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Anyone do business with Innovation?

That does sound sketchy. I can maybe see a deposit before you fly it, but not to look. I think what they really said was look at another plane, not this one. There are plenty to pick from with sellers that are reasonable.
 
the seller won't let you look at it without a $5K deposit.

I would expect that plane to be on the market for while.:) I don't care how nice the plane is, I would chuckle and move onto to something else. Just imagine how many curve balls someone who thinks like that will throw you throughout the process.

Larry
 
I see that the ad says it was "professionally built." I wonder if the Special Airworthiness Certificate was issued for the purpose of operating a "professionally built" airplane...
 
Interested in an RV7A local to me and the seller won't let you look at it without a $5K deposit.

Run, don't walk, away from this.

Anyone that wants Money up front to get a look is an automatic walk away.
 
so what is reasonable?

to make this educational, what's the protocol?

Obviously I want someone to come look at my plane. If I think he's qualified, I take him for a short flight.
He can take photos and look at every rivet and build picture, inspect the logs etc.

......if he wants his mechanic to start pulling plugs and covers, we need to have some kind of understanding.
I have heard that the norm is the buyer makes an offer subject to the plane passing his inspection....
if the offer is accepted, the seller lets the buyer do the inspection, at buyers expense.

Does he need to make a deposit to do this inspection? certainly shows that he's serious, and is an indicator that he can produce the other 95% of the money!
Who holds the funds? a notary, broker, etc?

I'm new to this also, so what does average buyer & seller expect?
 
I got to the point of making an offer on another plane, then when I offered to pay for the prebuy at another service shop 5nm away they wouldn't move the plane even though I was paying for all costs. Seemed like a huge red flag, so I bailed on that one too.

Protocol that seems most comfortable to me:
1) Look at it in person
2) If you like it make an offer and do a prebuy contract of some sort
3) Fly it
4) Buyer pays prebuy expenses
5) Contract and payment.
 
When we bought the 172, we found the seller, agreed on a price based on the premise that the aircraft would be "as described" and pass a pre-buy inspection, no deposit. Seller transported the airplane to our shop of choice for prebuy, which came out as expected, top-shelf, we paid the prebuy and fuel cost for transport. We then flew commercial to inspect the airplane in person and test fly it, it all checked out as described and advertised, deal was closed on the spot.

If your seller is legitimate, they won't throw roadblocks in front of potential buyers, they will do what is reasonable to encourage them.

As for the actual sale transaction itself, we had pre-established an account with the sellers bank, and placed our funds in there. Once we agreed to the deal and shook hands, we went to the bank and had them transfer funds from our account to his, and the banks notary witnessed the receipt and deed of sale. Easy as pie.
 
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run forest run

mel you crack me up... as for 5k up front ... no deal. plenty of golf to play and your on the 2nd tee. look around sir... there everywhere.
 
As for pre-buys...

Yes, they're a good idea, but there are lots of things that either won't show up on a pre-buy or may break right afterwards. Don't count on a pre-buy as a guarantee. Be prepared to spend a few grand after purchase on a surprise or two. Happens all the time.

It's also the case that you can take an airplane to a shop for a spit-polish annual inspection, then immediately taxi it across the field to another spit-polish shop and they'll probably find something.

A rule of thumb that I use for purchases, including from companies, is that you are buying the work of a man (plural, gender, etc acknowledged). I would not buy from a man of dubious character, as that is likely to show up both in what he's selling and in how he's representing it.

When I bought my RV-8, a good friend knew the builder and knew the second owner, reporting both as being skilled and conscientious men. That conversation was my entire pre-buy. No problems found with the airplane after purchase.

Ed
 
It would appear that this is a broker. Are there any folks with experiences with brokers who could tell us if this is common? If it were me selling through a broker I would want to know that the broker is chasing sales away by demanding something that chases away anyone but people who can be taken advantage of.

I'm reminded of the Nigerian Prince email scams. They appear ridiculous at first blush but they are extremely clever. They are pre-screening for gullible people so they don't have to invest their time reeling in people who will get cold feet at the close.
 
Deposit? Never heard of this "marketing"

Is it the seller or the broker who is asking for the $5k?

Not that it matters but is the deposit refundable if no sale? How would you like to fight for your money?

Why no location for the aircraft as in "Call for location"

The G-530 is the highlight of this RV. The existing dated panel wipes that out. YMMV...

My guess, and I check the ads for BStormers TAP and Controller daily, is that it's an $80k setup at best. This considering another good point which is the IO-360 180.

A shame that it does not have CS prop.
 
Older avionics, no ADS-B, fixed pitch prop... and $5K to look at it?

Fuhgeddaboutit.


On another note, everyone seems to hate on steam gauges. Why is that? I like them, and had a Dynon go out when I was flying a light sport, so I'm a bit nervous about using only one digital attitude indicator.

I've seen a few with AFS + an extra attitude indicator? What's the preferred panel setup?
 
On another note, everyone seems to hate on steam gauges. Why is that? I like them, and had a Dynon go out when I was flying a light sport, so I'm a bit nervous about using only one digital attitude indicator.

I've seen a few with AFS + an extra attitude indicator? What's the preferred panel setup?

Nothing wrong with steam gauges other than cost, low reliability and very limited capability.

Look at the cost of a (low end) standard steam gauge install:
- CDI, $2200
- AI, $500
- Altimeter, $450
- VS, $450
- Air Speed, $260
- Turn coordinator, $500
- Vacuum system, $810
- Annunciator, $1000

Total: $5700+

For this you get no moving map, no charts, no approach overlay, no weather, no traffic, only expensive stand alone autopilot options and a 1940 vacuum system.

Steam gauges will go away because, looking with a system approach, there are cheaper, more capable and more reliable options.

All that said, I still have an analog altimeter and airspeed instruments on my panel. I am however planning to replace the altimeter with a Dynon D10A to have a very independent EFIS display to the rest of the glass. Not because it is needed, just because I can.

Carl
 
It sounds to me like a fairly typical broker sale where the broker has never even seen the plane, and the owner doesn't want tire kickers, so the broker said he would ask for a deposit before showing it.

I have brokered quite a few planes. I won't list it if it is not in my possession and it meets certain criteria. I am fairly picky, but that doesn't mean the planes I sell are perfect. I will let anybody look at them any time. I will even take them flying without a deposit. I usually want a deposit before doing a Prebuy inspection, and want to settle on a price before taking a deposit.
 
Brokers and Tax

It sounds to me like a fairly typical broker sale where the broker has never even seen the plane, and the owner doesn't want tire kickers, so the broker said he would ask for a deposit before showing it.

I have brokered quite a few planes. I won't list it if it is not in my possession and it meets certain criteria. I am fairly picky, but that doesn't mean the planes I sell are perfect. I will let anybody look at them any time. I will even take them flying without a deposit. I usually want a deposit before doing a Prebuy inspection, and want to settle on a price before taking a deposit.

Unfortunately having a broker involved is bad for residents of some states, including Arizona.

An out-of-state purchase is free of Use Tax (just like Sales tax) if it is made with a private party.

Arizona started checking past registrations and just billed a friend for a few thousand dollars. Best if you can have the broker take a sales commission from the seller and not have his/her name on any paperwork. :)
 
An out-of-state purchase is free of Use Tax (just like Sales tax) if it is made with a private party.

Unfortunately for those of us in Minnesota if you buy anything that is subject to sales tax out of state, and it has to be registered (car, boat, plane, etc.) you have to pay the tax or the difference (if you paid a lower rate) when you register.

Anyway, I'd rather deal with the owner, even if he/she was not the builder.
 
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