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Experience for 1st flight?

P

prkaye

Well Known Member
Now that I'm thinking my first flight may be less than a year away, I'm starting to get really nervous about it. However, I'd *really* like to do it myself. I'll have about 200 hrs by then, most in the Katana, but more recently a bunch in the 172. I'd really mastered the Katana, and every landing was a greaser, but now I'm really finding it tough getting a handle on landing the 172 smoothly. This has made me nervous about what the first flight in my -9A will be like. I will probably get some "transition training", but I wonder will this be enough.
Questions:

1) how many other low-time (~200hrs) pilots out there have done the first flight in a -9A themselves? Am I being foolish?

2) compared to a Katana or C172, how hard/easy is it to land the -9A safely? How different is it from those aircraft, and how much getting-used-to does it take to do well?
 
prkaye said:
...Questions:

1) how many other low-time (~200hrs) pilots out there have done the first flight in a -9A themselves? Am I being foolish?
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Only you can answer that questions. Ask you wife and kids, they might have something to say.

prkaye said:
2) compared to a Katana or C172, how hard/easy is it to land the -9A safely? How different is it from those aircraft, and how much getting-used-to does it take to do well?
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I've never flown a Katana but compared to a Cessna, the -9 is easier to land. I think there might be a few reasons for this; the RV is more responsive but not overly so. Thus you can place it anywhere you want and you don't have to wait for the RV to react to a control input. Also, the -9 floats in ground effect a bit more than the 172. When you get into that ground effect, just hold it there, with the nose up. When the speed bleeds off, the mains will touch down as pretty as you please.

All this talk about slowing the RV down is BS, just plan way ahead. Get it slowed and down to pattern altitude three miles before entering the pattern and everything will work out just fine. If you find yourself high and/or fast when entering the pattern, go out and get to those planned numbers and re-enter the pattern. Remember, a good landing is the result of a good approach and a good approach is the result of good preparation.
 
You will probably be able to handle your first flight with no problems. Many people do. HOWEVER, as an EAA Flight Advisor, and (somewhat) experienced test pilot, I can only recommend that you have an experienced RV pilot do the first flight.
One major reason, other than your experience, is your emotional connection with your airplane. On the first flight of any airplane, actually flying the plane should be second nature, so that if a problem occurs, maximum concentration will be applied to the problem itself.
 
Spend some time in transition training

I can't speak to the Katana but I had about 130 hours in 172's and 152's. Now the big part is that the last five hours were with a Pierre Smith, a great transition trainer, in his RV-6A. Honestly, without the transition training I don't think the outcome would have been the great experience it turned out to be. There were butterflies in my stomach sitting there at the end of the runway but I felt I was ready, so N14SE and I just went flying.

Do your self a great favour and get five hours or so with one of the transition trainers so you can decide if you are comfortable enough to do the first flight.

http://vansairforce.net/transition_training.htm
 
Get a test pilot. It might go perfectly fine but.....it might not. Let somebody who has a ton of hours in RV's do it for you. You will sleep much better.
 
Phil:
Mel's advice is spot on. While I can't offer flight instruction in my 9A (I don't have a letter of deviation from FSDO), I can offer you a ride and allow you to handle the controls. That may help you to make an informed decision. Just let me know in advance whenever you might be in SE Michigan. I'm based at KPTK (this is also an airport of entry, if you fly in).
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
It's not just about the flying....

Mel said:
You will probably be able to handle your first flight with no problems. Many people do. HOWEVER, as an EAA Flight Advisor, and (somewhat) experienced test pilot, I can only recommend that you have an experienced RV pilot do the first flight.
One major reason, other than your experience, is your emotional connection with your airplane. On the first flight of any airplane, actually flying the plane should be second nature, so that if a problem occurs, maximum concentration will be applied to the problem itself.
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I'm with Mel (as a Flight Advisor myself). Folks with low time worry most about "will I be able to fly it?", or "will I be able to land it?" - but frankly, those issues should not be in your head. If they are, you definitely need type-specific transition training. Few people actually crash their homebuilt on first flight because they couldn't handle the airplane (but it DOES happen). More often, you will run into an anomaly of some sort - it might be trivial, it might actually be significant - that you'll have to handle properly. Ignore, or React? And it's flying experience that is going to help you with that. You don't want to be 200 feet above the runway with the trees coming up and alarms going off in a new airplane if you haven't experienced that before.

You will get to make a first flight in your airplane. It just might not be the airplane's first flight. But it will produce an incredible grin, just the same.

Things to think about,

Paul
 
N941WR said:
All this talk about slowing the RV down is BS, just plan way ahead. Get it slowed and down to pattern altitude three miles before entering the pattern and everything will work out just fine.
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Three miles??? :)

At three miles I'm following a canyon contour at -2000 fpm!!!! :D

But..............I can still get her slowed down in plenty of time... :)

L.Adamson --- RV6A 0360/CS
 
Hi Phil,

I would like to reinforce what has already been said above. I have done numerous first flights for other folks. Usually they are a non-event and routine. The things that have cropped up are an additional work load but manageable for an experienced RV pilot because, like someone else said, flying the airplane is second nature. However these same issues could be a major distraction to a pilot not thoroughly familiar with the RV. Some of the things I have encountered were: No COM, no airspeed, over reving engine on take off, rapidly raising CHT's, very heavy wing, leaking carburetor etc.. None of these issues were jeopardized the outcome of the test flight because flying the airplane is second nature to me and I could deal with them without being overwhelmed by the work load. An additional advantage the experienced RV pilot has is familiarity with how the airplane should behave and therefore the ability to immediately recognize discrepancies. While I am not going to dissuade you from doing your first flight, I am strongly recommending that you get an RV9 check-out and be thoroughly familiar with it's flying and performance characteristics if you decide to do it.

Martin Sutter
building and flying RV's since 1988
EAA Tech Counselor
 
first flight

Hopefully, my -9A will be ready for a first flight by about next March or April.

I'm a student pilot with about 53 hrs in a DA20. Getting ready for my check ride.

By the time my RV is ready, I should have, maybe, 65 or 70 hrs.

How's that for "low time"?

After putting about 1500 hrs and lots of $$$ in this plane, I'd love to be the
first to fly it. But..........

I think I'll have my flight instructor, whose been helping in the shop lately, do the first flight.

He has about 7000 hrs in a bunch of different planes and would be much
better equipped to handle something unexpected.

After the first couple of flights he will transition me into it and we will both
fly off the first 40 hrs.

That's the plan anyway.

Dave
-9A finish kit
 
Phil, if it helps, consider this. For my last three projects, two were first flown by someone else and I did one. Mel and Paul are right. I could have flown all three (and did shortly thereafter), but for two of them I had qualified friends available with far more experience in the particular type.

It's just a matter of stacking the deck toward a successful outcome.
 
After the first couple of flights he will transition me into it and we will both
fly off the first 40 hrs.
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I'm not sure if that would be legal in Canada. We're not allowed to take any passengers during the first 20 hours, so I'm not sure, but I think legally the test pilot would be required to fly the full 20 hours. That's part of what's making me want to do my first flight myself... I don't want to watch someone else fly my plane for 20 hours!!
 
IMO, the 172 is rather easy to land, so you'll want to get a handle on that first. In my experience, the 9A can actually "fall through" the flare easier than a 172 if you let the speed bleed off too fast. However, we were flying a 9A with a constant speed prop..........that will decelerate faster than a fixed pitch. Just make sure you're close to the runway in ground effect, as airspeed diminishes. The 9A is more forgiving than my 6A, though. It also lands 10 mph slower than my 6A.

The big key............. is transition training. A friend of mine (and EAA president) kept after me to fly, fly, fly in his 9A. Between that, and some
hours I had in other 6A's; I did my own first flight. I too had anxiety, but followed the first flight with a cross-country two hours later, along with the 9A as a chase plane. The cross-country followed freeway (on a Sunday) and desert, which was actually a better test environment than my airport surrounded by subdivisions.

To me; myself performing the first flight was important. But you have to be flying other RV's or higher performance aircraft first. Jumping straight from a Cessna 172 is not a good idea. The RV's will fly much faster in the patterns than 172's and you must get use to spacing, etc.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
 
I'm right in line with Mel's advice but I'm going to add that, if you insist on doing your own first flight, get RV transition training and a little experience. That way, if something does go wrong, you will be better prepared to keep your RV in its flight envelope while you troubleshoot/land safely.

For Dave: I think you are being wise but you might also want to see if there's an experienced RV-driver around to do the first flight. Remember, the first flight (and the Phase I period, actually) is when problems are most likely to happen and you want the test pilot to be as well prepared as possible. Experience in type, in my opinion, trumps general experience every time. Brad Ransom was my test pilot; he flew off the first 10 hours or so until my new engine seated the rings. Meanwhile, he also got me up to speed in his own RV-6A. I was glad he did the flying because he had an inadvertent open canopy (tip-up) on the 3rd or 4th flight which he handled expertly. Just something to think about.
 
prkaye said:
I'm not sure if that would be legal in Canada. We're not allowed to take any passengers during the first 20 hours, so I'm not sure, but I think legally the test pilot would be required to fly the full 20 hours. That's part of what's making me want to do my first flight myself... I don't want to watch someone else fly my plane for 20 hours!!
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Hey Phil

I think the law here in Canada is that the first 5 hours have to be flown by someone with at least 100 hrs PIC in aircraft of the same class. After that, you are good for the remaining 20 yourself.

You can take another person on a test flight if they are part of the flight crew. For example, you could take another pilot/instructor up with you to monitor engine parameters or some other thing while you do the flying. They could also act as ballast for gross weight performance (as I did for Alfio).

Cheers
 
Your Call

Over the course of a single day and with little more than lots of C-150 time in my logbook, I received an RV-6A signoff in 4 hours from Ben Johnson an instructor endorsed by Van's and in doing so just barely satisfied AIG insurance requirements. That transition training was absolutely essential as it prepared me for the major differences in performance and handling as compared to a C-150. Nevertheless, it was an easy transition for this relatively unskilled private pilot to make. A few days later when the weather conditions were ideal, I made the first flight in "Darla!" from our less than ideal airport (M71) with its narrow 50' wide runway, obstructions on both ends, frequent turbulence due to trees, and a significant runway grade with 30' elevation difference as measured from one end of its 3200' length to the other. Unless wind conditions dictate otherwise, we locals routinely take off (rnwy 9) going downhill and land (rnwy 27) going uphill.

jai51e.jpg


For me, the major challenge was learning to slow down...understandable since as I mentioned before that almost of my previous time was logged in a C-150. Still, as Bill so accurately stated in his post, all this talk about not being able to slow an RV down, especially one with a fixed pitch prop is pure unadulterated BS. I can easily cross directly over the field at 180-200 MPH and slow my RV down in more than enough time to land without ever ranging farther than 1.5 miles from the center of the airport. It is a skill, learned like any other skill.

I've since flown the RV-9A and comparatively speaking, find it significantly more stable and even more forgiving than a -6A. That is why it was designed in the first place. That said, I do recall one -9A being totalled upon (perceived) urgent landing because the pilot was unduly distracted and lost control of the aircraft when he realized the canopy was unlatched. If he had only known beforehand that what he was really dealing with was a non-event.

In retrospect....should I have let someone else do the maiden flight? Yes. Did I? No. While everyone is different, as the builder you enjoy the unique option to decide whether you or another more experienced pilot should conduct the first flight. Prudence says you probably should. The chance of your success is likely however KNOW THIS: There are few guarantees handed to us in this life and expecting complete and total assurance when it comes to successfully completing the first flight in an amateur built airplane is at best... to engage in wishful thinking.
 
L.Adamson said:
Three miles??? :)

At three miles I'm following a canyon contour at -2000 fpm!!!! :D

But..............I can still get her slowed down in plenty of time... :)

L.Adamson --- RV6A 0360/CS
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Well, then that airport wouldn't be a good place for a first flight, whould it?
 
Certainly if most of your time is in high winged Cessnas, you NEED a number of hours in something similar to an RV like Grumman or better yet an RV.

RVs are as easy to fly as a Grumman if you fly the numbers and have no major problems. If there are problems as others have pointed out, there is no substitute for experience however.

As mentioned previously, you need at least 100 hours PIC to do the initial test flying in Canada.

My advice is obey the spirit of the regulations and fly the test flights solo. No need to risk two lives on initial flights with no good reason in these simple aircraft. Better to have one experienced/ current pilot at the controls.

If you decide to do the test flying yourself, have a written plan for each flight on test cards, don't deviate, don't make the first flight over 20 minutes long, have emergency procedures and speeds locked in your brain and a solid plan for each phase of flight. You will be processing a lot of info the first time and it needs to be second nature. I recommend a helmet, just in case...
 
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Phil,

If you have only flown two airplanes, one of which you have "mastered", and the other which you are having a problem with, then I would suggest that doing you own first flight might be ill-advised. I don't think the 200 hours is a big problem. However, being able to go from one plane with which you are comfortable to a different plane and getting comfortable in a relatively short time is important.

If there is any doubt whatsoever, then you are better off letting someone with experience do the first flight. Oh, and transition training should be considered a requirement.

Cheers,
Tracy.
 
If you are comfortable taking your RV up the altitude, pulling the mixture and dead-sticking the airplane, then you are the right pilot for the job. If you are not comfortable doing this maneuver I would find someone else.

Put it this way. I had the same dilemma when I finished my airplane. I had ~150 hours TT, about 20 of which was in RV-6As. You have to look at the first flight objectively. So if you were an outsider looking in and you had no emotional attachment to the airplane, who would you want to fly the airplane? Would it be you, a 200 hour pilot, or a pilot with 2000+ RV hours? That was the choice I had to make, and in retrospect it was a wise choice.

There will always be those folks that will say things like "oh, well I would never leave a fitting lose like Jamie did". Whatever. Those fittings were all torque sealed, etc. Somehow, some way I simply missed that one and put torque seal on it telling me later on that it had been torqued.
 
1st Flight: Points to Consider

I hired Mike Stewart to fly my RV 7A. He does quite a bit of first flights in the southeast. It was a great decision as the engine quit and Mike had the experience to get the plane back on the runway. As Mike will tell you, it is smart to hire someone qualified to be a "test pilot" as he is not emotionally involved. When problems arise, the builder can be slow to react because after building for x years, it is hard to grasp that the plane is not working as planned. Mike anticipated these problems and reacts accordingly. When I was up doing transition training with Pierre Smith, he told me of another incident whereby Mike shut the engine down and deadsticked back to the runway. The oil line to the prop controller came loose and by shutting down the engine, saved it from being junk as all the oil was pumped out the loose connection. Another benefit of Mike, he does a very competent quality control inspection, and he caught things the DAR did not see.

The only down side is Mike is very busy so you have to plan accordingly. He needs quite a bit of lead time, and sometimes things get backed up. The question is not whether you are ready to fly your plane, but for a realitively small sum, can you hire someone very qualified to do it.

S S Anderson
RV 7A Flying
Lafayette, La.
 
RE:First flight decision

Hi Phil

I asked a similiar question like yours. The usual suspects answered me as they have answered you. It would appear that most are for a hired gun to fly the first time......

Well, I was going to fly that first flight come xxxx or high water (here in the desert SW Utah water is always in short supply). But in walks to good friends with high time in experimentals.....and commerical aircraft (737, 767 plus)....
They gently (Frank, wake up and smell the coffee) brought me to the realization that my skill set, mental condition, and time in type was just not up to the first flight task.

After a few weeks of fretful consideration I made the very WISE decision to have my good friend and GREAT pilot do the honors.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=45686

Now for me it was really fun, exciting, and enjoyable to see 4 years 10 months and 1 days efforts fly.

Three considerations brought me to my decision to have a test pilot.
One....Low time pilot realizing landing the plane isn't the real issue...but the skill set to handle any and all EMERGENCIES.
Two...Would I make the right mental calculations in an emergency to save me or the plane. If you think of the plane it might just kill ya in the process.
Three...I felt the few hours that I have in a 7A wouldn't cut it to get the job done.

So there you have it.

Phil you won't regret following the advice of most of the folks that have suggested that someone else should do the honors. I sure don't.......

Now I can't wait to hear about your first flight report......

Frank @ 1L8 and SGU ...RV7A... Phase 1 10 plus on the hobbs
 
Are there liability issues with having someone else do the first flight? Legal liability aside... One of my fears with having someone else do the first flight is that something bad might happen to them. I understand that the other pilot is choosing to do the first flight on their on free will. But, if something went wrong I would feel pretty badly. I almost feel that it is unethical to ask someone else to take a risk I am not willing to take. Logically, I know this is not true (again, free will). However, emotionally I am uneasy about this.
 
People make the difference

apatti said:
I almost feel that it is unethical to ask someone else to take a risk I am not willing to take. Logically, I know this is not true (again, free will). However, emotionally I am uneasy about this.
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Tony, you're into the land of RV'rs now. Long before the first flight, you will have a pre-inspection and then inspection and finaly an experienced test-pilot/RVr will look over the plane again. It is reversal of fortunes of sorts that- when you start flying these machines will you meet the vast interest and network of RV'rs out there. But when you get the wings on and plane in the hanger- you will find out adout the local RV network :D
 
RE:Insurance

apatti said:
Are there liability issues with having someone else do the first flight? Legal liability aside... One of my fears with having someone else do the first flight is that something bad might happen to them. I understand that the other pilot is choosing to do the first flight on their on free will. But, if something went wrong I would feel pretty badly. I almost feel that it is unethical to ask someone else to take a risk I am not willing to take. Logically, I know this is not true (again, free will). However, emotionally I am uneasy about this.
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Tony

Good point. My test pilot is on my insurance. This wouldn't protect my estate from legal stuff if the worst had happened. I relied on a proven aircraft/engine/prop/instrument combo and check...double check....thripppppple check...you get the idea....careful static engine starts with careful inspection.

Frank @ 1L8 and SGU ...RV7A... Phase 1 @ 10 on the hobbs
 
Not so much skill, just a limitation...

Rick6a said:
For me, the major challenge was learning to slow down...understandable since as I mentioned before that almost of my previous time was logged in a C-150. Still, as Bill so accurately stated in his post, all this talk about not being able to slow an RV down, especially one with a fixed pitch prop is pure unadulterated BS. I can easily cross directly over the field at 180-200 MPH and slow my RV down in more than enough time to land without ever ranging farther than 1.5 miles from the center of the airport. It is a skill, learned like any other skill.
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It's not so much a skill...................but more of a limitation.. Kind of like jets versus props; motorcycle versus a bicycle.

When you get your RV8 with it's C/S flying; I'm betting you'll change your thoughts.. :)

Of course, with my C/S prop, I can get to the base turn at 180 - 200 mph, if I really wanted to! Not to mention climb out faster, and being much happier with my decision .... all around! :D

L.Adamson --- RV6A (flying)
 
So it sounds like the big limitation for a low-time pilot is not being able to handle emergencies. Since I'm going to be flying my RV at some point, for many years to come, perhaps this is a skill I should develop. I mean, it's not necessarily the first flight when something will go wrong. When I was a glider pilot, it was very common for instructors to pull the tow-release unexpectedly on you, and you'd have to sort it out... it added that element of surprise.
What about getting an instructor to give me some training on dealing with emergencies? Simulate all sorts of things? To what extent can emergencies be simulated?
 
Phil,
A good RV transition instructor will spend quite a bit of time simulating emergencies. That's part of the deal. I am in the same boat that you are in since I am a low time pilot. I choose to do my first flight because as someone stated before- I wouldn't want to hurt anyone other than myself if I did something stupid during the build...

What to do to help prepare yourself?
1) Spend much time sitting in your new cockpit playing "what if?" . Run through what you will do for each failure that you can come up with. Think in terms of leaving yourself "outs" as your first flight progresses.
Example- If the engine quits at 300', your plan is to land straight ahead most likely. Reinforce this plan as you visualize the area around your airport from another airplane. Go to Google Earth and pull up imagery of your field and plot some emergency landing zones. Determine how high you need to be in order to reach each field. Each one of these fields can become an "out" as you progress around your local Ops area. I view these fields as life boats :)
2) Make good use of the time that you are renting planes from here on out. Don't just bore holes in the sky. Practice pulling power on yourself in the pattern to see what it takes to make a landing. Always try to land on a pre-determined spot on the runway so that you will become better with your energy management. Practice slow flight.
3) Before going to sleep at night, take yourself through your first flight in your mind. By the time that your day arrives, you will have flown it hundreds of times.
4) Determine a "hard deck" for an emergency. This is the altitude where either the problem is under control, or you are going to try out that new parachute that you are wearing. You need to make this decision on the ground in advance, not while fighting for your life.
5) Be a professional- wear a helmet and Nomex.

All this advice is worth what you paid for it. Ask me in a couple of weeks if it worked for me. My big day is right around the corner.
 
prkaye said:
So it sounds like the big limitation for a low-time pilot is not being able to handle emergencies. Since I'm going to be flying my RV at some point, for many years to come, perhaps this is a skill I should develop. I mean, it's not necessarily the first flight when something will go wrong. When I was a glider pilot, it was very common for instructors to pull the tow-release unexpectedly on you, and you'd have to sort it out... it added that element of surprise.
What about getting an instructor to give me some training on dealing with emergencies? Simulate all sorts of things? To what extent can emergencies be simulated?
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Phil -

You make a good point - if you are going to be flying the thing well after first flight, you should know how to deal with emergencies anyway. IMHO, most of dealing with emergencies (i.e. engine failures) is being very familiar with the airplane's systems and flying characteristics.

Throughout the build process I was 50/50 whether or not I would hire an experienced RV pilot to do the first flight. After receiving 7.5hours in "Old Blue" (RV-6A) with Mike Seager, I felt confident enough to do the first flight. That is what I did and I don't regret it. I believe that a more experienced RV pilot would have had a slightly better ability to deal with emergencies, however, there is the emotional aspect of someone else crawling into my aircraft that I worked on for 5+ years. Plus, first flight was handled professionally - I had a two person ground crew on a hand held and an RV-6A as chase. I flew for 30 minutes only and stayed within the airport perimeter at all times. Ultimately, the decision should come down to your confidence in your abilities to handle first flight. To me that requires good transition training. But as you eluded to, if you don't do first flight, you will still want that training for flight #2-50.

As for the types of emergencies to train for, I would mostly just consider engine failure training and no flap landings. For the first flight, by far the most common thing that could go wrong mechanically is the engine failing. Of course other things could go wrong like radio failures and other instrument failures, but these things should not prevent you from safely landing the airplane. Just make sure that you don't get distracted by little things and just fly the airplane.
 
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I have mixed feelings on the topic.

If you're questioning whether you should do the first flight, then I believe you're probably not ready.

Try getting some transition training. This will help you decide. The instructor will let you know if you are capable.

Part of the whole experience of building your plane is the thrill of the first flight. Although, safety first.

I had about 400 hrs in my Cherokee & 5 hours RV transistion training. I felt I was ready for the task and was happy I did it. Not sure how I would have felt seeing my RV takeoff without me.

Note: My first flight airport has runway configurations that would have enabled me to land on the alternate runway with only a slight bank adjustment. Plan for the worst. Be prepared.
 
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Training for engine failures is fine - that just means that in the unfortunate case of an engine failure, you'll not only get to experience the first flight of your RV, but it's first forced landing as well. Anyone who does a first flight needs to be proficient in the standard emergency procedures, even though statistically, none of them will likely happen. (You are more likely to have a failure on the first flight, but it is still a pretty low probability. On most first flights, all the big things work!)

The thing about having lots of experience is this - you have no idea what little distractions are going to come along, and how you are going to react to them. I am talking weird stuff. Banging noises from a canopy skirt. Strange whistles. A glance down at your panel just as you get ready to rotate, and seeing a warning light, or an out-of-range indication. Do you go or abort?! And how much time to decide? And have you "been there before", for real?

I know lots of low-time folks make successful first flights. But success in a an endeavor that involves risk is not justification that taking the risk was a good idea, or that doing it again is smart. "Getting away with it" is not justification. I've been there with multi-mega-dollar programs, and seen bad decisions made because of rationalization of past success.

I am not saying don't do it - I am suggesting that, as others have said, if you have to ask the question "what do I need to train for?", then you may not yet have accumulated the experience needed to successfully deal with first flight issues.

Just like I tell all of my operations folks - the failures you will have in flight are never going to be the ones you trained for - and they never are. training is in how to recognize and come up with responses to failures generically - not to memorize specific responses to specific failures.

Paul
 
I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating- do the first flights from a suitable field- decent runway length with few obstructions and decent terrain close to the airport. A number of people, highly experienced people, have been killed or injured doing test flights from a runway surrounded by forests or buildings. If the engine stops in this situation, your great skills won't matter much- it will be five years down the drain as a minimum hit for a bad decision on the ground which left you with zero options in the air.

In one case, the pilot tried the 270 degree turn back to the runway because everything else was trees- stall/ spin was the fatal result.

You should mentally prepare yourself that a power loss at a certain altitude is going to hurt the airplane and you must have the plan firmly in you mind that you will do the right thing and save yourself. Others have been killed trying something stupid to try to save the aircraft.

As far as parachutes go, I think the jury is still out on whether you can get out of an RV/ slider in flight. I wore one for Vne and G testing and practiced getting out on the ground a lot but now have serious doubts about being able to get out even under ideal straight and level conditions, let alone after a serious loss of control or structural failure. Does anyone here know if there has ever been a successful RV bailout to date?
 
Von Alexander made a leap from a flaming RV-8 many years ago. His legacy was that he proved it could be done. It was unfortunate that he was not wearing a parachute at the time which resulted in his death.
 
rv6ejguy said:
I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating- do the first flights from a suitable field- decent runway length with few obstructions and decent terrain close to the airport. A number of people, highly experienced people, have been killed or injured doing test flights from a runway surrounded by forests or buildings.
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Ross,

Yes, yes of course! Well said. EXCELLENT advice. Van's recommends the very same thing. I wholeheartedly agree, however......

Time for a reality check.

#1. More builders than not face a real world dilemma and that is one of limited, finite resources. Finding available and precious little available hangar space anywhere can be a hard won battle sometimes involving a multi-years wait. You probably know of someone who has been in that situation yourself. Nevertheless, the intrepid builder found and seized upon some hangar space when that rare opportunity finally presented itself. Trouble is, that hangar is located upon a less than "suitable" airport.

#2. Time passes. Our intrepid and steadfast builder finally finishes his RV and the day dawns when the airplane is ready to fly for the very first time. Do any of us really think the average builder NOW is now going to reach deep into his pocket to endure the time and considerable expense of disassembling his brand new airplane and then relocate it to another distant (possibly non-existent) airport to conduct its first flights?

#3. Given real world conditions and opportunities, it may well be far more practical and cost effective for the the first time flight to be conducted where the airplane presently resides by someone more qualified than the builder is. That is a choice only the builder can make.

#4. Flying IS an inherently dangerous endeavor and we all know that to be true whether we are willing to consciously admit it to ourselves or not. The very first flight of an untested machine is one of those times when that reality is brought into much sharper focus.

Discussing realistic options seems a more helpful exercise than restating the glaringly obvious, that is.... conducting first flights from a suitable field. Sure, in a perfect world that would be nice. Most of us would instinctly do that anyway but for a considerable number of builders, just not very practical.
 
Airport and pilot are two different things.

Rick6a said:
Trouble is, that hangar is located upon a less than "suitable" airport.
Time passes. Our intrepid and steadfast builder finally finishes his RV and the day dawns when the airplane is ready to fly for the very first time. Do any of us really think the average builder NOW is now going to reach deep into his pocket to endure the time and considerable expense of disassembling his brand new airplane and then relocate it to another distant (possibly non-existent) airport to conduct its first flights?
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that if the airport is "totally unsuitable" (completely surrounded by densely populated area) for a first flight, the FAA inspector/DAR may, Nay, MUST deny the airworthiness certificate until the aircraft is relocated to a suitable airport, per FAA Order 8130.2F.
 
Take the edge off then fly the plane

You need to experience RV flight yourself with a transition trainer like Mike Seager to remove the uncertainty you have and I think your first flight decision will be naturally made by you. The airplanes fly extremely normal. Since you have an "A" model you have to really take to heart trimming it for landing and keeping the nose gear off as long as possible after you are safely on the runway. That's not going to change if you let someone else fly the plane for the first time. Even after you have as much time in your RV as you now have in your logbook you are still going to make an occasional ugly landing and no one can take that risk away if your are going to fly the airplane.

I think this is important. You need to make the decision, plan for it and work toward fulfillment of that plan. If you make the first flight, the additional preflight requirement is getting yourself ready as well as the airplane - and that has to be included in the planning and working.

It probably is just as satisfying to see your creation fly for the first time while watching from the ground as it is from the cockpit and you can integrate your skill set into the system when the airplane is debugged. With a system as complex as an airplane there will be integration and operation problems and only the most gross defects will show up on the first flight of your uniquely configured airplane - never let your guard down. If you decide to let someone else make the first flight or the first 20 hours of flight the task of getting yourself ready can be deferred but not eliminated.

Bob Axsom
 
To look at it another way.....

If you get someone else to do the first flight, you will get TWO first flights. One for the aircraft and one for you!
 
Thanks!

Thanks for all the thoughts on this. I'm going to get transition training once the airplane is assembled and ready to be inspected, and make my final decision AFTER that transition training.
Not sure where the best bet is for transition training is given I live in Ottawa Canada... somebody in the NE states? I want somebody who will give me lots of info beyond just flying the airplane around. Checklists, speeds, emergency procedures... I assume some of the better transition trainign guys would provide all this stuff, as well as some hands on training for dead-stick landings? Also, I want the transition training IN a -9A, not another similar type of RV. Recommendations?
 
Phil, as someone who just experienced what you're facing, I can appreciate your dilemma. When I considered the facts in my case, I opted to have a high-time RV-8 driver make the first flight.

I haven't flown since '98.

I have almost ZERO time in taildraggers.

My airport has a 2500', narrow paved runway and a couple of grass strips with housing developments on the departure ends of all but one runway.

I just KNEW that I'd screwed up something major that would flood the cockpit with fuel, dump all of the engine oil or allow the wings to fold ... probably a figure-8 hole somewhere. :D

When I considered those immutable facts, and accepted that a good friend with over 1,000 hours in his RV-8 (who had also helped me build over the years) had offered to do the honors, there really was no decision to make.

No, I didn't sport an RV GRIN when he landed. He did. I was much more interested to hear what went wrong with the flight. While the plane flew hands-off, there WERE glitches -- I had reversed the pitch trim. The Dynon EMS read 61" of MAP. There was NO airspeed readout from the Dynon EFIS. Any one of those things would have distracted me so during that first flight that I might indeed have done something stupid. My test pilot, however, knew by the sound of the engine, how it handled and by the temps on the EMS that everything was really doing just fine. He flew the plane and had fun.

So, I'm on the ground looking up through a camera viewfinder at my plane's first flight. Not much fun. HOWEVER ... when I make that first flight (soon, I hope!), I'll do it much more relaxed, knowing that the wings won't suddenly fall off, the engine won't be spewing oil and the cockpit won't reek of avgas. What's the value of that? Priceless ...

Just another opinion. I'll gladly trade peace of mind for first flight memories.
 
Interesting....

N8RV said:
While the plane flew hands-off, there WERE glitches -- I had reversed the pitch trim.
Click to expand...
I would have to say that almost 1/2 of the airplanes that I inspect have either the pitch trim and/or the indicator reversed. Remember, tab goes up, elevator goes down, nose goes down. And vice versa.

BTW, your DAR should have caught that. Control rigging is one of the most important things on my checklist.
 
OK, you guys make think I'm a fool.

I did my first flight out of a 2300' long by 30' wide paved strip with trees on both ends. However, just beyond the trees on one end was a golf course and I took off in that direction. I then climbed to 3000' while circling over the airport. Then it was six miles to a 5500' long by 100' wide uncontrolled airport. Staying at 3000' feet all the way. I then circled that larger airport doing my speed and stall checks before landing after a half hour.

Flying chase was one of the RV formation guys, just in case my airspeed indicator was off, it wasn't.

Prior to my first flight, I checked out in a friend's RV-6, which helped a lot. One of the things we did was to fly my first flight profile, so I knew exactly what to expect. This also gave me time to look around and note possible landing areas, should I need them.

Would I make that first flight out of my small airport again? Probably, then again, I had no less than five other builders and EAA Tech Advisors look over my plane before the first flight. That helped boost my confidence level but there were still a lot of unknowns.
 
Rick6a said:
Ross,

Yes, yes of course! Well said. EXCELLENT advice. Van's recommends the very same thing. I wholeheartedly agree, however......

Time for a reality check.

#1. More builders than not face a real world dilemma and that is one of limited, finite resources. Finding available and precious little available hangar space anywhere can be a hard won battle sometimes involving a multi-years wait. You probably know of someone who has been in that situation yourself. Nevertheless, the intrepid builder found and seized upon some hangar space when that rare opportunity finally presented itself. Trouble is, that hangar is located upon a less than "suitable" airport.

#2. Time passes. Our intrepid and steadfast builder finally finishes his RV and the day dawns when the airplane is ready to fly for the very first time. Do any of us really think the average builder NOW is now going to reach deep into his pocket to endure the time and considerable expense of disassembling his brand new airplane and then relocate it to another distant (possibly non-existent) airport to conduct its first flights?

#3. Given real world conditions and opportunities, it may well be far more practical and cost effective for the the first time flight to be conducted where the airplane presently resides by someone more qualified than the builder is. That is a choice only the builder can make.

#4. Flying IS an inherently dangerous endeavor and we all know that to be true whether we are willing to consciously admit it to ourselves or not. The very first flight of an untested machine is one of those times when that reality is brought into much sharper focus.

Discussing realistic options seems a more helpful exercise than restating the glaringly obvious, that is.... conducting first flights from a suitable field. Sure, in a perfect world that would be nice. Most of us would instinctly do that anyway but for a considerable number of builders, just not very practical.
Click to expand...

Yes Rick, all about risk but why not stack the deck a bit in your favor for the first flights? A little inconvenience perhaps. It's a little late if the prop stops at 300 feet just as you pop up over a bunch of trees or city scape to wish you'd final assembled the plane at a more suitable airport. Van doesn't make these suggestions for no reason either. He's always trying to save our sorry butts by making us think.

Personally I'd feel safer conducting my own test flights without transition training from a good airport than taking that training and then flying from a short strip with obstructions. What exactly will the training do for you when there are no outs? Might prevent you from stalling right before you hit the tree tops.

The biggest emergencies you might face will be power loss and fire. Everything else will be pretty minor. Both of these will entail getting the plane down safely in short order. I'd prefer some flat open spaces or long runways...

I don't buy the expense argument when so many builders are stuffing $20-100K into glass cockpits.

The "I did it and got away with it" syndrome shouldn't be cause for celebration in flying, it should be used in reflection as a learning tool- "wow I'm not sure that was the best idea, don't think I'll do that again, didn't feel comfortable".

The risks are your own of course and we all assess these differently.
 
Mel said:
I would have to say that almost 1/2 of the airplanes that I inspect have either the pitch trim and/or the indicator reversed. Remember, tab goes up, elevator goes down, nose goes down. And vice versa.
Click to expand...

Mel, and what about having a heavy wing? How common is that from planes you've inspected? I’m looking at used RV’s for sale, and understand if a wing it out of rig, many do a simple fix by simply turning the aileron, bolt or nut (whatever it is) one turn or so to correct it, while sacrificing a slight speed decrease. I imagine this is very difficult to detect, especially with a ground inspection.
 
wrongway john said:
Mel, and what about having a heavy wing? How common is that from planes you've inspected? I?m looking at used RV?s for sale, and understand if a wing it out of rig, many do a simple fix by simply turning the aileron, bolt or nut (whatever it is) one turn or so to correct it, while sacrificing a slight speed decrease. I imagine this is very difficult to detect, especially with a ground inspection.
Click to expand...
First off, I can't detect a "heavy wing" by inspecting. That will be determined during flight testing. A heavy wing cannot be corrected by a "turn of a bolt." There are basically three ways to correct a heavy wing. 1/ Correct an incorrect angle of incidence on the wing. 2/ Raise or lower an incorrectly installed aileron. or 3/ Squeeze the trailing edge radius of the aileron on the "light" wing. Number 3 is by far the most common cure for minor problems.
 
Thanks Mel. I should have written it actually doesn?t correct the heavy wing, but I read a few threads, where those that had it, were taking a short cut by doing what I described, even if it wasn't the aileron that needed the correction. Some of those wing corrections you describe seem like it would be quite a chore, but I would certainly want it done right.

Do you or anyone else in this area do pre-inspections for used RV?s that are on the market? Kind of interested in this one RV, but would like to get a more experienced opinion of its condition and value.
 
John,
You might try Darrell Morgan for a pre-buy inspection.
He has "FireBird Aviation" at Mineral Wells, TX. Sorry, I don't have the number.
 
On the first flight the plane may have a heavy wing or the ball may be way off, this kind of distraction is enough to want to have a more experianced pilot fly the plane, Mike
 
MIKEM said:
On the first flight the plane may have a heavy wing or the ball may be way off, this kind of distraction is enough to want to have a more experianced pilot fly the plane, Mike
Click to expand...

When it comes to heavy wings...............the aileron control pressures are still light. I had a heavy wing, that couldn't be corrected with full opposite trim. But I didn't even notice it on the first flight.

Of course, if something it seriously out of whack, then all bets are off. But you'd have to notice some real shoddy alignment while sitting on the ground.

My heavy wing was easily taken care of. The opposite aileron just had a bit thicker radius, which I slightly flattened out.

And................ the ball was way off too. But I expected that. My 6A tail has no built in offset; and trim tabs or wedges are common. It did take quite a push on the rudder pedal to keep the ball in the center.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
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