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How far do you fly?

Paul K

Well Known Member
How far would you fly your RV as opposed to flying commercial. I know there are a lot of factors such as time, fuel, weather, comfort, hassle, etc.

With my Cessna, the magic distance is about 600 miles or 1 tank of gas. Now keep in mind that I only have 1 VOR radio for NAV and 1 VFR GPS. So even though it is IFR certified and I have my IFR ticket, it just isn't very capable, no auto pilot etc.

My new RV7 will have it all, GRT glass, Garmin 430w, dual everything including electrical systems,(Stein doesn't know it yet but he is going to build the panel), a lot better speed, and all around better economy.

Taking all of this into account, what is the economic turning point between RV and commercial? I'm talking about run of the mill business trips and family trips, not those special planned vacation flying trips. :D

Just want to know what I have to look forward to. Can't wait!
 
I'm interested in what people have to say about this, too. From my perspective, how is spending $70k + more economical for travel than buying a whole bunch of airline tickets? That being said, I still wouldn't give up my RV if I didn't have to!

Realistically, if you were really good at leaning and "only" burned 8 gallons per hour, flying 600 miles away is still going to cost you over $110 in gas (at $4.25 per gallon, assuming you can cruise at 180 mph on an 8 gph burn). Something tells me an airline ticket will usually be cheaper.
 
For many flights, commercial air will be cheaper. Throw in the new TSA groping and that may sway people one way.
 
i can't believe one would consider comparing flying your own personal aircraft to commercial flight

are you guys sitting in the same seats that I do?? it's apples/oranges
 
Six or eight years ago, I had to attend a one-day meeting requiring travel from Jackson MS to Miami. My employer preferred & would pay for me to fly the airlines. I *drove* to stay off the airlines & away from the...never mind; I'll keep it non-political.

It's hard to put a price on avoiding what is even worse now than it was then.

Charlie
 
First off, forget economics. We all know the data - if you want to fly 150 hours per year or less, it is cheaper to rent!

There are many reasons why we plan (almost) all of our travel by RV. Assuming good weather, I can beat the airlines door to door on a trip of 1000 miles or less. Part of that is that we leave from our back yard, and if I want to go on the airline, I figure I have to leave for the big airport close to 2 hours early. On most of the inexpensive airlines, you'll change planes somewhere - or at least make stops. Don't get me wrong - we DO buy tickets (usually on Southwest). We just don't use them unless the weather is bad. We call them "contingency tickets", and you can roll the money forward every time you buy and don't use them. In the winter, we like to take a ski trip, and since carrying ski gear in an RV is sort of impractical, we will use that money then.

We routinely fly our RV's from Houston to Big Bear Lake in Southern California. It takes about seven hours, and one, maybe two fuel stops. If we took the airlines, we'd have to go to Hobby Airport to catch SWA a couple hours ahead of time. We'd change planes and wait for another in one of several places (and be subject to delays). We'd end up at Ontario, and have to rent a car to drive up the winding mountain roads to our cabin. Seven hours is seven hours, either way - but I like having the time (and experience) in my log book.

On costs - Remember that you have to divide the cost of fuel by 2 if you're flying with two people and comparing the cost to the airlines! Even if you are solo, well....you were going to be flying anyway - right? Isn't that why you own an airplane?

Our planes have been from Houston to California, Oregon, Colorado, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Washington DC, Florida - and all points in between. The comfort of going when you want, with WHAT you want is hard to put a price on.

Now, remember - even with all that glowing praise of RV travel, if you HAVE to be someplace by a given time, plan on leaving early, or having a backup airline ticket. "Get-there-itis" kills more folks than just about anything, and if we HAVE to be someplace, we are ready to leave the airplanes home. But we rarely have to.

Owning a local puddle-jumper is a great recreation. RV's - properly equipped - are some of the best traveling machines out there. Fast, long-legged, and efficient - and able to get you directly to where you want to go, rather than just to a nearby city. With an instrumen ticket and equipment, you can make most trips if you have a day's flexibility one way or the other.

And you get to meet a LOT of great people along the way!

Paul
 
PRIVATE AIRCRAFT VS AIRLINES/TSA

When it comes to the overall experience flying your own airplane has many super advantages. Even beyond the horror of the big airport and TSA. It doesn't cost much to drive to the small local airport (or large) where you can leave your auto in the hanger and be in charge of your own destiny. Going commercial involves cab to and from airport or parking fees, often significant. Today we flew from Hayward WI to Timmerman (KHYR_KMWC) in 1.3 hours. If this were possible by airline it would require many hours, transfers, and mucho dinero. We had a smooth ride on top, IFR @ 5000, maybe 1/8 inch light rime on descent into MKE area with above freezing temps under a 2600 foot overcast and visual landing - what a super flight. Even included a gorgeous sunset. How do you compare this to the typical commercial flight trial?
 
Gotta get there? Airlines, for sure. That's transportation, not flying. With the luxury of time and financial resources, my own airplane any time. I've flown all over the western states in little Cessnas. Slow, underpowered, I didn't care. It was glorious. The RV will only be better. I'll go coast to coast with it if the above criterion is met.
 
I doubt that you will find a magic number that shows a clear economic advantage on a regular basis, if ever. Airfares are not tied very closely to mileage, especially in the domestic market. I find that I can routinely make better time on trips up to 700 miles on a door to door comparison. My wife and I took a trip from our home in FL to Quebec City, Canada (1154 NM) in September. In this case is was cheaper than commercial flights that would have had at least a couple of plane changes. Additionally, we got to stop at Wings Field in Philadelphia and spend a couple of days visiting family. When you throw in the ability to utilize small airports, it is pretty difficult to make an apples to apples comparison. We go back and forth from FL to Wichita, KS a few times a year for family reasons. 972 miles and it is pretty much a dead heat on door to door time and probably costs us $100 to $125 more than commercial.
The big thing is, we go when we want to go, no stress, and it's a LOT more fun!!:D
 
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For many flights, commercial air will be cheaper. Throw in the new TSA groping and that may sway people one way.

Let's go just a few steps farther, using myself for example for a 4 day trip, 600 NM each way and renting a car in either case:

AIRLINE
R/T Ticket $350
Parking at airport $40
Fuel to drive to/from airport (160 miles at 20 MPG) $30
Total Direct cost: $420

RV-6
Fuel: 8 hr R/T at 8 GPH(+/-) @ $4.50/Gal - $288
Tie down (3 nights @ $10/night) - $30
Parking at local airport - Free
Total Direct Cost: $318

I will stipulate that this does not include the hourly ops cost of maintenance, wear & tear on the plane, etc.
There is the 3 hr R/T drive to the airport, 1 hour prior show, and dealing with the hassle with the Thousands Standing Around (TSA).
In my opinion, this is a no brainer to load up the RV, put on your favorite tunes, RELAX and enjoy!
 
All good information! I agree with all of the advantages of flying your own and of all the freedom etc. As I get closer to "retirement" and the ability to slow down a little, Get-there-itis will become less of an issue. I don't mind getting delayed in a new place to explore or having to divert to a different part of the country.

For the time being, I have to weigh the cost and time of each trip. Sometimes there is just not an option to be late and commercial is the only way. But, when the weather is good and getting there is not so fixed in time, it sure is an adventure to fly myself. I just never got over the giddy feeling of lifting off and would choose this option every time if I could.

So, it looks like 800 to 1000 miles is the breaking point between RV and commercial if we ignore every other factor other than time and cost.

Lars, I couldn't agree more!
 
Paul,

With only a 496 for nav equipment and a few charts, I have flown from Charlotte, NC to Mid-Michigan, OSH, SNF, up and down the east coast all VFR. I will do anything I can to avoid the TSA and that was before the latest BS. I can't imagine traveling now. As a law enforcement friend of mine said, "We are travelers, not criminals."
 
Mark provided an example where using his plane was cheaper than commercial. Point well taken. But I could provide plenty of cases where going commercial would be cheaper.

Example: Flying to the Caymans. No numbers because I am fairly certain I am right but it does not matter. I wanted to fly there. I wanted the experience of flying over Cuba, just as I wanted to fly to Key West, Kitty Hawk, Piney Pinecreek MN, western Washington state, Catalina Island, Death Valley, the Bahamas, Baja California or many of the other places I have been to because I have a reasonably fast and capable aircraft.

How do you place a price on that....even though I now fly less than 150 hours per year?
 
Remember that when calculating airline ticket cost, most of those prices are advance purchase, either 14 or 21 day purchases. What if you decide that next weekend you want to travel to a city a 1000 miles away? Suddenly, those ticket prices jump up quite a bit easily giving the RV the advantage.
 
I believe a lot of it depends on whether your travel is for 2 people or your destination is one of the airline hubs.

I find an 8 hour destination becomes more economical(not more fun) to fly commercially.

For example:
FL to west NC mountains, 5 hrs RT/$180(9gph,$4/gl)
We could never get into to the area commercially for $90 RT/person.

Tampa FL to Freeport Bahamas, 3 hrs RT/$108(9gph,$4/gl)
Try getting 2 RT fares for $54/person

Tampa to KeyWest is about the same.
 
The counterpoint to the cost argument is, who cares how much it costs? If cost were the only metric, who would bother to build/fly RVs? I'm not even going to try to put a price on the intangible value I obtain from flying myself. Or riding my oh-so-impractical BMW. Or driving my highly modified 40 year old Ford Bronco. Thank goodness we have the option to choose!

I may pay more and take longer to fly myself, but I'm reminded of the time I flew myself from Davis, CA to Moab, UT in a seriously underpowered Cessna 172. When we finally landed and taxied up to the terminal at Moab (about 6 weeks after 9/11, there were a bunch of confused-looking National Guardsmen there sporting weapons with empty breeches) we encountered a couple that had flown there from San Francisco. They had departed SFO about the same time that we departed Davis (Sacramento Valley in California, about 80 miles NE of SFO), and arrived at Moab about the same time we did, after making a connection via Denver. They were astounded that we had flown ourselves, on our own schedule, never mind the cost or the hassles associated with shepherding an airplane that was barely up to the task of getting there. It felt pretty darned good.
 
I find

Corvallis Oregon to Loveland Colorado takes about 5.5 to 6 hours of flying. I have done this trip half a dozen times and beaten the door to door airline time by an hour or so.

Add to that 160 kts at 7.5GPH of Autofuel ay just over $3 a gallon for two of us and its usually cheaper too.

Assuming somebody bought me the airplane of course..:)

Trouble is most of Wyoming is at 7000ft so to get to any IFR altitudes (especially over the Rockies) in Fall, winter or early spring is really not feasable..so its VFR only flying.

It does cut down the usefulness of the RV

Frank
 
Paul,

With only a 496 for nav equipment and a few charts, I have flown from Charlotte, NC to Mid-Michigan, OSH, SNF, up and down the east coast all VFR. I will do anything I can to avoid the TSA and that was before the latest BS. I can't imagine traveling now. As a law enforcement friend of mine said, "We are travelers, not criminals."

Only a 496?? Bill, I don't care who you are...thats funny, right there!
 
In the RV I don't have to pay for an extra bag. I can have all the snacks I want. I can bring my own drinks. Nobody has their hands in my pants. I can recline the seat as far as it will go (okay not at all, but if it could recline nobody would complain). There is always room for my carry on bag. I can stop for a pee and a stretch whenever I want. Chanel 9 is always on. I can see out the front window. I can have the entire can of Coke.
 
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My experience

For 15 years I flew to work every day from John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, California to El Monte. I will never again be as proficient as I was then. My employer forbid flying on busness in private planes but I did it anyway because I could. I flew over the mountains to Lancaster and rented a car when I had to go to the Phillips Lab at Edwards routinely. I flew to Lompoc and did the same for trips to Vandenburg. I flew to Santa Barbara for SRTM antenna mast reviews and testing and a couple of times I flew to San Jose for reviews at Stanford or Ames but I never even considered flying to Denver or Boulder, Colorado for a single monthly management review. That gives you some idea of the milage limits I used. At that time I was flying my Piper Archer II and flight planned at 120 kts.

Bob Axsom
 
The criterion I generally use is whether I can fly there in a day in the RV vs. commercial. I recently went to Newfoundland in a day on the airlines and no way could I even think of doing that in the RV, given the time and likely weather issues. I do routinely fly to places in the western US (Denver, SoCal, Arizona, Idaho etc.) and would hardly consider taking the airlines for a lot of the reasons already noted. That is, of course, if weather is not a factor. Fuel cost is generally the same or less than airline tickets (autogas, and I fly high and burn only 6.5 gph leaned out) for just me, and considerably cheaper if I take someone along. Lots of places one can go that don't have regular air service. And as has been already pointed out, the satisfaction is priceless!

greg
 
After finally getting my 20 hrs of dual required by the insurance company (I had no tail dragger time at all before buying my RV-8), I took one hour in the pattern by myself, then launched out of my home base (KMFR) a couple of days later to go to a reunion back in Hazleton, PA. I picked up a good friend in Portland, then on to Missoula, MT and an RON at Rapid City, SD. The next day we went to Cedar City, Iowa, then Akron, OH. We spent the night there due to some weather between us and Hazelton, but made the trip the next morning easily. After three days of fun, we went back to Rapid City to RON, then due to weather in Montana we went to Ogden, UT, Pendleton, OR and into Troutdale to drop off my friend, then it was 1.1 from there down to Medford. Round trip was about 31 hours and would have been much cheaper to do on the airlines, but that is why I bought this beautiful plane, to fly it where ever and whenever I can! It's just plane fun! :D
 
The RV10

is much cheaper to travel with than the airlines for our family. I have to pay for four tickets anytime we go somewhere. An example is Calgary to Vegas is about $700 Cnd ( Yes we pay to much up here on airlines tickets) per person. We got to vegas in just over 6 hrs flying and about $400 in fuel one way. Much cheaper than the airlines for us. And we could stay as long as we wanted. Even going across canada is cheaper as it is over 1k per person on the tube. We made that trip on less than 1k one way. Add up what it would cost rent a plane at your destination to have a look around, then it get real expensive to fly commercial.
 
I'll generally prefer my own plane for anything that is a one-hop flight, with the possible exception of destinations right next to a major airport at the extreme end of that range or when the weather is very bad. Two hops tends to start favoring the airlines, unless the destination is very far from a major hub.
 
Our plane use

We fly one of the airplanes anywhere in the USA. In Oct we were in New Hampshire early in the month, South Dakota later in the month. During the summer months, we traveled from New Hampshire to Oshkosh to Washington state in our plane. Because our son works for an airline, we could non rev but strongly prefer to fly our own airplane. We just like to fly ourshelves. We are taking an airline to Hawaii in January because we don't have the range for that trip. To each his own.
 
I fly my RV-8 whenever I can

I am a military guy and travel all around the US. I get paid 1.29 per mile for private plane, not to exceed the cost of an airline ticket. When I fly to a large hub with a cheap ticket, it is not cheaper. When I fly to a small place with an expensive connector, it is worth my money. Being stationed at Langley AFB in VA, I easily fly anywhere east of the Mississippi. I have made a few trips to San Antonio (2 hop) and my longest was to Reno (overnight at Colorado Springs).
The cost is only one factor, it is much more convienient to land at an FBO and transfer my stuff right to a rental car - some FBOs drive your rental out on the ramp and park next to your plane. If I have no possible room to be delayed, I plan an extra day for RV flying and have a commercial back-up ticket.
I will also add that for myself and my passenger, the RV flight is often the highlight of the trip (except my trips to Seymour Johnson to fly the F-15E).
My only absolute rule is that I will never put myself in a position where I must fly the RV-8, I always have a back-up plan.

Bruce "FM" Edwards
RV-8, flying, 475 hrs
 
What is your TIME worth?

I see a lot of great data when considering cost compared to the airline. I also factor in what my time is worth when making the call on the RV vs. the airlines.

I'll give you a real scenario:

On Tuesday I have an 11:00am meeting in West Chicago. My choices are:

Option 1:
Wake up at 5:00am to leave by 6:00am to drive 22 miles in traffic get to Minneapolis airport and parked by 7:00am to be through security by 7:30am for an 8:10am flight that lands at 9:20am. I’ve got my rental car at 9:45am just in time to fight Chicago traffic all the way out to the city where my meeting is arriving about 10:40am. Whew.

I have my 90 minute meeting and start heading back to the airport about 12:30pm. I booked my return flight at 5:15pm because the one earlier is at 3:05pm and with Chicago traffic I may not be able to make it to the airport, return my rental car, take the rental car shuttle and make it through security in enough time to make my flight. I make it back to the airport and sit on my hands until we depart for Minneapolis at 5:15pm arriving at about 6:30pm. I get my car and make it back in the garage by 7:15pm.

Option 2:
Wake up at 6:30am to leave by 7:30am and head to the hangar at Anoka airport. Depart in the RV-7 at 8:15am and arrive at DuPage airport in Chicago at 10:00. (DuPage is 9 miles from my meeting and O’Hare is 38 miles from my meeting) Take a taxi to my meeting and arrive at 10:30am.

I have my 90 minute meeting and head back to the airport at 12:30pm. The plane is fueled up and waiting for me to depart for Anoka airport by 1:15pm. I land at Anoka about 3:00pm, call the fuel truck, clean the bugs off and pull it in to the hangar. I’m home before 4:00pm.

Option 2 let me sleep an hour and a half later AND got me home three hours sooner. …not to mention how much less stress and more fun I had along the way!

It's VERY easy math for me when factoring time in to my savings!

- Peter

PS - Did I mention I had more fun than most people have on a Saturday? ...and it's Tuesday!!!
 
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i usually do a roundtrip between the USA and europe about once in a month and i learned to hate it. i'm not sure if my rv-7 will be able to replace the delta airlines B767 later on. the one way distance is around 5000 miles, the rv-7 would need around 300 gallons of fuel for this. so some extended range tanks here and there in the fuse and wings should do the job. i'll ask van's tech support if they have any concerns about w&b. :D

Kay
 
The following graphs are from a NASA Langley report, ?The Third Wave of Aeronautics: On-Demand Mobility.? The top graph shows that personal airplanes are never the most affordable way to travel. In general, our cars are the cheapest option for shorter trips and the airlines are most economical beyond 330 miles.

The second graph accounts for the ?value? of our time. If our time is very precious (greater than $80/hr), then personal airplanes make sense for some shorter trips.

Conclusion: It?s difficult to argue that our $100,000 airplane saves us time or money? but what the heck? it?s so much more fun!

PAV.jpg


In any event, I fly whenever possible because I find it convenient and enjoyable? simply land at the nearest airport, pull a street-legal motorcycle out of the belly pod, then ride away with a cute girl on the back? I can?t imagine a better way to travel.

IMG_5017.jpg
 
Nice bike,

I am thinhing of adapting a Honda monkey bike for the RV6. I can use an alloy frame and get rid of useless stuff like indicators (flashers). People use them in London for car hire firms and put them in the boot of cars, so should fit ( I have checked).
 
Current, Real-world Example

OK, so Louise and I are sitting in Minnesota for Thanksgiving with my family. We came up on Tuesday from Houston, and the weather was great all the way. Weather on Monday and Wednesday up in Minnesota and Iowa was predicted (and turned out to be) very nasty for flying, driving, etc. We plan to return on the weekend, and the forecasts are showing good Wx along the route - but windy on Sunday.

So, how did we come? We DROVE! In this case, it was very important to be here, the travel window was small, we both hate riding airlines (ESPECIALLY during holidays) our regular dog-sitters are traveling...and we like to get the two Huskies (the kind with fur, not wings) up to the cold country for at least a few days each winter - we feel we owe it to them for making them live on the gulf coast with a permanent fur coat....The Honda Civic gets unreal mileage, the roads are good, the drive is 19 hours, so we each have to drive less than ten, and we go straight through, so the night time is not "wasted". It works out fine.

Would I rather be sitting here with the Valkyrie or Mikey out at the airport? Sure! But then the dogs would be in Houston, rather than at the Canine Country Club outside of the Cities, we'd be hawking return weather (we both HAVE to be back on Monday morning), and we'd be looking at a freezing cold return flight in airplanes which have not been optimized for arctic conditions. In this case, the highway just made sense, even though the weather turned out flyable . No two cases are alike - the best thing is having options!

Like the NASA study indicates, you could rarely make the argument based on economics alone. We aviate becasue we WANT to aviate!

Paul
 
I'm amused that it took a NASA study to come up with some fancy charts to determine that we have to want to fly, without taking our shoes off, for it to make personal economic sense :).
 
It's too bad airplanes cost so much. I'm not going to provide any support at the moment, but it is my belief that if the gov't would stay away from choking GA, a good RV-style factory built and backed airplane should cost no more than about $35-$40K retail and run on fuel that is available at mogas prices. Also, if it were this available, airports and hanger space would be plentiful.

Can you imagine the products that would be available for safe economical flight if airplanes were as plentiful as they would be if they cost that much off of the factory floor! Most of you will likely think I am insane, but still, that is the way I believe it should be, and would be if it were not for the meddling of organizations that are afraid of the picture that I just painted. I apologize in advance if this takes the subject off topic.

Tim
 
I'd love to take my RV on a business trip, we have an office in Tucson which I expect would be a nice two-day flight from Vancouver (BC) (but I haven't looked). Trips to the Tucson office are usually for the week, so flying down saturday/sunday and back the following saturday/sunday would be great.

The only real roadblock to doing that, though, is me. I'm not IFR certified, so i'm highly weather-restricted. And since booking commercial flights needs to be done a few weeks in advance, well before I could commit to making the same flight my RV, i'm pretty much forced to choose commercial because it's a guaranteed (well, as much as possible) option.
 
Go RV

Although coincidental, every time I fly commercially, it never seems to fail that I catch a cold.

I have yet to catch a cold after a trip in my RV. I've never gotten food poisoning from a trip in my RV but did after a commercial flight. I've never listened to a baby scream due to an ear infection in my RV.

Miss a day or two of work because you're sick and all arguments seem to go out the window.

Besides that, I have yet to be bored when I go RV. I also get the chance to maximize time with family and go on MY schedule.

I also don't lose as many vacation days by taking the best travel deals and have spent less money on hotels because of scheduling.

Taking all cost into consideration, unless I'm going across the country several thousand miles, the RV is less expensive.
 
For me, I draw the line when I go to Australia. Airline is OK to Australia. Otherwise, in CONUS, RV-x is it for me!;):D

(A bit of tongue-in-cheek, but you get the drift.):p
 
Ejector needed.

Not coincidental. Compressing and conditioning air costs fuel. Doing it is minimised by design, moreso on the newest aircraft, air recirculation is the preference. I have yet to see a comercial filter that will deal with the snotty guy in the next seat as well as the James Bond button I am installing on my stick :eek:

Although coincidental, every time I fly commercially, it never seems to fail that I catch a cold.

I have yet to catch a cold after a trip in my RV. I've never gotten food poisoning from a trip in my RV but did after a commercial flight. I've never listened to a baby scream due to an ear infection in my RV.

Miss a day or two of work because you're sick and all arguments seem to go out the window.

Besides that, I have yet to be bored when I go RV. I also get the chance to maximize time with family and go on MY schedule.

I also don't lose as many vacation days by taking the best travel deals and have spent less money on hotels because of scheduling.

Taking all cost into consideration, unless I'm going across the country several thousand miles, the RV is less expensive.
 
Substituting the RV experience for commercial travel can not be a factor in deciding to go this route. There are too many days (and nights) when it is totally impractical to do so and that' s when lives are in jeopardy. It just won't work when you have to be somewhere.

Aside from all that, commercial travel has become such a pain in the butt, some are bound to factor it in and sometimes it makes good sense to do so. But do be careful doing it.

I will never forget the night coming into JFK in a warm comfortable well equipped B707 when a Cherokee out over the Atlantic on V4 was icing up. He was going down and all ATC could do was vector him toward Long Island. The ceiling was about 300'. And then all was silent. The next morning on the news it was reported a light airplane had landed on a beach the night before. The pilot was very lucky to say the least.

Five or six years ago a RV-6A iced up flying by St. Louis going to Oklahoma for the holidays. It was forced down and ended up in a snow covered field. The pilot's wife and a small child strapped down in the bag area were all OK. It too was a very good ending to what could have been not so good.

First hand knowledge of such events makes one rather ultra conservative with regard to the transportation capabilities of a small airplane. There are things you can plan on doing but there are many you can not do safely. Being stuck in inappropriate weather is a heck of a way to die and there are lots of weather situations where these machines are totally out of their league. That's why the RV experience can not be considered a reliable mode of transportation, especially for holiday travel where most people are on a schedule of some sort.
 
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