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Forgoing Air Drill/Grinder In RV Build

Ali

Member
I am in the process of starting my first RV (and aircraft) build. I live in a rental house with a garage, but I am limited in how I can set up the shop in the garage since it is not my house. One of the big limitations is having a compressor that can provide the right CFM for the air-hungry pneumatic drills and grinders. The greatest difficulty is not having access to 220 V power source and also the immense cost of the nicer air compressors.

Is it possible to forgo the air drills and grinders and instead use corded electrical versions for an RV build? Or am I going to be extremely frustrated when working?

I haven't decided on whether I want to go to the QB route or do the standard build. Will my choice make the process any worst/easier?
 
You don't need a huge compressor to build. I did my complete slow build using this cheap compressor.

IMG_6691-M.jpg


The high speed of an air drill is nice for drilling/countersinking, but for just match drilling holes, an electric drill is fine.

The die grinder will tax the smaller compressors, but you won't be using that tool too often.

Please remember to use appropriate hearing protection with these compressors in a small enclosed space. They are LOUD.
 
My Makita 10V lithium compact drill was my probably my second favourite tool of the build, probably second only to the tungsten bucking bar. You are still going to need a compressor for the rivet gun, but if you can find an electric powered die grinder for edge finishing, then you could probably get away with a much smaller compressor, as the rivet gun uses virtually nothing in comparison to the die grinder (the die grinder is a total pig).
A second lithium drill (18V version) is great for countersinking. I find the extra RPM gives a better finish than the slightly slower 10V.
The electric drills are great. I almost never used my air drill, and I think the RPM advantage of the air drill is completely overstated. I looked with a powerful magnifying glass at both holes (air drill v's electric) and could not see a difference in quality.
Where you will need a good sized compressor is spray painting if you intend to prime. I did large sheets with the compressor and my spray gun in bulk batches at the start, then used rattle can zinc phosphate etch for the smaller items during the build. I did my entire build and paint (including exterior) on a twin cylinder, 3hp, 15gal tank, although I did build a water bath cooling loop for the exit air to dry the air and stop fisheyes in the paint and primer.
Good luck.
Tom
RV-7
 
The QB kit has substantially less riveting for the builder than the standard kit. I went QB as I wanted that significant head start on airframe completion. I used a 10 gallon compressor for riveting. Various cordless and electric drills were more than adequate along with a benchtop drill press. I found that I got better and more consistent counter sinking results with the drill press.

I used rattle can primer wherever I had access. On the QB, major portions are inaccessible for priming, especially the wing, so I just accepted the Vans wash primer as adequate. I used a Zip tool with the Vans supplied cutting wheel to cut the canopy.
 
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Agree. Cordless drills are now so small and powerful that I got two small sized 18V and the high dollar air drill just sits. Sometimes the slim line nature of my air drill comes in handy though.
 
A Sioux air drill is really nice to use, especially when reaming hundreds of rivet holes. Kind of pricey, though. As for compressors, mine has a 30 gallon tank and can be wired to run on 110 or 220.

That said, a cordless will work just fine. Never really did use the grinder for much of anything.
 
I have a cheap HF compressor that runs off 120V, but it's loud. I have an air drill, but I've only used it when I couldn't get my regular drill into some tight spaces, so maybe once or twice and I'm about done with the empennage.

I haven't really used a grinder, I've done everything using a belt sander so far. Also cheap, electric, and got it off Amazon. I haven't had the need to run my die grinder much since everything I'm doing is parts that can move to the grinder instead of the other way around.

My entire build I used this drill and have never had the need to utilize the higher RPMs of the air drill.
 
No air drill

I have a makita cordless brushless drill. Best drill i ever owned. I dont have an air drill or a die grinder and never had the need. For those tight spots, I just use a 12? drill or 90 angle drill attachment.
I do have an electric dremel tool.
I have not had the need for a die grinder, but I havent got to the canopy or fiberglass stuff yet.
 
What Bruce said. I used a similar sized compressor for an entire slow build. I have a 'build room' inside a regular hangar, and put the compressor outside the room, which lowered the noise level a lot. Working in a garage, you could put it in a laundry/utility room, or just roll it outside while working. Make a small shelter for it in case of rain; it could be as simple as a piece of roofing tin long enough to lean against the wall with the compressor under it. Most air grinder jobs on an RV won't tax your compressor patience that much (riveting, not at all). You can also get electric substitutes now that can do most of what air grinders can do, just in a somewhat bigger package.

For cutting the canopy or thin aluminum, google 'bone saw' (or 'oscillating multi tool'). They came on the market at affordable prices only near the end of my construction phase, and I could have used one *a lot* if it had been available earlier.
 
Cordless

A few tools need air. Rivet gun and pneumatic. Otherwise, I switched to Ryobi cordless.
Drills, Angke grinder, sanders, etc. You can rattle can paint if you want to prime.
 
Thank you for all your input. It looks like it should be manageable without the air drill or grinder. I plan on purchasing multiple other forms of electric tools like drill press, bench grinder, etc. The compressor is just a tough one for me.

In regard to the priming, I plan on sourcing that part out because I don't really have the space to mess with those types of harsh chemicals. Especially that it's a rental house, it will make it even tougher. I'm currently looking for a shop to get quotes on costs to alodine and epoxy primer all the aluminum parts that need priming.
 
Rental house is different than a condo set up, tho people still build planes (cars and boats) in those places too and have compressors. You can do a a lot with a 120v compressor and dont really need a big one. With just rivetting and air drilling you could get away with something the roofers use if you wanted. You can always hook up a cheater air tank or two for extra capacity.

As far as priming goes, really spend some quality time in the primer section here. Alodine etc really is old old school as the epoxy primers today are really tough. Akzo 463 for example is bullet proof, stupid easy to put on, and only comes off mechanically (and you gotta really go at it) once its dried - 10 mins in >70F. You really would be spending a whole lot of money (and time lost) farming that stuff out. Just my .02 tho
 
Compressor

California Air Tools makes a compressor that is very quiet. I sold my old noisy one when I moved to GA and bought theirs for $160. It?s a #1 seller and has 55 5star reviews as of today. Quiet and works great. U shouldn?t need any more capacity and neighbors won?t know u are using it.
 
I went with the largest Harbor Freight compressor I could find that was 1) oiled, 2) 2 stage (quieter) and 3) 110V. It has served me well for the last 8 years of building. All my tools are air driven and my compressor is in the workshop with me, without a sound box around it. I do wear ear muffs when working for long hours as the compressor noise is more than I'd like. However, I really didn't want to spend several $K to upgrade the panel in my house to run 220V. Works just fine, as long as you're not spraying paint with it.
 
I built my empennage with only an electric drill and a pancake compressor running my rivet gun and squeezer. Worked just fine and I believe would continue to work, just with some limitations.

As the build went on though, I knew I eventually wanted to get a die grinder for some deburring, spray primer with an HVLP, and get an air drill so I invested in a Lowes 30 gal 2 stage unit and I couldn't be happier. I decided early on that I was going to to equip myself with tools that I wouldn't need to upgrade in short order and that would make the building process enjoyable. Although I'm in rib deburring **** at the moment, I'll get back to using air and drilling/banging rivets here shortly.
 
If you grab the keyless chuck on most chordless drills it will wiggle. The cheaper the drill the looser the chuck is. The good air drills have solid ball bearings and they are tight. A loose spindle means more runout and therefore a bigger hole with the same bit. That's before you consider the runout of the chuck. Is this a big deal? There are milspecs that dictate what the tolerances are for rivets to achieve full strength. Those are what I would consult to see if this level of accuracy is relevant or not. I certainly would not rely on somebidy saying "I built my whole airplane that way" as any sort of evidence that it is ok.
 
Scott is spot on. Also, every guide you will find wants your drill to be spinning at 2000-3000 rpm for aluminum for most hole sizes in an RV. Why? That is where proper drill pressure will allow good chip production, the bit is doing the work, clearing and cooling by passing material. You?re not tearing the material out of the hole, you?re cutting it out.
All this doesn?t mean a lot when we are just drilling sheet. It is a pretty low tolerance task for most RV work.
However, pick up your Sioux spinning at 2400rpm, then you?re typical rechargeable or electric spinning at? Less than 1000, some better ones up to 2000? Less? You will notice the pressure it takes to drill vs the Sioux, or better pneumatic.
So, does it matter? I have no doubt you can build an RV without a pneumatic drill. Can you find one that spins up to recommendations, has decent bearings, chuck, etc....? That?s what I would want if I headed down that path.
 
Ali, these airplanes need some riveting. And a hand squeezer isn't going to manage all of them. Some of them need a rivet gun, and for that you'll need a source of compressed air.

Dave
 
A $150 pancake compressor will take care of every air *need* you have to build an airplane. Will you occasionally wait for pressure to build? Sure, but that's a minute or two here and there.

Too many people get caught in the trap of "gotta have the very best of everything". Yes, a 5 hp, two stage, 220V compressor with a 50 gallon tank would be great. Even better if you located it in a room by itself and hard piped air to to a distribution network complete with built in dryers, moisture traps, and the like.

But a huge number of airplanes have been built with a 110v portable compressor feeding air through a flexible hose.

Don't over-think things. Just buy what you need and start building. It's just an airplane.
 
I use this and I reckon it is great - the 2 batteries are very handy, and it’s not that expensive. And it’s silent compared to the airdrill so I can use it at night.

The best part is the keyless chuck / my air drill had a keyed chuck and it took time to change the bits over (time to find the chuck key). This one I reckon is much better. I use it for countersinking using the cage as well.

I have found I never use the die grinder - dangerous, loud and uses too much air. Instead I mount a AlO2 flapper wheel or a 1” scotchbrite in my drill press and move the part - even the 3m long fuse longerons. For cut off wheels I use a battery powered Dremel.

https://www.ryobi.com.au/power-tools/products/details/12v-drill-kit

YMMV!
 
Ali, these airplanes need some riveting. And a hand squeezer isn't going to manage all of them. Some of them need a rivet gun, and for that you'll need a source of compressed air.

Dave

Just to clarify I don't intend on skipping a compressor. My original question was whether I can skip buying a large compressor that can handle an air drill and pneumatic grinder. Even a 2 stage 220V compressor will struggle to maintain the 20 CFM requirement of most air drills. I don't have any problems buying a medium performance compressor that can handle a rivet gun.

If you grab the keyless chuck on most chordless drills it will wiggle. The cheaper the drill the looser the chuck is. The good air drills have solid ball bearings and they are tight. A loose spindle means more runout and therefore a bigger hole with the same bit. That's before you consider the runout of the chuck. Is this a big deal? There are milspecs that dictate what the tolerances are for rivets to achieve full strength. Those are what I would consult to see if this level of accuracy is relevant or not. I certainly would not rely on somebidy saying "I built my whole airplane that way" as any sort of evidence that it is ok.

Scott is spot on. Also, every guide you will find wants your drill to be spinning at 2000-3000 rpm for aluminum for most hole sizes in an RV. Why? That is where proper drill pressure will allow good chip production, the bit is doing the work, clearing and cooling by passing material. You?re not tearing the material out of the hole, you?re cutting it out.
All this doesn?t mean a lot when we are just drilling sheet. It is a pretty low tolerance task for most RV work.
However, pick up your Sioux spinning at 2400rpm, then you?re typical rechargeable or electric spinning at? Less than 1000, some better ones up to 2000? Less? You will notice the pressure it takes to drill vs the Sioux, or better pneumatic.
So, does it matter? I have no doubt you can build an RV without a pneumatic drill. Can you find one that spins up to recommendations, has decent bearings, chuck, etc....? That?s what I would want if I headed down that path.


My intentions were to do most of my drilling in a drill press. Those can typically do 2900-3300 RPM with decent amount of torque. The downside is that I can't use a drill press on an assembled body since it'll be too big to fit inside the drill press work space. That's when I will have to rely on a electric hand drill.
 
My intentions were to do most of my drilling in a drill press.

I'd guess that 90% of drilling operations for this whole plane will be in place, and a drill press will be of no help in those situations.
 
I agree with Girraf
For RV construction, you will find that the majority (90+%) of drilling will be done with a hand drill, it is still nice to have the drill press for some functions. A light, high speed, re-chargable drill would be good for majority (80+%) of the hand drilling. A die grinder is nice to have for the odd job, but will not see much usage in assembling these planes. A 120V portable compressor will hold up to usage for most hand tools generally as these tools don't call for sustained delivery of volume air, you still have to take breaks to consult the plans & such! Where the smaller compressors fall short is when used for painting, high volumes at sustained pressure will tax even some high capacity compressor systems.
On the question of going standard build vs QB, If you can afford the very economically priced time & build quality advantage QBs offer, GO FOR IT!
 
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Ali,

Bottom line is that almost any small compressor will do fine for building an RV. As others have said, air grinders won't see a lot of use, and there are electric alternatives, anyway. Contrary to the opinions from the 'space certified' crowd, you can get a cordless drill that's perfectly adequate for drilling operations, sacrificing only size/weight, and speed.

On the other hand, an air drill, unlike an air grinder or spray gun, will not significantly tax a small compressor. The small 'palm drills' typically used to build RVs just don't use that much air. You'll be running a drill in very short bursts when match drilling, or with much longer time gaps between drilling operations, if you're drilling 'raw' holes.

Buy whatever size compressor you're willing to 'feed' (whether in electricity or money), knowing that you can still build the plane.

For a little perspective: Back in the days before quickbuild kits, even before kits, by any current definition, and obviously long before the internet, aluminum a/c got built in home shops without any compressor at all, literally using hammers to set the rivets. Know that you can do this, without spending more on the tools than the plane.

Charlie
 
I just bought a tiny compressor from horror fraught for $57. I bet it would spin an air drill just fine. At least for long enough to drill a hole. Spend your money on good air tools. They are a pleasure to use and do accurate work. Air die grinder is a nice to have, but you can substitute files, elbow grease and enthusiasm. Not how I would do it but everyone is different. I look at all the tools I have needed on mine and I probably should have bought them all at once and saved a LOT of shipping. dimple dies, clecos, drills, hole finders, rivet sets and on and on. You need it all. but it's true you don't need a 60 gallon compressor. But I wouldn't part with mine :)
 
No, you don't need a 2-stage or 30 gallon air tank to build. Honestly even when match or final drilling, you are not constantly using the tool where you need 100 CFM output at 250 PSI. (sorry slight sarcasm).

Can you get by with a 3 Gallon pancake compressor? yea, but you may find that the compressor will run non-stop and you may have to let it sit every now and then.

An 8 Gallon portable compressor with 4.1 SFCM at 90 PSI should meet needs for most jobs when building. Exceptions may be if you plan on using an air-powered sander, or grinder for large areas.

With a 12 gallon tank I bought years ago, the only time I had to wait for the tank to recharge because it couldn't keep up was when I was using the air grinder with a 3m wheel for deburring.

As others have said, the modern cordless drills and other tools are more than sufficient. It's all a matter of preference.
 
Jay Pratt has built about 50 RVs in his shop and all he has for a compressor is a small 15 or 20 gal type compressor, probably from Sears over 20 years ago.
Just sayin....

Also, I don't think I have even used my Sioux drills for my last two builds. I use a couple of DeWalt 20A lithium drills and I have several dremels that I use a lot, including for cutting canopies.
 
I just bought a tiny compressor from horror fraught for $57. I bet it would spin an air drill just fine. At least for long enough to drill a hole.

An air drill under no load needs something like 5 cfm @ 90 psi. With intermittent usage final drilling pre-punched holes you'll be within the spec on the compressor. When you go to actually drill a new hole the cfm requirement jumps up to 15-20 cfm. Sioux rates their palm drills at 20 cfm max.

I have two compressors. One is a ~2.5 cfm quiet Kobalt that I use for final drilling, riveting, clecoing, and light die grinder usage for edge prep. That compressor would not run the air drill going through the 1/8" thick longerons along the tailcone. I could get MAYBE 2-3 holes and then I'd have to wait 2-3 minutes for it to catch up. So I had to run a line through the house to my other compressor - a 60 gallon 18 CFM compressor. That compressor could keep up but it was running around 50-60% of the time.

So yeah it'll drill ONE hole no problem.

I really like using the air drill. It's so much lighter than my electric drill. I haven't tried one of the Bosch mini electric drills though. They seem nice with comparable weight and would probably work just as well.

I'm honestly pretty close to punching a hole through the garage and running a hard line to the basement so I can have unlimited air again.
 
Compressor

Started with a 20 gallon tank and 110V compressor and it did it all.

True, one had to wait sometime to let it cool or just catch up. It was loud and oilless though.

Happened across an auction and bought a 60 gallon 220 V that i wired in myself(saved a buck) and could not be happier! Quiet, lots of air and when i paint it the CFM rating will handle ANY paint load. I paid 200 bucks Cdn and it works perfect.

Would I purchase new at 800 Cdn., no! Really wasnt necessary, even painting could be done with the smaller, louder one but you would have to make sure you planned it, as if you run out of air the paint might form an edge as it dried before air was up again.

I do love my air tools and not sure about the "specs" on drilling but i feel the air drill does make a better faster hole.

Dave
 
I see 2 advantages of a high speed air drill. The burr is less prominent and the air drill starts and stops almost instantly. This really increases your efficiency.
 
You can get a good start with a 2.5 HP 10 gal. OIL lube (see Harbor Freight) air compressor. Later, if you need more, add another to double your cfm and capacity. When the project is over you can take one to the hangar and still have one at home.

Add an 11 gal air tank from Harbor Freight for $40.00 and you end up with 10.6 cfm and 31 gallons of storage for a very small investment and many options when your project is done.
 
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