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RV-12 Gross Load with new LSA rules

SkyDreams09

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I realize this may be a loaded question for some and a liability question for Vans. However, I think it's worth asking.

I'm considering an RV-12 and have a sport pilot rating. Before I drop 100-140k for a new or new to me RV-12 what will the value be if the new LSA rules increase to 2000 - 3600? Would the RV-12 design allow for some increase if the new rules take place? Will the values of these 1320 LSA drop significantly?

I know there are some LSA's in the market that are certified elsewhere in the 1500-1600lb range. They are only limited by the 1320lb by FAA restrictions for LSA. I'm curious if anyone knows the actual design specs of the RV.

I would love to hear some thoughts on this topic.
 
I realize this may be a loaded question for some and a liability question for Vans. However, I think it's worth asking.

I'm considering an RV-12 and have a sport pilot rating. Before I drop 100-140k for a new or new to me RV-12 what will the value be if the new LSA rules increase to 2000 - 3600? Would the RV-12 design allow for some increase if the new rules take place? Will the values of these 1320 LSA drop significantly?

I know there are some LSA's in the market that are certified elsewhere in the 1500-1600lb range. They are only limited by the 1320lb by FAA restrictions for LSA. I'm curious if anyone knows the actual design specs of the RV.

I would love to hear some thoughts on this topic.

Following! I’m contemplating building an RV12 myself. I’m interested to know if vans will change the Max gross weight (if the plane can handle it) and specifically what the changes might do to values.
 
First........Only Vans can answer that question. My guess is that the RV-12 was designed to the 1320 lb. specification and there is no margin for an increase.

Second.......I would not hold off on any decision waiting for the FAA to make that change. These changes literally take years to finalize.
 
Even if the rules change those of us flying are stuck with Max gross weight specified when we applied for our airworthiness certificates.
 
Purely speculative thoughts:

Even if the airframe could handle higher gross weight, and Van's made a decision to move in that direction, there are still challenges to effectively adding useful weight:

- engine/prop combo performance at higher weight
- the cost of changing engine / prop to achieve adequate/acceptable performance at the higher weight
- the effect of higher weight, different engine/prop, required changes in fuel capacity on CG limits
- reduced utility (space) with increased fuel capacity. Wing redesign not practical to add fuel capacity.

Bottom line - my guess would be that Van's would go another direction to accommodate significant changes in LSA weight limits, either changing the RV-12 design substantially, clean-sheet design, or modification of existing designs (9/9A, 14/14A?). The possible exception being a very modest (say 1350 lbs) increase in RV-12/12is gross weight if the cost to do so is reasonable AND the airframe design/ safety margins/ CG envelope permit. That small change would dramatically improve the utility of the 12 IMHO.
 
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You are correct, even a small 30-50lb increase changes it for me. Especially with the 4-gallon unusable fuel.

one of my big questions is what will be the resale value of 1320# gross weight aircraft when 2000# plus LSA are available? Is there still a market? It has to have an impact.
 
one of my big questions is what will be the resale value of 1320# gross weight aircraft when 2000# plus LSA are available? Is there still a market? It has to have an impact.
Was there a noticeable decrease in LSA sales or values when Basic Med (BM) became available? I'm sure there were folks flying under Light Sport rules prior to BM that went BM if possible when that option opened up. Sure opened up the choice of airplanes one could fly.

George
 
You are correct, even a small 30-50lb increase changes it for me. Especially with the 4-gallon unusable fuel.

one of my big questions is what will be the resale value of 1320# gross weight aircraft when 2000# plus LSA are available? Is there still a market? It has to have an impact.

On the other hand, if the "street value" of a Legacy RV-12 drops, it would give some of the more financially challenged buyers a chance to get into the game without having to resort to a 40+ year old C-150 with something north of 7K hours and a billion really hard student landings on it. While your mileage may vary, my mission set being local day VFR ice cream/pancake runs or MAYBE the one-time pilgrimage to OSH, such an airplane would suit me fine. I for one would opt in on such a -12 if finances allowed.
 
You are correct, even a small 30-50lb increase changes it for me. Especially with the 4-gallon unusable fuel.

one of my big questions is what will be the resale value of 1320# gross weight aircraft when 2000# plus LSA are available? Is there still a market? It has to have an impact.

Just to clarify, the RV-12 doesn't have 4 gallons of unusable fuel.

I have personally landed with 2.5 gallons remaining. The tank can actual be run nearly dry in flight if a situation occurred that someone accidently ended up using all of the required 30 minute VFR reserve.

The 4 gallon minimum is a limitation on taking off.
It is also recommended that no long term extended steep climb be executed with less than 4 gallons on board.
Shallower cruise climb pitch angles and any other coordinated maneuvers that would be used in normal flight modes are not an issue.
 
Wouldn't the concern for a go-around be equivalent to a take-off? Where I trained for the RV-12 puts a hard-line on leaving 4 gallons plus in the tank to avoid that exact scenario.
 
Wouldn't the concern for a go-around be equivalent to a take-off? Where I trained for the RV-12 puts a hard-line on leaving 4 gallons plus in the tank to avoid that exact scenario.

There is a header chamber (for lack of better description... it acts in the same way a header tank does) in the tank at the fuel pick-up that captures enough fuel at the location of the fuel pick-up to allow an unrestricted climb for a few minutes at a low fuel level. Easily enough to execute a go around and climb back to pattern altitude.
 
Walt,

If you get a new AW certificate you will also get new OL’s which may be much more restrictive than hat you have now. For example, my 12 was licensed in March 2012 and my OL’s permit IFR in IMC if equipped. My understanding is that guys getting ELSA AWs now do not have the option for IFR in IMC.

Rich
 
If you get a new AW certificate you will also get new OL’s which may be much more restrictive than hat you have now. For example, my 12 was licensed in March 2012 and my OL’s permit IFR in IMC if equipped. My understanding is that guys getting ELSA AWs now do not have the option for IFR in IMC./QUOTE]

I speak from personal experience.
I did an "N" number change on my -12, It started 10/20 but because of COVID the gears moved slowly. It finally got moving 2/21 and is was issued FEB/2021.

In reference to what you speak this is directly from my Special Airworthiness Certificate;

19. Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in § 91.205(d) are installed, operational, compliant with the performance
requirements of, and maintained per the applicable regulations. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft
maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning aircraft to service.
(49)

There is nothing different in this AW certificate that wasn't in the original AW that was issued in 2015.
 
Read Rich's post closer, he talks about "My understanding is that guys getting ELSA AWs now do not have the option for IFR in IMC."

Pilot decision making is crucial whether flying an LSA, Cessna 150, Diamond DA40, F-22 Raptor, day, night, VMC, IMC, alone or with a passenger. I would NOT take an RV-12iS into IMC weather but it would be nice to get a clearance for passing through some wispy clouds en route without deviation or to even get through a low non-convective cloud layer to VFR on top. Can we, as pilots, not be trusted to make decisions at this level?
 
Read Rich's post closer, he talks about "My understanding is that guys getting ELSA AWs now do not have the option for IFR in IMC."

I directly addressed that issue.
My date is 2021, as current as you can get, and I am still allowed to fly in IMC "if equipped".

Well, I just got my E-LSA AW just a few months ago. It contained the standard language that the plane can be operated Night VFR or IFR as long as it has met the equipment requirements in Part 91.205(c) and (d), respectively.

Before flying in IMC, I would remove the placard on the panel that says "flight into IMC prohibited" on the instrument panel, and update the POH.

If you're in an S-LSA aircraft, you can't make those changes.

Flying in IMC without also equipping with pitot heat, alternate static, and two separate attitude gyros/sensors is probably not smart though. If you're talking about a whispy or single, well-defined cloud.. then... ?
 
Walt,

Admittedly I have no firsthand experience with AWs after mine was issued, but I thought ELSA guys on the forum were complaining about the inclusion of the Vans POH by reference in their OLs. And doesn’t the POH preclude IFR as well as IMC? Maybe Mel can clarify current practices since he is a DAR.

Rich
 
...I thought ELSA guys on the forum were complaining about the inclusion of the Vans POH by reference in their OLs. And doesn’t the POH preclude IFR as well as IMC?

If that's true or not doesn't make a difference. You can change the POH. That's part of the "E" in E-LSA. Van's has NO authority on an E-LSA POH once the AW has been issued. They have NO authority on ANYTHING once the AW has been issued.
 
Bradley,

Depends on how the OL is written regarding the POH. If a specific document (e.g. Vans POH revision number) is incorporated by reference you lose the ability to change the POH.

Rich
 
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