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Have you flown an RV or Experimental? "Oh, God No!"

JonathanCook

Well Known Member
I talked to a career pilot that worked for and sold singles and twins for one of the US manufactures for almost 40 years. Before that he flew in Vietnam and received the Distinguished Flying Cross. When I asked him if he had ever flown an RV or Experimental his answer was a concerned/frightened, "Oh, God No!" What needs to happed for RV's to be embraced by all of the flying community. No one would ever respond this way to a 172.
 
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Let the world be

The numbers show that RV's are well liked by those who have an interest in small, fast and reliable homebuilt aircraft.

Bob Axsom
 
Without fail I find that some number of career factory built airplane pilots view experimental aircraft builders / pilots they same way one might view motercycle drag racers, skydivers, fire eaters, etc. Crazy and dangerous.

Don't know why - uninformed, I guess. I actually had a skydiver tell me one time that my dad's Long EZ was a deathtrap. They he took off in a 40 year old striped down King Air and jumped out at 14,000 feet. Perceptions, I guess.

Truth is, the risk associated with fire eating and experimental airplane flying depends largely on the person participating in the activity - not the activity itself.

Just shows that we need to always be aware of perceptions and doour best to present our best side to the public. Fly carefully and professionally and welcome curiosity whenever possible.
 
If the gentleman flew in Vietnam it put him in his late 50's, early 60's. For all of his flying, I doubt that he has had much contact with the world of high performance kit planes and is still relying on the perceptions prevalent in the 60's and 70's, that homebuilt airplanes were dangerous. I agree with others on this web who have described such soles as misinformed. I would imagine there are a lot of experienced pilots on this web site who thought the same thing at one time until a gracious RV builder/pilot showed them what they were missing. If we all continue to do so eventually the number of such misinformed pilots will be few and far between.

For the record, as a skydiver (D, I, JM, FB) I can attest that I have jumped from many a plane I was glad to be out of at altitude. My RV is on whole a much better built and maintained than a jump plane (i.e. no duct tape). I have jumped out of 2 planes that a week later crashed. Timing is everything.
 
I'm not surprised...

...we have to remember that there are plenty of "aviation professionals" that are not aviation (or experimental aviation) enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that, just different motivations. To some, it is just a job. I have flown with plenty of airline pilots that would ask me to identify a GA airplane that taxied by. "Um, it is a 182." In the worst case you would then get a diatribe about not wanting to fly "little" airplanes. As long as they did their job, I ignored it. Sure was more fun to fly with an enthusiast though. :D

John Clark ATP, CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Without fail I find that some number of career factory built airplane pilots view experimental aircraft builders / pilots they same way one might view motercycle drag racers, skydivers, fire eaters, etc. Crazy and dangerous.

Don't know why - uninformed, I guess.

He could also have witnessed a pilot in an experimental plane doing something very stupid. We can't just sit back and pretend that doesn't happen, especially with higher performance homebuilts.
 
...we have to remember that there are plenty of "aviation professionals" that are not aviation (or experimental aviation) enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that, just different motivations. To some, it is just a job. I have flown with plenty of airline pilots that would ask me to identify a GA airplane that taxied by. "Um, it is a 182." In the worst case you would then get a diatribe about not wanting to fly "little" airplanes. As long as they did their job, I ignored it. Sure was more fun to fly with an enthusiast though. :D

John Clark ATP, CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA



JC--

I thought YOU flew the "little" airplanes?!?!? :eek::D

Sorry buddy, it was just hanging there like a high curve ball...


Joe
 
For what it's worth, today my back seat was occupied by a Navy pilot who flew in Vietnam and also flew for the airlines for a short time after the war. He couldn't stop complimenting the design and the work that I did building it.

I've come across only a few that had that kind of attitude. I would hope that these people could be educated on the reality of home built aircraft.
 
A few years ago I went to the plant with a buddy to inspect his new Columbia 350. It was an eye-opener. Maybe I was expecting too much from a "state-of-the-art" certified composite airplane facility, but a close look found a lot of fit and finish issues.

Fact of life...people working by the clock will never build as well as a dedicated guy building for fun.
 
Ouch!

Fact of life...people working by the clock will never build as well as a dedicated guy building for fun.

While I respect your work as shown in this forum it is hard to let that pass without comment. Workmanship and pride in what a worker is doing has nothing to do with whether he or she is "on the clock." Early in my aerospace career working in production as a union member of District 9 IAM I never met a aircraft production worker that was not proud of his or her work or was exempt from standards and controls to assure acceptable quality regardless of individual worker deficiencies. The level of quality and reliability in individual homebuilt airplanes are generally good but there tends to be peaks and valleys with in each airplane consistent with the builder's education, experience and interest. Some are perfect specimens and some are shoddy examples of workmanship that would never pass production inspection or testing. The idea that quality can be assured by an independent assessment after final assembly is simply not valid.

Bob Axsom
 
... I never met a aircraft production worker that was not proud of his or her work or was exempt from standards and controls to assure acceptable quality regardless of individual worker deficiencies. The level of quality and reliability in individual homebuilt airplanes are generally good but there tends to be peaks and valleys......Some are perfect specimens and some are shoddy examples of workmanship...


Excellent points Bob, and a little thought says you're right. Standards and controls are the backbone of certified aircraft consistency. They may not be perfect, but they're all good enough.

So how do we raise all homebuilts to that standard?
 
While I respect your work as shown in this forum it is hard to let that pass without comment. Workmanship and pride in what a worker is doing has nothing to do with whether he or she is "on the clock." Early in my aerospace career working in production as a union member of District 9 IAM I never met a aircraft production worker that was not proud of his or her work or was exempt from standards and controls to assure acceptable quality regardless of individual worker deficiencies. The level of quality and reliability in individual homebuilt airplanes are generally good but there tends to be peaks and valleys with in each airplane consistent with the builder's education, experience and interest. Some are perfect specimens and some are shoddy examples of workmanship that would never pass production inspection or testing. The idea that quality can be assured by an independent assessment after final assembly is simply not valid. Bob Axsom
Bob, you can be sure I am in complete agreement with your observation. Certainly, any of us can cherry pick an exceptional homebuilt example, compare it to any given production plane and by direct comparison decree it better in overall quality of fit and finish and be right but you and I know this very well.....that is not the real world norm by any stretch of the imagination. As you know from your own production experience with constant government and military oversight, virtually every task that any worker does on any airplane must first pass certification. This usually means the worker must complete classroom and lab training of some sort and some of it on a periodic basis just to make sure no bad habits are developed. If you drill any hole, you are first trained to maintain very close tolerances. If you shoot any rivet, you are trained first, if you install a hi-loc, huck bolt, taper loc or cold work holes....you are trained. Even though I was extremely familiar with proseal, I still had to attend 3 full days of proseal classroom and lab training simply because the customer demanded all personnel working on the C-17 program be retrained. The Navy and Air Force both have their own autonomous offices nearby and constantly review what is done on the shop floor. In the production world you and I came from, things like clenched rivets, undershot, overshot rivets, smilies, short e.d, gaps, scratches, etc. were NEVER tolerated. To tell any supervisor that you did not want to drill out that bad rivet because you would cause more damage to a structure by removing and replacing it was laughable and to invite being escorted off company property permanently. That is why the motto displayed everywhere has always been..."DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME"....and I'm sure you remember that one. Compare that motto to the famous one hear here so often and is almost always encouraged by those who have been trained in nothing........."BUILD ON!" I am reasonably sure that any manufacturer who assembles a "certified" airplane must meet very similiar standards covering all the basics from training, tooling, materials and methods and must employ a quality control department that in itself must include (but is not limited to) a calibration lab for periodic inspection of all precision equipment and of course floor inspectors not subject to the influence of production foremen. People being only human, such a tension is quite necessary. Certainly, not much of this stuff is seen in your average residential garage where the majority of homebuilt aircraft are born.
 
...we have to remember that there are plenty of "aviation professionals" that are not aviation (or experimental aviation) enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that, just different motivations. To some, it is just a job. I have flown with plenty of airline pilots that would ask me to identify a GA airplane that taxied by. "Um, it is a 182." In the worst case you would then get a diatribe about not wanting to fly "little" airplanes. As long as they did their job, I ignored it. Sure was more fun to fly with an enthusiast though. :D

Amen to that.. about a year ago I got lucky enough to get an aerobatic lesson in a Pitts.. so I call my good buddy who is an F-18 jockey to tell him about it and there was dead silence on the other end.. I think to myself, "Does he even know what a Pitts is?"... so I say "You don't even know what a Pitts is do you??"... he just starts laughing and says, "No, I was gonna try and figure it out as the story goes on, but I guess you caught me!"
 
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I talked to a career pilot that worked for and sold singles and twins for one of the US manufactures for almost 40 years. Before that he flew in Vietnam and received the Distinguished Flying Cross. When I asked him if he had ever flown an RV or Experimental his answer was a concerned/frightened, "Oh, God No!" What needs to happed for RV's to be embraced by all of the flying community. No one would ever respond this way to a 172.

We probably need to stop crashing them. Yes the RV is possibly the safest experimental of all time, flight hour to fatality... but compared to a 172? I watch airplanes land for a living (Air Traffic Control) and I must say, if you landed a RV half as sloppy as most pilots land 172's, there would be nothing left. RV's gain performance the same way any other airplane does, but shaving at safety tolerance/margins. The less tolerant the airplane, the more accidents. The more accidents, the worse the reputation.

It doesn't help that almost ALL experimentals are called "RV's" by the certified world in general now.

On a side note, I've been very impressed with the RV-10. I watched a pilot land a -10 ON the nosegear and porpoise twice. Didn't seem to mind it a bit. I thought I was gonna be rolling the trucks on that one. A -7a would've been on it's back or nose for sure.
 
Find someone to give him a ride. Early in the day when the air is calm. Let him fly it and feel the great flying qualities. Most likely he will be hooked.

Plus cutting our accident/fatality rate would help too.
 
YUP

On a side note, I've been very impressed with the RV-10. I watched a pilot land a -10 ON the nosegear and porpoise twice. Didn't seem to mind it a bit. I thought I was gonna be rolling the trucks on that one. A -7a would've been on it's back or nose for sure.


Amen..When I took my acro course with Steve Wolf I was explaining about how fragile the 7a NG is..He pointed out that I was his only student who didn't ever let the nosewheel of his Zlin we were flying touch ground until it couldn't hold it of anymore.

Good habits die hard as we all know bad ones do too.

Frank 7a
 
My mother & dad, both in their upper 70's now, own a 172, always had this perception that homebuilts were more evil and dangerous than anything on earth, or in the air. When they found out my brother was building an RV9a they were beside themselves. When Mitchell (my brother) got finished with it, he talked my dad into going for a ride. He had the famous RV grin on his face when they returned. We then started pointing out little differences on the RV as opposed to his 172 and showed him the plans and instructions. He come away with a different point view and now, they both pretty much jump at the opportunity to ride in the RV.
Here again, we have to educate folks. Offer to take them for rides. Never say "watch this" and then do something stupid. How many atta boys does it take to cover up one Oh $hit?

Marshall Alexander
 
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