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RV14 "The Rabbit"

bkervaski

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Hey guys, we have a new RV-14 on the field (tail dragger).

On both wheel and 3-point landings, there's a lot of bounce. 70-73kts over the threshold, mains touching at the 7:00 position, right on the stall, a lot of bouncing down the runway (hence, the nickname). It's exaggerated on wheel landings.

With no 14 tail dragger experience, curious if you guys are experiencing the same thing and what you have done to adjust or any tips you may have?

Also, what tire pressures on the mains are you running?

Thanks! :D
 
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Bkervaski,
In my only 30 hours of phase one, I find over the fence speeds of 65 kts better .
If I come in any faster I too can bounce a little if I over flare.
I am very happy with the ground handling and i operate out of a 500 metre strip which I would only use 300 metres of when landing.
 
I don?t find the gear to be bouncy but it will bounce if you put it on too hard or fast. I suggest with a three point landing that you hold it off until the stick is fully aft. As far as a wheelie, approach it a bit faster (75-80) go for a soft touchdown then stick forward slightly to hold the front tires down.
 
If I remember only 3 things from my RV-14 lessons with Mike Seager when I get my plane in the air, they will be: 1. 75 knots over the fence. 2. It?s squirrelly on the mains. 3. If I don?t get the stick 100% all the way back to the stop, Mike will come to my airport and sternly tell me to get it there.

Any chance the pilot is relaxing the stick on touchdown instead of following through to the stop?
 
I have just finished phase 1. After a lot of 3 pt landings in an RV6 over 20 years, I find I struggle with patience waiting for the 14 to slow and settle. Wheel landings are different story - 70 knots over the fence and decelerating, 32 lbs in the tire, and landings are a dream. Higher tire pressures have resulted in good bounces.
 
Maybe I don't have a clue here but if you have to lower tire pressure to get a good landing somethings wrong.

I've heard customers say before that after I aired up their tires they can't land, I suggest they get some additional instruction instead of lowering tire pressure.

Maybe my7A is unique but I can land on the mains with no bouncing at 55psi.
 
If the 14 is like the 6 in that the wing is not stalled when in 3-point attitude, then you'll have to use similar technique for a 3-point... If you stall it onto the runway (stick full back), the tail will hit first. Do it a lot, and your tail cone will show the damage.

In general the advice I was given (and seems to be correct) is that if you're bouncing a lot when 3-pointing, you're coming in too fast. And if you're bouncing while wheel landing, you're coming in with too much vertical velocity, and/or you're not checking forward enough on the stick to keep the wheels pinned after touchdown.
 
Good info, thanks all, keep it coming :)

The reason I asked about the tire pressure was that I incorrectly assumed this plane, coming from the west coast to Alabama, was filled at a different altitude and understood that the tires haven't been checked since. My thoughts were they were over pressurized. Turned out not to be the case, the tires were actually slightly low.
 
Bill, perhaps you might tell us about pilot experience here.

The pilot, who may chime in, is a seasoned airline captain, very excited to re-learn small aircraft after being a CFI early in his career.

We've been spending time together getting him reoriented to GA and introduced to experimentals. He's been spending time with a local CFI rediscovering his tail wheel experience.

His new-to-him 14 had 55 hours when he picked it up, still full of gremlins. We're working them out.
 
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Ok, good.

In a typical tail-low wheel landing, a bounce is the result of too much vertical velocity and/or too much airspeed.

Way back when, in the Cub days, a mentor convinced me to use a visualization for wheel landings, which was, strangely enough, "Don't land, just fly very low". The plan is to try to fly 3" above the runway. Since the aircraft is slowing, it won't stay there, but if the pilot tries real hard to keep it there, it will fly onto the surface with very little vertical velocity.

Too much airspeed simply means more lift, so the wing magnifies any bounce. I'd suggest no more than 70 across the numbers, slowing.

Someone mentioned stick forward at touchdown to pin the landing. I would strongly recommend against that technique in an RV swinging a 74" prop, because it has a good change of turning it into a 72" prop.

Someone show him the one-wheel trick. Kills bounce energy in any taildragger. If after initial touchdown it skips back into the air, immediately drop one wing just a little. The next ground contact will be on the low wheel. The vertical energy will then dissipate in rolling the airplane toward the high wheel. Try it.

Wanna see one? Go here, start at 7:00, and watch Dan bounce. Moderately gusty day at OSH. I want to hit the yellow dot, run a little long, and let it sink in a vain attempt to save my pride, resulting in a bit too much vertical. I get a skip, so...drop the left wing, and shazamm, no further bounce. No stick push either. No pitch chasing of any kind. I like my prop.
https://youtu.be/ixcYBkXbAAw
 
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Dan - you made my day but I note your "bad" landing is still far superior to most of my landings in the new RV-8!

Yesterday was the "explore the aft CG limit" day that I put off as long as I could. I was thrilled that if anything I seemed more in control for the wheel landings.

Carl
Now at 30 hours
 
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There is some axle alignment that happens with the 14. Perhaps that could be checked to make sure everything is right there.
Every landing should be treated as a go around, if it looks good you can land.
I go back and forth between wheel landings and tail landings. I guess I am guilty of complacency, and after a number of good landings I get a bit lazy. This is usually the time to change to a different style.
37 years of tail draggers, and each one is different, but all delightful. (Well I could be happy never to fly in a Fleet Canuck again!)
 
I like Dan's comment "Don't land, Just fly very low".

When I was doing my PPL I just couldn't get my landings down. I went up with a differenct CFI who had me practice "not landing" - flying as low and slow as I could without landing. That one exercise solved my landing problem.
 
BTW, I second Walt's comment regarding tire pressure. Pressure in the 30 psi range is a common crutch for shimmy problems, but it doesn't do the tires and tubes any good...in particular with a tailwheel airplane, where they get more side loading and one-wheel action.

There is little physical reason to believe it reduces skip and bounce. RV gear is undamped, so a bounce stores energy in a big spring. I imagine only a very slightly lower overall (leg and tire combined) spring rate, and no damping.
 
......SNIP.......Wanna see one? Go here, start at 7:00, and watch Dan bounce. Moderately gusty day at OSH. I want to hit the yellow dot, run a little long, and let it sink in a vain attempt to save my pride, resulting in a bit too much vertical. I get a skip, so...drop the left wing, and shazamm, no further bounce. No stick push either. No pitch chasing of any kind. I like my prop.
https://youtu.be/ixcYBkXbAAw
Nicely done. And checkerboard flaps 😍
 
The wheel is on the wrong end, move it to the front and the landings are a cinch.....(anxiously waiting to get slammed for this comment) :)
 
I get alpha shamed every time I go to the field.

Reminds me of a friend who owned a C-172. I was always kidding her about having the tailwheel on the wrong end. Then I bought a Mooney. I had to have my story ready when I first visited her. Of course as soon as I taxied up, she ran out yelling, "Hey look. The tailwheel is on the wrong end!" My response was, "Yep, and I'm so ashamed of it, that I hide it as soon as I get off the ground."
 
65 KIAS on final for me and idle about 300’ or so from my aimpoint, assuming final was flown properly, calm winds, etc. Point being, if I bounce it’s usually either because I flare too high and drop it in or I’m carrying extra speed into the flare. My 3-pointers are almost-full backstick. I can’t seem to get it all the way there but pretty close. If I let the speed sneak up to 70 on final it takes forever to lose that extra speed. I feel like the gear on the -14 punishes you for every knot of excess speed and/or vertical rate. About 110 hours on mine so far and about to take a 2-month break while it gets a paint job :)
 
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Ok, good.

In a typical tail-low wheel landing, a bounce is the result of too much vertical velocity and/or too much airspeed.

Way back when, in the Cub days, a mentor convinced me to use a visualization for wheel landings, which was, strangely enough, "Don't land, just fly very low". The plan is to try to fly 3" above the runway. Since the aircraft is slowing, it won't stay there, but if the pilot tries real hard to keep it there, it will fly onto the surface with very little vertical velocity.

Too much airspeed simply means more lift, so the wing magnifies any bounce. I'd suggest no more than 70 across the numbers, slowing.

Someone mentioned stick forward at touchdown to pin the landing. I would strongly recommend against that technique in an RV swinging a 74" prop, because it has a good change of turning it into a 72" prop.

Someone show him the one-wheel trick. Kills bounce energy in any taildragger. If after initial touchdown it skips back into the air, immediately drop one wing just a little. The next ground contact will be on the low wheel. The vertical energy will then dissipate in rolling the airplane toward the high wheel. Try it.

Wanna see one? Go here, start at 7:00, and watch Dan bounce. Moderately gusty day at OSH. I want to hit the yellow dot, run a little long, and let it sink in a vain attempt to save my pride, resulting in a bit too much vertical. I get a skip, so...drop the left wing, and shazamm, no further bounce. No stick push either. No pitch chasing of any kind. I like my prop.
https://youtu.be/ixcYBkXbAAw

There is no way you will hit a 74? prop tip ?pinning? a wheel landing in the 14. And 9/10 wheel landings will require a slight forward nudge to keep the aircraft on ground...why? you ask...is because wheel landings are ?flown on? vs. ?flared on?.
Myself....always wheel landings on hard surface, flare landings on grass.
As far as bouncy....yes indeed...the 14 is the bounciest of the 28+ draggers I?ve flown. And it always happens when a flown/flair combo landing is attempted. And this is due to a lack of confidence in doing wheel landings or sight picture. The fear of striking a prop or tipping over due to the excellent visibility.
My trick....with this bird...ever so slight ?forward? trim after full configuration and ..zero flaps (go around, my choice) if runway length is not an issue. With main gear touchdown I relax the wrist a little allowing ever so slight down pitch to ?lock on? as the aircraft slows below flying speed. Then one more gear (tail) to softly land and voila.
A go around is always the first option, never the last and a big part of safe conventional aircraft operation.
I can only imagine the slight forward trim spooling up all the brains but,
36,000 + hours and no runs, drips, or errors ... so far..:eek:
R

Note: 74? vs. 72? Covered in previous threads, a possible 14 issue with HARD LANDINGS.
 
There is no way you will hit a 74” prop tip ‘pinning’ a wheel landing in the 14.

Certainly not when pinning a clean roll-on. Here, think about the thread title, i.e. "The Rabbit"...rusty pilot, multiple hops.

The 14 has long legs, so I cheerfully admit it would require serious foolishness, but you know what they say about "foolproof". I submit this example, a nice -14 in the hands of a new owner.

Prop%20Strike.jpg
 
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I recommend you look at Van's plan Section 40B (Tailwheel) landing gear drawings and inspect for cracks in the engine mount around the landing gear. If you can jack the plane off the landing gear you can determine if there is any play in the gear or Gear Axle Fitting U01421 L&R or axles.

On the 14-A, a missing U01402 bracket under the floor pan will certainly make the landing gear bounce. Lifting the plane to inspect the stability of the gear is a good starting point. After 175 hours I changed to Michelin tires, that was a big improvement in landing and handling. Mains 40 psi, nose 35.

And yes, Mike Segar is a very effective RV instructor with over 20,000 RV hours. He laughed at my heavy aircraft skills the first hour of my transition training. He's the best.
 
I have a 74? prop on my -14. In level attitude I measured 13? from tip to ground. That would be one hard landing/ bounce.
 
RV-14 landing

I have 85 hours on the -14 with a 74" prop. After my transition training and coming in on short final at 75 KIAS I now slow to 65KIAS on short final.

It is a difficult airplane to get greasers out of. Its not twitchy or wild feeling but it can feel a little bit stiff legged when trying to get a seamless air to ground transition. I would say I get a true greaser maybe 1/3 of my landings and it requires a steady hand, it won't do it if muscled on. You can muscle it on and have a near perfect speed and descent rate but it may skip or "bounce" an inch of two before settling on the mains.

Its definitely not like flying a large aircraft with huge shocks that absorb the worst landings or a 172 that you can consistently grease on.

Maybe this will change as I get a few hundred more hours in the -14 but I would say that landings like that were pretty normal. I also had the same experience with Seager in the factory -14. Its greases on easy in grass!
 
I imagine an RV-14 prop is pretty safe at first ground contact. As Rob said, a fella would have to hit hard, given a more-or-less level attitude. That's not to say there is a lot of margin. If you're really curious, Vans has done drop tests, and Neal Willford published a good landing gear spreadsheet via EAA.

Example from a past design project. It's an RV-7 sized leg at 3.7G, 36 tire psi, no braking, and 1850 lbs, on a biplane frame. Total loss of ground clearance is the sum of leg and tire deflection. Clearance can get used up pretty fast.

Example%20Gear%20Deflection.jpg


Lawn chair observation says the spit hits the fan during the subsequent hops, if the pilot chases them in pitch...the rabbit hop I think Bill was describing. We've all seen serious PIO at one time or another. If you can tear the nose leg off a tricycle, you can surely drive a prop into the ground with conventional gear.
 
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Certainly not when pinning a clean roll-on. Here, think about the thread title, i.e. "The Rabbit"...rusty pilot, multiple hops.

The 14 has long legs, so I cheerfully admit it would require serious foolishness, but you know what they say about "foolproof". I submit this example, a nice -14 in the hands of a new owner.

Prop%20Strike.jpg

Wow!
Hence my comment about ?Go Arounds?. I go by the one try rule, always have. Not good on the first, go around. No hopping, no saves, no retries, nadda, zip...go around. It?s part of the business. Do it until you run out of gas, then it gets real easy.
That prop looks like a over rotation on takeoff. Hmmm.
Ouch...
R
 
I like Dan's comment "Don't land, Just fly very low".

When I was doing my PPL I just couldn't get my landings down. I went up with a differenct CFI who had me practice "not landing" - flying as low and slow as I could without landing. That one exercise solved my landing problem.

I teach this with all of my students when they display difficulty with landing. (Disclaimer - I don't teach tailwheel flying, but the principles are still the same)

I'll often take them to Martinsburg, WV (KMRB) which has an 8000' runway and make them practice trying to stay at 10 feet over the centerline for the entire length. Then 5 feet...then....nice landings. :)
 
Aircraft weight/ approach speed

Bill,

I agree with all the posters that say your friend is landing too fast with excess energy causing the bouncing. An additional 5kts will increase landing distance 10% not including the distance lost to the bounces. I recommend he use the standard 1.3VSo approach speed for better results. I use AOA which is calibrated for 1.3 as shown in the picture below (picture provided by halie.com:)). This picture was taken at about 800AGL turning base to final. A few more inches MAP would have cut the decent rate to the standard 500FPM.
oNI.jpg

The speed above is for 1 pilot and a little less than 1/2 fuel, so about 1600 to 1630lbs. At this weight my Vso was 50kts. At gross weight my Vso is closer to 55kts for an approach speed of 72kts.

I use 1.3Vso for all approaches. The only difference between a wheel landing and a three point is the amount of flare and power.

My wheel landings for the picture above were slightly tail low and touchdown at about the 5 o’clock position on the mains at 60kts with a slight amount of power (10ish MAP) and a decent rate somewhere between 0 and 100fpm (that was the resolution of the EFIS). I do a slight bank to search for the ground with one wheel because it will cut any bounce in half. :)

3 point landings have the same approach speed the difference being power is reduced to zero and the flare is raised to about 11 degrees. The 14 gear sit at about 11 degrees, but the aircraft stalls at 13 degrees so my touchdown was closer to 53kts. Any slower requires the tailwheel to touch first.
 
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If the 14 is like the 6 in that the wing is not stalled when in 3-point attitude, then you'll have to use similar technique for a 3-point... If you stall it onto the runway (stick full back), the tail will hit first. Do it a lot, and your tail cone will show the damage.

In general the advice I was given (and seems to be correct) is that if you're bouncing a lot when 3-pointing, you're coming in too fast. And if you're bouncing while wheel landing, you're coming in with too much vertical velocity, and/or you're not checking forward enough on the stick to keep the wheels pinned after touchdown.

I agree with Rob. In my Rocket, with higher wing loading than the 14, I approach at about 68-70 knots. The RV-14 has 15 percent more wing area and longer span, so I think it should approach slower than that. It does take a while to get to know a new aircraft and I've had my share of bounced landings until I learned to trim to short final approach speed on landing. Hands off, with full up trim, I stabilize at 68 knots, but this is dependent on aircraft rigging.

V
 
Someone show him the one-wheel trick. Kills bounce energy in any taildragger. If after initial touchdown it skips back into the air, immediately drop one wing just a little. The next ground contact will be on the low wheel. The vertical energy will then dissipate in rolling the airplane toward the high wheel. Try it.

Wanna see one? Go here, start at 7:00, and watch Dan bounce. Moderately gusty day at OSH. I want to hit the yellow dot, run a little long, and let it sink in a vain attempt to save my pride, resulting in a bit too much vertical. I get a skip, so...drop the left wing, and shazamm, no further bounce. No stick push either. No pitch chasing of any kind. I like my prop.
https://youtu.be/ixcYBkXbAAw

Dan. Excellent advice on the "drop the wing" trick. Between the likes of you and having hung out for a couple of beers with Bruce Bohannon I am learning some mighty fine stuff that once revealed instantly makes sense in an "of course" sort of way. Thanks.
 
Hey guys, we have a new RV-14 on the field (tail dragger).

On both wheel and 3-point landings, there's a lot of bounce. 70-73kts over the threshold, mains touching at the 7:00 position, right on the stall, a lot of bouncing down the runway (hence, the nickname). It's exaggerated on wheel landings.

With no 14 tail dragger experience, curious if you guys are experiencing the same thing and what you have done to adjust or any tips you may have?

Also, what tire pressures on the mains are you running?

Thanks! :D

Dear Bunny,
I have had two -4 and now a -14 and building another. I find the RV's I have flown are very easy to land if you have the speeds right. I would first nail down your stall speeds in all configurations. I think you will find that they are lower than you may think. My -14 is around 55kts IAS in landing configuration. So, if I come in over then fence at 75Kts, I have 20 to lose before she quits flying. 20kts is a lot to lose in a RV. Most instructors will preach "speed is your friend" but in a RV, I have found it is not your friend on landing, any excess speed will translate into lift. My two cents.

YellaDawg
 
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