practiced turn backs in the RV-4. I can make it pretty easy from 500'. Turning into a crosswind makes it even better. You don't have to make it back to the runway, lots of open space inside the perimeter fence. The runway is also 6,000'. One end is good, open pasture, the other end isn't nothing but 20' Mesquite trees. Even if you end up running into the perimeter fence you are better off.
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  #5  
Old 04-30-2021, 03:25 PM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swjohnsey View Post
I've practiced turn backs in the RV-4. I can make it pretty easy from 500'. Turning into a crosswind makes it even better. You don't have to make it back to the runway, lots of open space inside the perimeter fence. The runway is also 6,000'. One end is good, open pasture, the other end isn't nothing but 20' Mesquite trees. Even if you end up running into the perimeter fence you are better off.
A 6000 ft runway gives you a lot more options, since you normally get to spend the last 2/3's+ of the runway climbing out.. I will hopefully get to move my plane off of its short 2000 ft grass runway one of these days. Patiently sitting on a wait list for a hanger somewhere else!
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

“If you can walk away from a landing, it’s a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, it’s an outstanding landing.” – Chuck Yeager

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  #6  
Old 04-30-2021, 03:45 PM
texdog texdog is offline
 
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Location: Fredericksburg, Tx.
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Thumbs up Turn backs

I practice turn backs at least once a month in my RV6A. I think it’s important to make a thirty degree turn as soon as you are at a safe altitude to do so. It gives you a big advantage on the turn. Don’t forget to count to five slowly before you do anything, takes that long to know something happened.
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  #7  
Old 04-30-2021, 04:37 PM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8JD View Post
Mike Vaccaro ("Vac") has put together some good references on turnbacks in this post:
https://vansairforce.net/community/s...2&postcount=41
Not in an RV-12, but he also put together this video of a low altitude turn back in an RV-4 to demonstrate how useful AoA info can be in that situation:
https://youtu.be/LT6OSNblXpc
Thanks.. Surprised by the number of negative comments in that thread. Had no idea it was such a controversial topic.. I wasn't trying to open another can of worms..
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

“If you can walk away from a landing, it’s a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, it’s an outstanding landing.” – Chuck Yeager

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  #8  
Old 04-30-2021, 05:57 PM
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Piper J3 Piper J3 is offline
 
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I “practiced” this on 4-6-2021. See post #1 on Vapor Lock thread. This was actually the second time I have lost power on take-off (first time was with J-3 Cub about 15 years ago). Both times I had partial power and returned to runway with 180 low altitude turn. This latest “practice” with the RV-12, I actually had to slip with 100% crossed-controls to not overshoot the runway. Lots of instantaneous decision making. In both cases a passenger was onboard which adds significantly to the decision-making process. I can tell you there is an overwhelming desire to return to the runway if it appears you have sufficient height and energy reserve. When the engine stops making power while climbing out at low altitude, its imperative to push the nose over immediately to not loose valuable energy.

Probably more important than practicing 180 power-off turn at altitude is developing a repetitive habit of thinking through “What if the engine quits on this take-off” before pushing in the throttle. Also, talk through the possibilities with passengers. It’s good that everyone is one same page.
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  #9  
Old 04-30-2021, 08:30 PM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Location: Burleson, Texas
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3 View Post
I “practiced” this on 4-6-2021. See post #1 on Vapor Lock thread. This was actually the second time I have lost power on take-off (first time was with J-3 Cub about 15 years ago). Both times I had partial power and returned to runway with 180 low altitude turn. This latest “practice” with the RV-12, I actually had to slip with 100% crossed-controls to not overshoot the runway. Lots of instantaneous decision making. In both cases a passenger was onboard which adds significantly to the decision-making process. I can tell you there is an overwhelming desire to return to the runway if it appears you have sufficient height and energy reserve. When the engine stops making power while climbing out at low altitude, its imperative to push the nose over immediately to not loose valuable energy.

Probably more important than practicing 180 power-off turn at altitude is developing a repetitive habit of thinking through “What if the engine quits on this take-off” before pushing in the throttle. Also, talk through the possibilities with passengers. It’s good that everyone is one same page.
Good comments and I agree 100%..
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

“If you can walk away from a landing, it’s a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, it’s an outstanding landing.” – Chuck Yeager

DONATED
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2021, 10:02 PM
RFSchaller RFSchaller is offline
 
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I don’t practice turn backs. My philosophy is if you haven’t reached pattern altitude pick a spot within45 degrees right or left of runway heading and go for it. Like anything that has to be tempered by the actual conditions.
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