Prospective RV-10 Builder

Greetings all, I have been lurking here for a while and I'm starting to be serious about either buying, or building with build assist, my ideal RV10.
Im in Calgary but have winter home in AZ, my mission is to possibly do KBOI to KGEU non stop, 620nm.
I have looked at an RV10 with dual tanks, John Nys built, spoke to him and I would be OK with it, made an offer but it wont be accepted I dont think.
The A/C has a less than briliant history, hard landing 54K paid by Insurance, and engine has been rebuilt, 3 times, 190 SMOH.
op my question to you owners and builders is the following;
What would you do diferent if you were building it now, and why, providing that your budget could be allow it.

Air conditioning= Yes/No
Engine, new, rebuilt, builder?
Avionics, G3X Touch & GTN, or ?.
Other, like Interior, Ignition, Lights, ER Tanks (must have)

Thank you in advance to all posters

The only major thing I'd do different would be be to go quick build. I have a full interior, glass panel, and a rebuilt zero-timed engine and I'm 100% satisfied with the choices I made there. There are some nit-noid items and layouts that I'd do different, but nothing that's a show stopper.

My only comment on the ER tanks is make sure that's really a mission requirement. Personally I don't want to spend more than 4 hrs in the air for any given leg with 3-3.5 being optimal -- for me and my family. A 30 min fuel stop and potty break to break up a really long flight is a non-issue with us.

Same comment. A standard -10 with 60 gal tanks can easily fly 620nm with reserves. Just have to throttle back a bit. I routinely do 160 KTAS on 10 gal/hr, so on such a trip I'd land with two hours reserve.

If you decide to build, I would look forward to maintenance and upgrade issues.

Access to hidden stuff is a killer. Front mounted items in the panel that get soldered in are a PITA----indicator lights and such.

There is a well documented modification where an access panel is mounted to the side of the tunnel for servicing the fuel filter------absolute must do IMHO. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=231422&postcount=2

http://airward.com/amelia/search.as...6&ShowImages=&ShowDetails=&menuID=15~15&id=17

Stainless steel heater boxes.

Plane Around wheel pant mount spacer. http://www.planearound.com/TWO-WHEEL-FAIRING-BRACKET-SPACERS-FOR-RV-10-WFSPCR.htm

And their door latch. http://www.planearound.com/NEW-DOOR-180-KIT-NEW180.htm

Battery charge pigtail through the baggage bulkhead.



Make the front seats easier to take out. I nutplated the "T" handle mount so it was easy to take out, and cut off about a half inch of the white plastic slide.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=954985&postcount=1

There are other options to making the seat remove easier---------- http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57756&highlight=rail and http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=80350&highlight=access+tunnel

Some more threads to look at.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=75343&highlight=access+tunnel

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=100706&highlight=access+tunnel

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=74010&highlight=access+tunnel

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=425680&highlight=access+tunnel#post425680

Auburntsts said:

There are some nit-noid items and layouts that I'd do different, but nothing that's a show stopper.

My only comment on the ER tanks is make sure that's really a mission requirement. Personally I don't want to spend more than 4 hrs in the air for any given leg with 3-3.5 being optimal -- for me and my family. A 30 min fuel stop and potty break to break up a really long flight is a non-issue with us.

Click to expand...

Same here, been flying 1 year and 140hr. Mainly nit-noid items. Only major thing I would not do is the Aerosport carbon panel. Not because anything wrong, looks great and was reasonable to install, but the center console does cut into knee room a little, and the fixed position of the cutouts limited my options of rearanging my pannel if I want to go with a larger EFIS. I would do the overhead console again for sure, but with it's added ventalation, would probably rivet and seal the rear side vents.

I had questioned installing the long range tanks, but decided not to initially. I have found that the 60 gal provides plenty of range, more than the bladder. At 7500 and 50 deg LOP I see 163knots and 10.3 gph. That leaves me at 5 hr and 815 nm with VFR reserves. Went to Denver from Atlanta, burned 68 gallons there (w/fuel stop+headwind) 1044 nm, and 54 gal back (bladder stop tailwind)

I agree with Bob and Todd. My bladder doesn't last longer than the capacity of the standard tanks. After three or so hours, my legs can use a stretch too. I don't see much value in extended range tanks.

While AC isn't important here, it very well be in AZ. My son was based there for awhile. He would tell me that even though the F-16 had AC, he was usually soaked by the time he got to that point in the checklist. Although he probably was wearing a few more pounds of gear that we would in an RV. This is going to add weight. This and ER tanks will impact your useful load significantly. My vote would be to go for AC only. Also, be advised that you'll need to special ring gear for AC. Take this into account before your order an engine, otherwise you'll spend another $1,700 on a replacement.

The Avidyne ID-540 is starting to impress quite a few folks. Especially the ability to display holds.

You may want to take a look at some of the AFS panel offerings. AFS is starting to do some integrations with the ID540, that they were unable to with the Garmin products. Rob is offering some pretty good deals for a turnkey panel and electrical system. http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Products/Quick_Panel/Quick_Panel.html Rob is also a fellow RV-10 builder.

Granted, avionics choice is quickly becoming a religious debate. No correct answer and the choice that everyone makes has to be the one and only option.

Interiors are a no brainer in my opinion too. If you want a fantastic interior, with minimal effort, take a look at Aerosport Products

This advice has been given many times but it is true. If you want to fly, buy a plane already done. Only build if you want to build.

It is a lot of work to build, but very fun and educational if you are into that.
There will come a time when you realize you have a lot of money invested into a pile of aluminum. This has scared me many times.

I would strongly suggest (which I did not follow) build to the plans with very little deviation. Any deviation adds 10X the time you think.

Agree with Mike S. Always think about maintenance.

Mike D said:

Any deviation adds 10X the time you think.

Click to expand...

Truer words have never been written!!!! I lived that dream: original Accuracy Avionics overhead console, a through-the-skin mil style (3 prong) ground power point, and hard-points for a Motopod cargo pod.

Don't even get me started on the wiring and avionics.

I'm not flying yet (the -10, anyway, but some of my thinking comes from my experience with my -6A) but here is where I'm at. A/C is a must. Even with the cabin top, it can get hot here in AZ. I've been in a Cherokee here in Flagstaff and wished for air while we were on the ground. Right along with that, I'm installing oxygen; there's mountains around here. I can get most anywhere in AZ at about 9000 feet but visiting my brother in CA requires a dogleg around the ranges or going over Yosemite. Ditto going North. Sure, I could use a portable but the Mountain High EDSIP system is cool tech and easy to install.
For the engine, a builder finally responded and offered a quote that, with the LSE dual ignition I already owned, matched Van's Lycoming price and included the AFP injection and Superior cylinders that I couldn't get from Van's. Painted, too. I won't name the vendor yet but if they recognize themselves in this post, they are free to speak up.
My avionics are VP running a Garmin 900X, which I love but after having seen a G3X installation up close I wish it had been available when I planned my panel build. Oh, well, I need to replace the Blue Mountain in my -6A someday... I am kind of regretting the Gretz pitot - I'm not wild about the composite. But I couldn't find an old Piper pitot for a reasonable price and already had the AOA installed so I didn't need the Dynon. Thinking about that, I really like AOA.
Beyond that, not a lot of bells and whistles; it's already getting heavy. The interior will be an aircraft interior as opposed to some of the luxury car wannabe interiors I've seen in some experimentals. Too heavy and too hard to work around when the plane needs an annual or maintenance. Remote oil filter to make oil changes easier and less messy. Koger sunshades. Lavatory behind the rear seat. Hot and cold running stewardesses. (Ok, just kidding about the last two...)
There's a lot of wiggle room for customization of this aircraft. Van is not wrong when he suggests a minimalist and light build (see elsewhere threads about builders upping the GTOW) so don't worry if your preferences don't match someone else's as long as you think carefully about the tradeoffs and consequences of your choices.

At FFZ here in Mesa AZ there are 5 RV10's on the field in the summer and 6 in the winter. With a little prearrangement you could see a wide variety of options in a short visit. That might be a record for one airport.

I went with A/C. There were times durin the build that I questioned that decision because of the build complexity that it adds, but now that I have it, I use it way more than I thought I would. During our OSH trip we had it on half of the time. Flying across the country, often times humidity control is as desirable as heat removal. Even in moderate temps, the sun on the cabin really heats it up. We still fly middle of the day, middle of the summer when almost nobody does down here. It really extends the usefulness. Conversely we also did seat heaters which are cheap and easy and my wife loves them.

I didn't go with L/R tanks and don't really see the need now. I do FFZ to SLC often with plenty of reserve.

I went with SkyView and Approach Fast Stack and been very happy with both.

The seat removal mods previously mentioned are a must IMO. I went with a piper plug ground power option which was very handy during the build and wiring phase to test power everything from a cheap surplus battery. I never put my ship's battery in until the day of my inspection.
We go to a lot of places that don't have FBO services where I could still get a jump if I needed to. It would take an Avenger to hand crank a 540.

BobTurner said:

Same comment. A standard -10 with 60 gal tanks can easily fly 620nm with reserves. Just have to throttle back a bit. I routinely do 160 KTAS on 10 gal/hr, so on such a trip I'd land with two hours reserve.

Click to expand...

Bob, you left out two important bits of information - at what altitude, and in which direction relative to the wind?

John

Electrical System (12V or 24V)?

So, since all of you guys have your thinking/advice hats on, what electrical system design did you go with? I'm curious, since it seems a few of you have AC...

ppilotmike said:

So, since all of you guys have your thinking/advice hats on, what electrical system design did you go with? I'm curious, since it seems a few of you have AC...

Click to expand...

I think 12v is a no brainer for most EABs. There are a few advantages to 24v. But it is really hard to go all 24v for EABs. You really need to take a look at all your equipment vendors and see what they will support.

johngoodman said:

Bob, you left out two important bits of information - at what altitude, and in which direction relative to the wind?

John

Click to expand...

Last time I looked TAS (True Air Speed) was independent of the wind.

I see pretty much the same 160 KTAS on 10 gal/hr from 9,000' - 13,000'. A little slower down lower.

Bob, what MP and RPM??

LOP or ROP?

Mike S said:

Bob, what MP and RPM??

LOP or ROP?

Click to expand...

At those altitudes it's wide open throttle, always lean of peak. RPM varies from 2250 (9000') to 2400 or 2500 (up high) to keep power around whatever 10 gal/hr LOP is (maybe 55 - 60%).

Ahaaaaaa got it, you are using the blue knob to dial in fuel flow..........

Never thought of that.

RV 10

I didn't realize that Falcon Field had so many RV10's, I will definitely be making some arrangements to look at some on my next trip down, unfortunately it may be a couple months.
Looking forward to getting in touch with some owners via PM or Email, even potentially working with someone for a builder assist plan.
I dont have the time yet and or the skill, the later I can develop, but I dont want to wait 5 years, coincidentally if I had started back in 2012 when I started looking at it I would have it by now.
Last but not least, thank you for all rv'rs that have replied to my enquiry.

BobTurner said:

Last time I looked TAS (True Air Speed) was independent of the wind.

I see pretty much the same 160 KTAS on 10 gal/hr from 9,000' - 13,000'. A little slower down lower.

Click to expand...

I was actually wondering about the 620 nm with 2 hours reserve on 60 gallons. But, 160 KTAS on 10.0 gallons per hour is pretty good - it takes me 11.7 to true out at 160.

John

altitude and range

I've analyzed my cruise data in order to understand the effect of altitude on fuel efficiency and range:



Each data point is a different flight, and represents a 0.5-1.0 hour segment of the flight flown at a constant altitude and power setting. The G3X records parameters once per second; airspeed and fuel flow data shown here are averaged over the entire segment, so there is no cherry picking. Fuel flow for these flights ranged from 8.7 to 10.7 GPH, and TAS ranged from 147 to 167 kts.

You can see that the slope is 0.24 - in other words, you gain a quarter of a MPG for every thousand feet. If you flight plan with a 10 gallon reserve, like I do, then climbing 10,000 feet higher will yield another 125 nm in range. If you can cruise at 10,000 feet or higher, it all works out to about 800nm range with reserves and allocations for taxi and climb.

Headwind/tailwind?

Andy, are you computing your "MPG" by distance made good/fuel burned or by (TAS x Hours)/fuel burned? If you are using ground miles rather than air miles for distance, it seems like head and tail winds are going to skew the data quite bit. Just curious.

-Stormy

Bill, the latter, TAS / GPH, so it is a no-wind model, and you have to take winds into account when applying it.

WTB Quality RV10

Just bumping my tread to the top, I have not bought a 10, walked away from a deal near closing, it was a angled valve narrow deck IO540.

Any builders that are considering selling reach out tome, Ideally a G3X Touch, that's what eventually I would upgrade to.

Thanks