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Rear panel feedback please...

chepburn

chepburn

Well Known Member
Hi all,
Before I cut metal, I have mocked up a rear panel for my 8 in progress. I am right at the stage where figuring this out is pretty convenient, and easy to work on. I am looking for feedback here. The intent is for the rear pilot to have :
Throttle, Mixture , Prop(future), Airspeed, Altitude, Tach, Oil. Compass. I have included a link to some pics.

I want the rear pilot to be able to land safely, VFR.

Thanks for any input.

http://hepburn.chris.googlepages.com/rearseatmockup

Chris
 
Chris,

I couldn't make out if the pressure gauge was MP, oil, or fuel. I suspect it is MP as it is located next to your tach.

You don't really need the compass as the Garmin has that feature and its own battery backup.

Other than that, it is a cool idea!

Are you going to find a way to rig brakes to rear mushroom peddles?
 
Chris...

I hate to pour water on your idea :eek:

We have a simple RV-8 Panel in the front. The Dynon, mounted top centre is visible from the rear with difficulty. But from each side of it, outboard and then down, the panel is easily visible from the rear, and of course, especially the side panels. The only area "not visible" is the centre 1/3 / lower 1/2 of the panel.

If the "sole aim" is to land safely from the rear, then a throttle is needed. Mixture? RPM? At worst, just stow a stick somewhere so you can nudge the front RPM/Mixture levers forward. Or just a cord or something to pull i.e. 1 way only.

I'm an airline pilot and "pilot incapacitation" has 3 elements. 1 get the aircraft down. 2 attend to the "sick" pilot. 3 stop the "sick pilot" interfering with the controls. You are concentrating on 1, but the rear panel hinders you from some of 2 and 3...

As I say, only 1 point of view. But I fly / navigate / instruct formation and aerobatics from the rear of RV-8s with no problem, so long as the front panel is thought out sensibly ;)

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 http://www.g-hilz.co.uk

Edit: be careful of things "just clearing" the front seat back... they are fine, until some fat g*t sits in the front seat, when it bends backwards a bit !!
 
No problem..thats why I wanted feedback

Thanks. I want constructive criticism.
I am currently thinking of having a Odyssey up front, so I expect that its placement will be difficult for the rear pilot to see. Of course, I will have backup steam...Airspeed, Altitude, maybe Tach. From my VERY limited experience flying in the back of a friend's 8, I found it difficult to see the instruments, and, I would be uncomfortable trying to do a scan while landing. Of course, I am NOT a seasoned instructor (well sailplanes, but they are quite different), so that is why I appreciate comments such as yours. I will think carefully on the forward panel steam placement so that I can possibly forego doubling up if it is not necessary.
I have made the quadrant for Throttle, Mixture and RPM, but I am really waffling on the RPM, and will probably not put that lever to the rear.
Also, I will NOT be putting in brakes in the rear, I think the possibility of an inadvertant braking by my passenger outweighs the possible benefit.

BTW, I dont understand how the rear pilot will be able to attend to #2 and #3 in the 8, panel or no panel. Maybe a noose around the neck? ;)

Thanks
Keep em coming...Im looking for more opinions
Chris
Andy Hill said:
Chris...

I hate to pour water on your idea :eek:

We have a simple RV-8 Panel in the front. The Dynon, mounted top centre is visible from the rear with difficulty. But from each side of it, outboard and then down, the panel is easily visible from the rear, and of course, especially the side panels. The only area "not visible" is the centre 1/3 / lower 1/2 of the panel.

If the "sole aim" is to land safely from the rear, then a throttle is needed. Mixture? RPM? At worst, just stow a stick somewhere so you can nudge the front RPM/Mixture levers forward. Or just a cord or something to pull i.e. 1 way only.

I'm an airline pilot and "pilot incapacitation" has 3 elements. 1 get the aircraft down. 2 attend to the "sick" pilot. 3 stop the "sick pilot" interfering with the controls. You are concentrating on 1, but the rear panel hinders you from some of 2 and 3...

As I say, only 1 point of view. But I fly / navigate / instruct formation and aerobatics from the rear of RV-8s with no problem, so long as the front panel is thought out sensibly ;)

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 http://www.g-hilz.co.uk

Edit: be careful of things "just clearing" the front seat back... they are fine, until some fat g*t sits in the front seat, when it bends backwards a bit !!
Click to expand...
 
I like innovators Chris - good luck!

I do wonder if you have tried this with real seat cushions in place though. I tried to build up a panel for the rear, and discovered that it took a whole lot of room away from the rear seater - made it hard to get in or out, and very cramped in flight (with just a mock-up!). We ended up with a mount for a 396, and that gives th back-seater dang near everything they need for navigation. I don't have rear pedals, and a stick to operate th throttle in an emergency gets us by.

Just check your config with full-sized seat cushions before you commit would be my only real comment...

Paul
 
If you're going glass in the front, then the best idea is to probably just hold off a little bit. Most of the current EFIS companies will make you a "slave screen" or 2nd "MFD" (I'm not sure of MGL, but the Odyssey is only about 2.5" deep anyway). It would be much easier to just put an MFD back there, run a couple wires and be done with it. Otherwise you're dealing with even more pitot static connections (points for leaks), more maintenance, etc.. The handheld Garmin is an excellent tool, and surprisingly can almost be enought to fly the airplane on by itself in an extreme emergency.

Anyway, I'd stronly urge you to resist the urge to put steam gauges back there at all. Rear quadrant fine, but it's an awful lot more mess of plumbing to get steam gauges hooked up, and certainly a lot worse than running a couple wires for an MFD.

I can tell you one thing....I'd definately wait until after OSH to make any decisions at all. If you're there, stop by and ask MGL about the possibility of a 2nd MFD or slave screen. We already know others can do it...

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein
 
Paul,
Thanks! What a great idea... I will remove my mockup and try it in Mark's 8 (assuming he is game for that...are you Mark?) That way, I will be able to see how much the panel gets in the way...I have tried to keep its profile within the width of the forward seat support, hoping that that would not get in the way of one's knees on the way in. Nothing like trying it in a completed plane though. I dont have any cushions yet, I expect that those are still about 18 months in my future. (Im also not too eager to jump around inside my fuselage yet....clecoes are not that trustworthy)

Stein, I asked MGL about a slave earlier, and so far, that is not in the works for the Odyssey. Even if it was, I dont know if $ would allow it...thus the steam approach.

This forum is awesome!


Chris.
 
SteinAir said:
If you're going glass in the front, then the best idea is to probably just hold off a little bit. Most of the current EFIS companies will make you a "slave screen" or 2nd "MFD" (I'm not sure of MGL, but the Odyssey is only about 2.5" deep anyway). It would be much easier to just put an MFD back there, run a couple wires and be done with it.

I can tell you one thing....I'd definately wait until after OSH to make any decisions at all. If you're there, stop by and ask MGL about the possibility of a 2nd MFD or slave screen. We already know others can do it...

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein
Click to expand...

Stein, exactly what I was thinking of when I asked the question about what was in his front panel.

Sure does seem like the way to go.
 
If the point is to be able to land from the rear seat in an emergency, I'd re-iterate what Andy said -- just give the back seater a throttle. Rudder pedals would also be helpful.

That being said, have you been in the back seat of an 8 (not an 8A) and tried to land it? I think it's an emergency only situation and even at that, you'll be glad just to get it on the ground. The forward visibility from there is nil at least from my experience. I'm 5' 10" and unless you've put in a pretty thick booster seat, I can't even see the instruments on the front panel much less anything forward outside -- that's in level flight. You can forget about forward visibility in the flare.

My suggestion: Let them have a throttle for some fun and for emergencies. Otherwise, give the back seater a GPS496, a gameboy, or a good book and tell them to enjoy the ride :)

Chris
 
Actually, I was thinking of using the rear seat for Spitfire transition training! ;)

chrispratt said:
If the point is to be able to land from the rear seat in an emergency, I'd re-iterate what Andy said -- just give the back seater a throttle. Rudder pedals would also be helpful.

That being said, have you been in the back seat of an 8 (not an 8A) and tried to land it? I think it's an emergency only situation and even at that, you'll be glad just to get it on the ground. The forward visibility from there is nil at least from my experience. I'm 5' 10" and unless you've put in a pretty thick booster seat, I can't even see the instruments on the front panel much less anything forward outside -- that's in level flight. You can forget about forward visibility in the flare.

My suggestion: Let them have a throttle for some fun and for emergencies. Otherwise, give the back seater a GPS496, a gameboy, or a good book and tell them to enjoy the ride :)

Chris
Click to expand...
 
chepburn said:
Stein, I asked MGL about a slave earlier, and so far, that is not in the works for the Odyssey. Chris.
Click to expand...

I think and Odyssey can act as a master EFIS and feed info to another Odyssey, Voyager or Enigma via USB cable. You can't transfer route info so you'll need two SD cards loaded, one for each. I'm going with the Odyssey too and have put together a small panel to mount an Enigma to the back of the front seat--I think it's just the right size for the back. It sticks back about 3 1/2 inches from the top of the front seat with about 5 1/2" at the bottom so there's room for power and USB. Haven't got seat cushions yet so I don't know how intrusive it will be.
 
Chris.

Another food for thought. One problem with RV's in general is that there are no headrests (common in every new car) to cater for whiplash in the event of an emergency landing Why not fit a headrest with a build in video screen that can take a video feed from an EFIS? This one has a DVD built in so if the wife/girlfriend/mistress gets bored they can watch a movie!

This is something I'm looking into but the sticking point at the moment is finding an EFIS/MFD that has a video out.

I've flown in Andy's 8 and the idea of having the ASI/ALT/Tacho visible from the rear is excellent and I will incorporate that into my panel design. The headrest screen idea is mainly for GPS mapping.

Bob Ellis
www.rv-8.co.uk
Wings nearly complete
 
Simple solution

Chris,
Why go through all the expense, weight and hassle of installing instruments in the rear? Simply install a "lipstick" camera aimed at the front panel. Link the camera to a video monitor in the rear. That way, the co-pilot can see all the instruments that the pilot sees.
Charlie Kuss
 
Bob Ellis said:
One problem with RV's in general is that there are no headrests (common in every new car) to cater for whiplash in the event of an emergency landing
Click to expand...

Not to many aircraft get hit from the rear but if you want them (I did for looks and perhaps a bit of comfort), check out Classic Aero Design. Really nice stuff and an awesome company to deal with.
 
Thanks for the input.
The thought of using an Enigma as a repeater spurred a thought...The Odyssey supports ARINC, and also supports some USB slaves according to the tech sheets.
(Hitting myself on head here) I am in the software business...(sims actually) so I suppose there may be a way to drive a small tablet PC slave mounted to the rear seat. (Assuming, of course , that I would have permission from MGL to persue this avenue) The tablet could also be used for flight planning, DVDs etc.... AND, it 'might' be cheaper $ wise than a slave..(but obviously not time wise)
Pros- More info from the front seat, multi purpose usage
Cons - NOT a backup system, LOTS more work


BTW Quadrant nearly completed. Panel is still 'cardboard'. Patience in the works.
Chris
 
KISS

I installed rear seat throttle and rudder pedals. I hated the pedals because they covered the little panels where the fuel selector valve is. I really use those panels to store stuff and losing that space really hurt.

Also, in 5 years, I've had one person use the rear seat throttle. Also, if you have a C/S prop, there is no need to horse with the throttle from the back... unless your trying to do take-offs or simulated landings.

I thought of putting some minimal instruments in the back but, like Iron, found it very difficult to get in or out. Also it felt like the panel was too close to me and the re-focusing was difficult now that my eyes are changing (really stinks not being able to focus on close-up things).

My wife is the only person to ever desire instruments in the back and that was only during long cross-countries where she was flying.

Karl

Now in Sandpoint, ID. :)
 
RatMan said:
Not to many aircraft get hit from the rear but if you want them (I did for looks and perhaps a bit of comfort), check out Classic Aero Design. Really nice stuff and an awesome company to deal with.
Click to expand...

This short video shows the benefit of a headrest in a sudden stop crash (most aircraft type ones I would suggest!). Without the headrest the whiplash would have been serious. It also shows the need to have some panel and,or, rear of front seat padding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMhbUVt_wRE

Bob
www.rv-8.co.uk
 
chaskuss said:
Chris,
Why go through all the expense, weight and hassle of installing instruments in the rear? Simply install a "lipstick" camera aimed at the front panel. Link the camera to a video monitor in the rear. That way, the co-pilot can see all the instruments that the pilot sees.
Charlie Kuss
Click to expand...

If the cam was mounted high enough this could also be your view out the front during emergency landing from the back seat....
 
Rear Panel Experience

I have dual GRT displays in the front seat and fashioned a small panel in the back with 4 Adel clamps holding the panel to the weldment between the seats. My Adel clamps (middle 2) are also the cushion for the front seatback to prevent scratching. I added a single GRT display only. I also have a stick, throttle(no prop) and rudder pedals. The rear seater can fly, navigate, check the engine and run checklists all from the GRT display. The feedback before the panel was that it was hard for the backseater to fly and now it is much more pleasant as well as they are more involved in the flying. Because it is up relatively high, it does not interfere with comfort and space in the back. I have all 3 displays active, so an altimeter setting change, nav mode or arming the approach can all be done from the back - requires some communication to ensure we are both not doing the same thing.
I have about 180 hours on the back seat panel - no planned changes or things I would do differently.

Bruce "FM" Edwards
RV-8 391FM 275 hours
GRT, GNS-430W, TT autopilot
 
I just installed the rear panel in the back--still have covers for the sides to install, and don't have cushions yet so it's hard to tell yet how it will work when everything's done, but I like it so far. It's made from .05" 6061 aluminum (in the pictures, the face still has the white protective plastic).

I'm going to install an Odyssey in the front and an enigma in the back as a slave screen. If I understand the requirements I'll only need to run power and a USB cable to the back.

The Enigma box is about 2.75" deep and the manual says to allow 4.72" for connections. This panel at the closest (top) is 3.75" from the front seat and about 5" at the bottom which is where the power comes in so it should (hopefully) fit.

It's mounted to the underside of the top front seat angle using nutplates, so it doesn't interfere with clearance for front shoulder belts, etc. The front seat can't hinge forward more than about 2". I may use the top of the panel for the GPS hockey puck because I don't want to put it on the front glare shield.

At this point, only thing I may change is cutting the top piece another 1/4" or so so the face of the panel angle's up just a little bit so it's easier to see/read. I'll wait until the seats are in to see how it looks first.
Pictures taken with my cell phone so quality isn't great:
rearpanel1wa3.jpg
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rearpanel2hf2.jpg
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rearpanel3yr2.jpg
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Last edited:
my experience...

with a back seat panel is from the back of an RV-4. Ovbviously the quarters there are a little tighter than the -8. I found the backseat panel (mounted to the back of the roll-over) to be WAAAY to close to my face. Tryng to focus on it made be a little air sick, which is not typical for me.
 
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