I'm having trouble rationalizing this one through: do I mount my Infinity stick grip normal to the centerline as I intuitively would, or offset as I have read that others have recommended on this forum ?? Pros and cons ?? How about you Military guys; what do your F-15's and F-16's have ??
Van's Air Force
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stick grip orientation
- Thread starter larryj
- Start date
blueflyer
Well Known Member
Throttle
Don, it looks like I see a red mixture knob below that that nice looking grip on the left side, so how do you use that grip and all those buttons on top? Lastly, where can I get one?
Sorry for the topic drift.....I slightly rotated my grip to the left on my control stick (I hold my stick with my left hand) to more naturally fit my hand.
Larry, while mine isn't an Infinity grip, it still demonstrates how I mounted mine with an angle that matches how my hand naturally falls onto the grip when flying. This picture shows the amount of angle off-center, which isn't a lot ...
Hope that helps!
Don, it looks like I see a red mixture knob below that that nice looking grip on the left side, so how do you use that grip and all those buttons on top? Lastly, where can I get one?
Sorry for the topic drift.....I slightly rotated my grip to the left on my control stick (I hold my stick with my left hand) to more naturally fit my hand.
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Good Question
I recall a discussion my human factors class had on this topic (many years ago). At that time the consensus was that centerline orientation was best. I don't recall the rationale but I think (repeat "think") that it had to do with making control inputs while in a high gain task. That is you are unconsciously moving the stick with consciously focusing on something else. Don't quote me on this as my memory is just not that accurate.
I have the infinity also and have oriented them fore/aft but will rotate them later should that provide a better feel as it were.
Don
I recall a discussion my human factors class had on this topic (many years ago). At that time the consensus was that centerline orientation was best. I don't recall the rationale but I think (repeat "think") that it had to do with making control inputs while in a high gain task. That is you are unconsciously moving the stick with consciously focusing on something else. Don't quote me on this as my memory is just not that accurate.
I have the infinity also and have oriented them fore/aft but will rotate them later should that provide a better feel as it were.
Don
Definitely offset a bit.
Sit with your hand in you lap simulating the cockpit. you can see it is just not natural to have your thumb pointing straight ahead ( which is, effectively what you would be doing) If you do a long flight you will find, you wrist will actually get a bit tired.
I think mine (RV8) is about 30 degrees off set.
My .02 cents
Nordo
Sit with your hand in you lap simulating the cockpit. you can see it is just not natural to have your thumb pointing straight ahead ( which is, effectively what you would be doing) If you do a long flight you will find, you wrist will actually get a bit tired.
I think mine (RV8) is about 30 degrees off set.
My .02 cents
Nordo
My preference is offset. That's how it is done in a number of craft where I work, and it feels very natural. I've never had an issue with "off-axis" inputs - and it sure would get tiring having the wrist cranked funny on a trip.
I've got lots and lots of Acro hours that way - the Infinity (at least) just fits well with an angle for me.
Paul
I've got lots and lots of Acro hours that way - the Infinity (at least) just fits well with an angle for me.
Paul
N8RV
Well Known Member
Blueflyer, PM sent.
Wow, thanks for the replies so-far. More welcome. The concensus seems to lean towards offset; normal to one's arm.
A little more background:
It seems intuitive to me at first glance for the stick grip to be oriented normal to the aircraft. In nearly all of my design (medical devices) we use this axiom as our baseline. However, I have flown the vast majority of my time with two-fingers; rarely griping the stick with a full fist grip. This would indicate the orientation of the stick grip is only important in higher stress / higher load situations when one does fully grip the control. I can reason/argue with myself all day on which orientation is better, which is why I posted the question here. I am surprised to learn that the military (or otherwise government funded; no dig here, just envy) hardware has offset controls. Which is good enough for me to switch my leaning.
A little more background:
It seems intuitive to me at first glance for the stick grip to be oriented normal to the aircraft. In nearly all of my design (medical devices) we use this axiom as our baseline. However, I have flown the vast majority of my time with two-fingers; rarely griping the stick with a full fist grip. This would indicate the orientation of the stick grip is only important in higher stress / higher load situations when one does fully grip the control. I can reason/argue with myself all day on which orientation is better, which is why I posted the question here. I am surprised to learn that the military (or otherwise government funded; no dig here, just envy) hardware has offset controls. Which is good enough for me to switch my leaning.
Over-application of a concept
My $0.02: I think the reasoning presented in favor of orienting the grip normal to the axes of the aircraft rather than to the natural position of the hand was based on a valid idea, but mis-applied in this case.
The motion of the stick should be, and is, lined up with the corresponding axes of the aircraft. Fwd-aft is pitch, left-right is roll. This is where the idea of maintaining a matched geometry to the airframe naturally applies, which I think everyone here agrees.
The orientation of the stick grip is another matter. It is independent of the motion of the stick, and can be determined based on different considerations. I would argue that it is best dictated by ergonomics, letting the hand and wrist rest in a natural and comfortable position. And it sounds like the the military and commercial aircraft industries have arrived at that same conclusion.
My $0.02: I think the reasoning presented in favor of orienting the grip normal to the axes of the aircraft rather than to the natural position of the hand was based on a valid idea, but mis-applied in this case.
The motion of the stick should be, and is, lined up with the corresponding axes of the aircraft. Fwd-aft is pitch, left-right is roll. This is where the idea of maintaining a matched geometry to the airframe naturally applies, which I think everyone here agrees.
The orientation of the stick grip is another matter. It is independent of the motion of the stick, and can be determined based on different considerations. I would argue that it is best dictated by ergonomics, letting the hand and wrist rest in a natural and comfortable position. And it sounds like the the military and commercial aircraft industries have arrived at that same conclusion.
finalized at 22 degrees
Just to wrap this up, I positioned my grip offset 22 degrees from normal. Input here was all inclusive from normal to the aircraft centerline to offset; the majority favoring and reasoning the offset anywhere from 12 degrees to 30 degrees. I arrived at 22 degrees by sitting in the aircraft making engine noises - which is far from where I started my thinking. Thanks everyone for your input !!
Just to wrap this up, I positioned my grip offset 22 degrees from normal. Input here was all inclusive from normal to the aircraft centerline to offset; the majority favoring and reasoning the offset anywhere from 12 degrees to 30 degrees. I arrived at 22 degrees by sitting in the aircraft making engine noises - which is far from where I started my thinking. Thanks everyone for your input !!
Robert M
Well Known Member
....and then there are the side-by-side aircraft that have the throttle controls in the center of the panel. The left hand is then used to manipulate the control stick. If the grip is twisted for the right hand (righties flying with right hand) then the left hand will have to make some interesting adjustments to the feel off the grip. Of course, this really only plays in when one is in the pattern at an airport and the right hand (center throttle controls) is glued to the throttle controls - or at least that was the way I was taught.
One more little distaction when the pilot is at his busiest?
One more little distaction when the pilot is at his busiest?
Grip position
I just installed my Infinity grips. Playing around I also came to the conclusion that 22 degrees was just right, influenced by your post but confirmed by what seemed most comfortable for me. Thanks for this thread, it helped a lot.
I just installed my Infinity grips. Playing around I also came to the conclusion that 22 degrees was just right, influenced by your post but confirmed by what seemed most comfortable for me. Thanks for this thread, it helped a lot.
For an Infinity grip, you'll be drilling a hole through the stick (a pretty good sized one) to hold the grip on, so changing it later is pretty much getting a new stick. Not a huge deal if your stick is straight, but for the bent stick guys, you have to have the new one bent as well....
Paul
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I used the Tosten grip in my 10, it is held in place with a set screw. I just left it loose until I figured out exactly where I wanted it.
Gonna have to tighten that set screw one of these days.
I tried looking at their site, but it appears to be down...
http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.tostenmanufacturing.com
Yeah
29/32's to be exact, which is kind of a pain on a rounded surface. I think you could relieve the fore and aft sides of the hole with a dremel to allow a few degrees plus or minus. But after that you are into a new stick. Plan carefully grasshopper...
29/32's to be exact, which is kind of a pain on a rounded surface. I think you could relieve the fore and aft sides of the hole with a dremel to allow a few degrees plus or minus. But after that you are into a new stick. Plan carefully grasshopper...
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
