Builder Assist Center Idea - Input Needed

All ?

I?m considering opening a builder assist center with another guy (let?s call him Jon, because that?s his name) and am looking for input. It is actually Jon?s idea, he has a nice building available (not on the airport though) and he has/had several successful businesses not related to aviation. He has never built an airplane, but has a pretty good sense of machinery and fabrication techniques. I have built an RV-8A and I?m currently helping a guy build a Sonex off and on. I?m also an unemployed mechanical engineer.

Jon?s initial idea was to bring in two customers at a time each with a Sonex kit and have me help them build their aircraft in 4-6 weeks. The idea is that the three of us would perform a task on one airplane, then the same task on the other airplane. In other words each guy builds his airplane plus the other guy?s airplane. I believe this would be more efficient than the two of them working separately with me bouncing back and forth, but not sure if the customers would like it or not.

My first thought that in order to finish a complete Sonex in 4-6 weeks with only one ?professional? (me) is to:

1) Have lots of alignment fixtures, drill jigs, templates, etc.
2) Have good tools, maybe including a mill to quickly pound out brackets and such
3) Have a hard work schedule with 50+ hour weeks and goals & milestones throughout
4) Lay out an efficient work plan that groups similar tasks together

Even then, I?m not sure if it is possible or not. I wouldn?t know for sure unless I built a Sonex first, while making all the necessary fixtures & jigs.

Probably my biggest concern is that there are only ~50 Sonex aircraft completed each year and in order for the business to successful, it would need to bring in 16-20 customers per year. Which led me to another idea?the RV-12.

Switching to the RV-12 would provide several advantages:

1) Much larger pool of potential customers ? I?m not sure how many, but I?m guessing the completion rate will be way more than 50/year.
2) The RV-12 goes together much faster and easier than a Sonex, making the 4-6 weeks much more feasible with less fixtures and tooling.
3) The RV-12 can be built as an E-LSA, making it legal for us to build more than 49% of the airplane. Possibly we could even build complete aircraft for customers.
4) Since the RV-12 is designed to be built as E-LSA, the options and variations are very limited, making it easier and more efficient for us to build them.
5) I?m more familiar with Van?s style of construction and enjoy working on RV?s

The only disadvantage that I can think of is that the RV-12 kit is so easy to put together that there may be less builders that will require a builder assist to help them out.

So I?m looking for input on the concept, specifically:

1) Is it feasible to build an RV-12 or Sonex in a ~4-6 week timeframe?
2) Is it feasible that we could get customers from all over the country to come to Racine, WI for 4-6 weeks at a time (or in two week increments)?
3) Would customers be turned off by the fact that they have to build two airplanes?

Of course there is the two week to taxi program, but that involves a very complete Sportsman kit and a team (not sure how many) of professional builders. I know that they offered the RV-7, 8, 9, 10 for a short time, but not sure why they stopped. I would be hesitant to offer to help build RV?s other than the RV-12 because of speed of assembly and the endless combination of options that builders will want with them. Another note ? I very much care about preservation of the 51% rule and have no intention of violating it. Any input is appreciated.

Great idea. But how much can you charge for your time except the use of your tools and space? 4 to 6 weeks per plane means 8-12 weeks for the customer. If your business is tools + space rental, go for it. Otherwise, I don't see hose this business model is going fly.

I looked seriously into do a "Builder Assistance Center" when I retired from TI. After watching both Jay Pratt and George Orndorff for a several years, I decided against it. Builders are not very dependable even by themselves. If you are counting on getting several together at a given time, good luck. When builders build, they want to be on their schedule, not yours.
Another side is personality conflicts. Once you start with a builder, you are stuck with him until completion.
My $.02, and not worth that!

I have seen a number folks try to set up Builder's Assist programs over the years, and you seem to be asking a lot of good and reasonable questions up front - that's important! I personally think this is a very tough business model to make work - and probably tougher given the current economy and the subsequent caution that the population is showing with their disposable, discretionary income/spending.

One thing you might do up front (that I have rarely seen anyone do or suggest) is talk to your local FSDO early in your plans. Yeah, I know...folks might say that's crazy - they are most likely to be negative about the idea and drag their feet - probably even tell you that you can't do it. But since you said that you are very concerned about the 51% rule, and it is their rule, why not work with them up front to get them on your side? The FSDO is clearly not your friend, but you can either play squeaky clean and show them how you are observing the rules, or let them take enforcement action on you (and others) when they think you are just another guy working around the regs. I'd love to see someone stand up and say that they understand the rules, are observing them, and still helping folks complete their RV's!

If what we do can't stand scrutiny, then should we be doing it?

Paul

My personal opinion is that if this were to work, it would work MUCH MUCH better with an RV-12 than a Sonex.

Sonex builders seem to be a bit more "thrifty" than builders of other aircraft. I read on this list where RV-12 builders are not even blinking at the thought of building a $55K+ LSA before paint. I haven't seen many Sonexes with more than $50K worth of parts in them.

Second, well over half of all Sonexes being built are now using the Aerovee 2.1 vw conversion engine. If you include the cheaper Jabiru 2200 and other VW/Corvair engines, these engines have a 2 to 1 advantage over the premium Jabiru 3300. Why is this important? Well, almost all of those folks chose those engines because they couldn't afford/financially justify the Jabiru 3300. If they cannot afford to buy the premium engine, how are they going to afford/be willing to pay for builder's assistance in your 4-6 week program?

The whole theme of Sonexes are that they are a great value for the dollar and very economical. Builder's assistance isn't. IMHO, there are not enough customers willing to pay for such a service to support a build center. Add to that, the people have to spend 4-6 weeks in wisconsin, and you need 2 builders their at the same time.

Plus, you don't have a reputation in the Sonex community, since you haven't built one. Plus, Sonex LTD. controls the 2 major web boards for the aircraft, and I HIGHLY DOUBT that they would let you promote your services on it (but stranger things have happened). Plus, there is at least one person in Wisconsin already offering builders assist for the Sonex (and the Zenith and other planes). My bet is that if you got 2-3 customers for the Sonex builder's assist per year you should be ecstatic.

Now, there seem to be more RV builders willing to pay that premium for builder's assist. Add to that the fact that 51% goes out of the window, since it is an ELSA. I think your market is much better here (and possibly with Rans aircraft) than Sonex.

niches

If you really want to do this, maybe you should consider specializing in some "niche" areas where builders typically encounter a lot of difficulty. Have all the jigs, tools, techniques, etc. to produce subassemblies much better than the builder might otherwise make at home.

Those areas might present a chance to really show the builder the value added so you could charge a profitable amount for your time and resources. Also the total time and money committment for the builder would be much better bounded.

Examples:

canopy frames & canopies (tip-up & slider)

cowling

fuel tanks

RV-10 fiberglass/doors

ericwolf said:

All ?

My first thought that in order to finish a complete Sonex in 4-6 weeks with only one ?professional? (me) is to:

1) Have lots of alignment fixtures, drill jigs, templates, etc.
2) Have good tools, maybe including a mill to quickly pound out brackets and such
3) Have a hard work schedule with 50+ hour weeks and goals & milestones throughout
4) Lay out an efficient work plan that groups similar tasks together

Click to expand...

As a sonex builder and lurker on this board I would like to add a few coments.

Most of the people that purchase a Sonex tend to do so because of the cost. I am not sure how many builders would be willing to add in the extra cost of a build center into their kit. I know for me personally the reason I went with a Sonex over an RV was almost exclusivly based on the price. My Sonex will be done for less than some people building RV's will spend on their engine alone.

Four to six weeks is a long time for somebody to be away from family/work at one time to build an airplane. Most people don't have that much vacation time available in 1 year. You would probably have to consider splitting the weeks into sections if you want to attract more people.

If you are still considering the Sonex as an option I might suggest either setting up 1 week builds for either the tail or the wings. Instead of building the whole aircraft you will probably have a much bigger pool of people willing to go to your builder assist center if you offered packages for just componenets of the aircraft. Sonex offers a weekend builders seminar but they don't get into the nitty gritty of it like you do building a wing or the whole tail section. Might be something to consider. With my fusealage finished and just the wings to go I would seriously consider spending some extra money at this point to finish up quickly and get flying. I also might have considered a builders assistance center for the tail section. It was the first thing I built and it would have been nice to have someone looking over my shoulder helping me figure out what I was doing. There are a number of places you can go do this for an RV but nothing for a Sonex.

Also, you might want to consider posting this over on the yahoo sonextalk forums. I believe that Sonex only controls the sonexplans and aerovee groups. The sonextalk forum is open for everyone, plans holder or not. You would probably get alot of good feedback from the people over there.

My last suggestion would be to go and build whatever airplane you are going to offer builders assistance for before you start selling your service. If you believe that you can finish a sonex in 4 to 6 weeks I would suggest trying it. It will give you alot of insight on how the kit goes together and where you can speed things up. It will also give you more credibility when you are promoting your services.

Keith

Best Builder Assist Program IMHO

I attended the Alexander RV tail program in Griffin Ga. The progam's goal is to build a complete RV tail or empanage in one week. I enjoyed the program and it was very well attended. Expensive to a degree but well worth it.

To compare this program to your idea of a builder assist program, I would consider these points.

This program concentrates on one aspect of the RV build. I think doing everything requires too many tools/jigs to start.

It gets builders started on the right path, showing them the correct methods to build. (I was more apt to get assistance early on)

Has a great amount of builder feedback and gets better and better.

Any RV series program would be better as it is the gold standard in experimentals. THe great factory support has to be a plus.

Instructors are mega experienced and can work with a huge diversity in personalities.

Bottom line is I think you are trying to do too much off the bat. As with any small business, start small and build up. I second Paul's comment, right now everyone is holding onto money and whereby my financial consultant (wife) use to be forgiving of my flying obsession, she has her game face on now.

S S Anderson
RV 7A Flying
Lafayette, La.

Old saying....

....if you want to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large one...."
If your interests are more humanitarian, it is a great service to the building community.

JonJay said:

....if you want to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large one...."
If your interests are more humanitarian, it is a great service to the building community.

Click to expand...

I completely agree with Jonjay. As a CPA, I have done quite a bit in business modeling and startups. This may be in your heart, but would really be a tough go. Most builders are just to cost conscious to pay what it would be worth. "If you want to ruin your hobby, make it your business."

Synergy Air (http://www.synergyair.com/) in Eugene, OR has three different levels that they offer:

1. Basic weekend course
2. Week-long build-a-tail course
3. Private help

I haven't seen their books, but they're still in business

Another plus about the -12: It has easy on/off wings, so being off-airport is not such a big deal.

--Bill

JonJay said:

....if you want to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large one...."
If your interests are more humanitarian, it is a great service to the building community.

Click to expand...

Amen to that man...!

I don't want to rain on anyones dream because I'm a small business owner myself. But, however hard you think it's going to be, multiply it by 10. Any costs you estimate multiply by 4. Number of customers you estimate you can count on divide by 5. For every hour you plan on working, multiply it by 3. For every dollar you plan on paying yourself, divide by 5. For every weekend day you take off, add 3 more later to make it up. For every 1 thing that goes right, plan on 4 more that go will wrong. Things I never used to think about but now regularly do are things you musn't forget about; you need to account for things like building overhead, payroll taxes, workmans comp insurance, liability insurance, utilities, machines, tools, LOTS of replacements for drill bits, chucks, clecos, bandsaw blades, scotchbrite wheels, cutoff wheels, a damned good air compressor & accessories, computers that need replaced every few years, printers that only last a year or two and lots of ink, a fax machine that breaks each year, lots of paper, lots of pens, lots of posty notes, shipping supplies, an accountant, a lawyer, stamps, envelopes, checks, accounting software, website + hosting, chairs that break every year, a fridge, a microwave, cups, benches, toolboxes, some sort of phone system, other pieces of software (like TurboCad or something), storage racks or pallet racks, garbage, disposal of large crates that wings/fuselages come in, business cards, a hazardous/flam cabinet, storage cabinets, a safe, a radio, a brake, a shear, a good drill press, spare sheet-metal, batteries, light bulbs, soda and/or water, labor law posters, OSHA posters, first aid kits, toilet cleaner, toilet paper, hand cleaner, paper towels, and most of all TIME - LOTS of TIME. Don't forget to plan on the computer blowing up regularly, accounts receivable, accounts payable, cash flow, the phones not working regularly, power outages, weather problems, etc.. Plan on delays from vendors and suppliers, plan on delays from customers, plan on delays in your own life (like getting your hand caught in a prop or something).

I think if you seriously, objectively and carefully run the numbers you'll find it's not seriously attractive as a business proposal. I'm not saying it can't be done, because obviously it can...there are those people out there doing it - I know most of them. It's just that most of those people are like me, they started very, very small and grew into it over a long period of time because there is almost no way you could justify starting any of our businesses from scratch and make the payback work on paper unless you purely do it for the joy of doing it. Don't get me wrong, there are some aspects of running your own business that are extremely rewarding, but I'll bet that 99% of the general public has no clue how extremely difficult and stressful it really is.

Lastly and definitely the saddest and most sobering; if you get into the business plan on losing a good friend and/or customer or two or three or four or more per year in airplane crashes. Plan on participating in an NTSB crash investigation sooner or later (either voluntarily or not). Plan on calls and visits from the FAA. If you don't think this will take a toll on you, believe me - IT WILL!

Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Just sometimes people need to be reminded of the little things that escape the big plans. While it's possible to make that business work, it's not highly probable. I encourage people to follow their dreams and if it's something you really want to do you probably can find a way to make it work.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein

Thanks for all the great replies, I appreciate everyone's honesty and helpfulness. Thanks to the Sonex builders for providing feedback also. And thanks for the great post Stein, I don't look at your post as raining on a dream, but rather putting all the details into perspective.

A few thoughts:

- I had the same concerns about the Sonex that were mentioned - Not many people will pay for builder assist if they are building a Sonex in the first place. Plus, there aren't that many Sonex builders to start with. My potential partner still seems to like the Sonex for some reason.
- There are some very big ideas that my partner has, the builder assist center would be the first step. But if that's unsuccessful, how could we build upon it?
- I'm even more convinced that the RV-12 would be the only chance that the 4-6 week concept could work.
- Additionally, the RV-12 does not have to follow the 51% rule if built as an E-LSA. Our shop could build complete RV-12's with options for the builder to spend time building certain components to gain familiarity with the airplane.
- After talking with the Two Weeks to Taxi folks, the biggest problem that they had while the program was being developed was that customers couldn't take off more than two weeks, hence why the shrunk it to two weeks. I think in order for this to work, the amount of time the customer spends in the shop must be two weeks or less. The upside is that the rest of the airplane could be built without them present (as long as the customer was fine with that).
- Even with the various options from complete build to builder assist to workshops, I'm concerned that there still wouldn't be enough customers to fill up a shop.

Hi Eric...

....Y'know, quite a few businesses have sprung up as a result of the RV series. Classic Aero in Oregon is one that comes to mind, from a small, parttime business that they just steadily grew into a full time, multi employee business.

Would it be feasible/possible for you guys to follow a similar course? Building on a part time basis and not abandoning your financial security you now have would allow you that freedom. When your present work starts interfering with RV-12 building, you'll know if it's then gonna work full time or not.

Besides, you could build a portion of the airplane, like wings or empennage at your place, while the owner puts the fuse together at his place, or vice versa.

Regards,
Pierre

pierre smith said:

Would it be feasible/possible for you guys to follow a similar course? Building on a part time basis and not abandoning your financial security you now have would allow you that freedom. When your present work starts interfering with RV-12 building, you'll know if it's then gonna work full time or not.

Click to expand...

Pierre,

This is how I would prefer to do it, however I currently have no present work. I'm a mechanical engineer and was laid off in January with no work since. It's not a good position to be in, but it's reality.

A lot of this sounds awful similar to my business. Throw in some pilot supplies and tool sales, and you'll have it.

I also got into it because I was unemployed (and some of my family still consider me unemployed...playing with airplanes doesn't count to them!). The only advice I have at this point (I'm only 9 months in business) is watch the little stuff (like post it notes, light bulbs, etc.), those costs add up quickly. Always look for a way to save a buck in the stuff that doesn't matter. Don't skimp on the stuff that does. Quality tools are worth it. Customer service is worth it. Most everything else can be obtained or negotiated for at a reduced cost!

Good luck!

My company is hoping to start our first RV-12 project this winter, the builder assist stuff has dried a bit. I'm seeing a lot of people put projects on hold right now.