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Instrument training - RV or Cessna?

Scott Will

Scott Will

Well Known Member
Well I finally got the multi-checkride out of the way yesterday. Gorgeous weather for it up in KCHA. Now its on to the next step - the instrument ticket.

Was talking with my instructor yesterday about the best aircraft to train in. Currently my RV-7A has a dual GRT setup with an SL-30, TT Pictorial Pilot, and a 396. I put the 396 in the radio stack because someday I envisioned that a Garmin 430 or similar would take its place.

Right now I'm trying to figure out if I should go ahead and do the rating in the spam can C172R or my RV. For those who have done it an RV, how hard was it finding an instructor and more importantly an examiner who'd do the test in the RV? Pretty sure my instructor is cool with the RV. But being the representative of the flight school who also uses the Cessna Pilot Kit, they're sold on the Cessna.

Besides the possible upgrade to the Garmin 430, would it be a good idea to add the pitch servo to the autopilot?

Any good experiences or comparisons about doing the instrument ticket in the Wichita Bug Smasher or RV?

Appreciate the help and advice.
 
I got mine in my 6A with steam gages and **** instruments.
No good reason to spend the money on the rented plane IMHO.

You will have no problem finding a DER to take the check ride in your plane.
I used a guy in Hunstville, Al where I was his first instrument check in an experimental. He thought it was cool. He was an old fart too. We had fun.

I liked doing it in my own plane to
1. save money
2. get to know my plane
3. get comfortable IFR in the RV

Since you will be flying IMC in your RV, do the training in it as well.
Best,
 
I did my instrument rating in my old Yankee many, many years ago, and they are just about as unstable (yet less responsive) as any RV out there. Once you get the hang of it, you'll be a better instrument pilot - flying a spam can will be easy.

If you're going to use the airplane for reliable IFR flying, I would definitely upgrade to an IFR GPS (4230 gives you everything) and the Altitude hold. (For the rating? If you're instructor is good, you probably won't get much of a chance to use the autopilot in training, so you could add it later...)
 
I would recommend doing it in the RV as well... having instructed several instrument students, I think you would be better for having the training in the airplane you'll be doing the flying in.

As for getting an examiner to do the checkride, I doubt that would be an issue. I can't speak from any experience, but I also can't imagine it being any problem. Although I'm sure there are a few out there who would shy away for whatever reason.

Good luck! You'll love the new set of skills.
 
Different angle

Although my RV is IFR I can't find anyone to instruct. Not that they don't want to, but they are not convenient either in geographics or time. So, I'm going to one of the accelerated schools and knock it out in 10 days. Then I'm off to California to add on the heli instrument.

I was also advised by another RVer (but not validated by my insurance comp) that the instructor would have to be "named insured" on the policy and meet the minimum RV requirements for them.
 
Named on the insurance????

I think that is what your instructor's insurance is for...

But anyway I got my rating in my 7a, from a CFII who is also building a 7a....We live like 2 miles away from each other and have become good friends...

Anyway I would definatly do it this way again...When I started i didn't think it was actually possible to fly the RV in IMC...I was all over the place.

It was quite discouraging at first but after a few hours I gradually started to hold altiude and heading under the hood, but it wasn't pretty.

As Paul Dye said...Forget the autopilot for now, you need to get good at hand flying and its not easy. Get your rating and then add the altitude hold....Flying IFR will actually be fun with the autopilot.

(I should note I do have the pictorial pilot that I used for primary on the rate of turn indication...Still hand flying remember), but the EFIS was the primary instrument for AI....I prefer doing it this way as I find it helps with the instrument scan.

I can honestly say learning IFR (especially in the RV) was the hardest thing I have ever done. I almost gave up several times, took me 55 hours but gradually bit by bit I got there.

You know the funny thing...I don't know why it was such a big deal...I can hand fly in IMC now and its not difficult at all!

Then I took my C152 instrument student friend flying...His reaction was "how do you fly this thing?"...he certainly couldn't....:D

So bottom line is...The thing is a pig to learn in, it will take you longer but it is possible and the sense of accomplishment is indescribable.

Go for it...Oh the examiner could hardly wait to get in my airplane...:)

Frank
 
Scott,

I got my instrument rating in my 9A last year with one of the accelerated 10 day courses. It was intense but well worth it.

The instructor and his employer (PIC) had no problem with instructing in an experimental and they found an examiner that would give the check ride in an RV. I am in California so that probably doesn't help you much.

I think I would have the pitch servo installed for your training so you find out the best way to use it during your training and it will be the same when you start flying real IFR. I doubt the instructor will let you rely on it too much during training. Most of my training was hand flying, only enough A/P to learn its use. The examiner had me hand fly all types of approaches and then an ILS and GPS using the A/P.
 
I've started my instrument flying in a 172 ... it's the first airplane with a yoke that I've flown despite having 130 hours. It's quite stable, even compared to our CT. I find that the airplane has less "feel" than what I'm used to and is about 50% heavier too.

It should work, but get some VFR time getting used to the airplane - otherwise you'll always be putting in too much or too little control input (like me).

TODR
 
I did my IFR training and did the checkride in my 6A. I agree with Paul - my checkride examiner "failed" the autopilot when I tried to use it, so I was glad that my instructor "failed" it almost every time as well.

Dick
 
Scott...IMHO, it is more about whats going on between your ears, your personal efforts/motivation,and serious studying. This training will definitely take you to a new level of smoothness, and proficiency, regardless of the aircraft you spend time with. "Fly smart", and good luck
 
Either way works, but I say save the cash & get it in your RV. The 10 day schools are a nice way to get it done, but they're not cheap. An examiner should have no problem in an RV - they should fly in whatever you ask them to.

An IFR GPS & pitch/roll autopilot are nice, but definitely not a requirement for IMC flight. That's a lot of gas money...
 
I did my IFR training and did the checkride in my 6A. I agree with Paul - my checkride examiner "failed" the autopilot when I tried to use it, so I was glad that my instructor "failed" it almost every time as well.
Click to expand...

I would insist that my IFR instructor teach me the proper way to use the autopilot in every aspect of IFR flight. The autopilot is a tremendous safety feature in our planes and we should be proficient at using it regardless of the flight conditions facing us.

In my opinion, to not teach the IFR student how to use all the equipment at his disposal is irresponsible.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
In my opinion, to not teach the IFR student how to use all the equipment at his disposal is irresponsible.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Sam - I was NEVER taught how to use ab autopilot in light airplanes, because either they weren't there, or didn't work (way back in the dark ages...), and in this day and age, I am a strong believer in them making single pilot IFR a whole lot safer. My too-short comment was intended to mean that you should learn to hand-fly IFR first, because unless you have redundant autopilots, you need to be able to fly when one quits, so the first thing is to get competent without it, and then make dang sure you know how to use one (and all the rest of the technically advanced gear we have!) to make your IFR flight safer and easier.

Have it, insist on getting trained with it, know how to live without it...

Paul
 
Sam Buchanan said:
In my opinion, to not teach the IFR student how to use all the equipment at his disposal is irresponsible.
Click to expand...

Definitely, the student should know how to run all of the equipment in the airplane. But, I think what others here were saying was that it is also important to know how to hand-fly the approaches in case of a system failure of some sort.

A good instructor should show the student how to fly the airplane with autopilot AND hand-flying skills. That way, the student has both tools at their disposal for whatever situation arises in the air. :) (And one can back up the other)
 
aviationgeek84 said:
Definitely, the student should know how to run all of the equipment in the airplane. But, I think what others here were saying was that it is also important to know how to hand-fly the approaches in case of a system failure of some sort.

A good instructor should show the student how to fly the airplane with autopilot AND hand-flying skills. That way, the student has both tools at their disposal for whatever situation arises in the air. :) (And one can back up the other)
Click to expand...


Agreed. You can't pass the flight test without knowing how to hand-fly the aircraft during all phases of IFR flight. In my case the suction cups went over the gyros about 60 seconds after takeoff and stayed on for the duration of the checkride. :)

But......how many instructors still believe the IFR single-engine pilot shouldn't receive instruction with the autopilot because it is "cheating"??

My point is only that it is time for attitudes to change and IFR autopilot use/instruction to be soundly endorsed by our community.
 
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I can definitely go along with the fact that some instructors may ignore the autopilot. I tend to not like autopilots because they CAN (MIGHT) lead a person to become complacent when flying.

That doesn't mean I don't instruct people on the usage and benefits of an autopilot. :)

As for the original question in this thread - I'd say it sounds like most feel the RV is a good choice. I agree.
 
Initially my RV-7A is only going to have a VFR panel. Main equipment consists of a Grand Rapids Sport/HS EFIS with internal GPS, Icom 210, Garmin GTX 327 and EIS-4000 for the engine. The GRT Sport/HS is supposed to be able to synthesize localizer and glide slope using GPS. Can flying a synthesized localizer and glide slope with a safety pilot be logged as practice instrument time? Probably not but thought I would ask.

Like others that have gone before me have said, "I am running out of parts"

Steve Eberhart
RV-7A, on the slippery slope of completion
 
Ironflight said:
I did my instrument rating in my old Yankee many, many years ago, and they are just about as unstable (yet less responsive) as any RV out there. Once you get the hang of it, you'll be a better instrument pilot - flying a spam can will be easy.

If you're going to use the airplane for reliable IFR flying, I would definitely upgrade to an IFR GPS (4230 gives you everything) and the Altitude hold. (For the rating? If you're instructor is good, you probably won't get much of a chance to use the autopilot in training, so you could add it later...)
Click to expand...

Can anyone enlighten me! What does spam can mean?
 
OK I'll try

A Spam-can is a factory built GA airplane......C140, C152, C172, C210,, PA18, PA20,PA22, PA32, Beach Skipper, Bonanza, etc................
Once you fly a F16, T38, P51, RV3, RV4, RV6, RV7, RV8, you have gratitude from SPAM
SPAM is a 'caned food' invented during the depression that fed a lot of people in the USA. made of ham, pork, it is was a cheep food that is still selling these days. Some communities use it in a derogatory way at county fairs. Throwing it, shooting it.
Pore Spam.. It is a good camp food. I am glad to have it when hungry.
 
Jaypratt said:
A Spam-can is a factory built GA airplane......C140, C152, C172, C210,, PA18, PA20,PA22, PA32, Beach Skipper, Bonanza, etc.................
Click to expand...

Just like to point out that most (not all) Bellanca Super Viking owners think an RV is a spam can also... I know- heresy! but they got that wood vs. metal thing going on...:rolleyes:
 
amilder said:
Just like to point out that most (not all) Bellanca Super Viking owners think an RV is a spam can also... I know- heresy! but they got that wood vs. metal thing going on...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The Lancair sales rep that I talked to at Golden West was referring to RV's as spam cans (in a good natured, ribbing sort of way) also when I told him that that's was what I was interested in building. I then asked him what a Legacy FG would get me, besides double the kit price, 3x+ the take off roll, higher stall speed, no tailwheel option, and a measly 8 mph in cruise;) His reply was "a quieter cabin":rolleyes: He's a good guy and I'll go for a ridein one jsut because they're local, but I'm not gonna get one:p
 
Spam Can origins...

I must interject something. My Dad was flying P-47 Thunderbolts in England in the 56th FG, 61st squadron during WWII.

Around spring of 1944, his CO was asked if he wanted the new fangled North American Mustang. The 56th took a few and didn't like em at all, thought they were too light in the armament dept, and were too slow. They named them Spam Cans. Which in comparison to the 'Jug' it was.

Also, bear in mind that the 56th was flying the P-47M model for which Pratt souped up the R2800 to pull in excess of 96"MP with water injection. The lucky Jug pilots who flew the M could fly up next to a Mustang and give the driver the 'lets' race' sign. The '51 driver would push the throttles up and gain speed, just when the Jug driver noticed that the 51 was maxed out, they'd push the throttle past the stop to War Emergency Power (here comes that water and MP) then from a level flight pull up into a loop and pass the '51, leaving it in the dust.

So to these battle hardened vets who flew one of the most rugged ships around (the -47), the P-51 was pretty and all, but the 56th passed them up and gave them the derogatory name Spam Can. Dad did get to fly the '51 stateside in the guard for 10 years, but still preferred the Jug, especially for acro. He also loved the smoothness of the R2800. Pop still calls them Spam Cans.

You will notice in some old Nose Art pictures, there was a P-51 named "Spam Can".

Me? Given a chance, I'd want to point any of em downrange.:p

Art in Asheville
 
Lancair sales

1:1 Scale said:
The Lancair sales rep that I talked to at Golden West was referring to RV's as spam cans (in a good natured, ribbing sort of way) also when I told him that that's was what I was interested in building. I then asked him what a Legacy FG would get me, besides double the kit price, 3x+ the take off roll, higher stall speed, no tailwheel option, and a measly 8 mph in cruise;) His reply was "a quieter cabin":rolleyes: He's a good guy and I'll go for a ridein one jsut because they're local, but I'm not gonna get one:p
Click to expand...

Poor fellow! Imagine having to make a living selling Tupperware airplanes! :)



John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Back to IFR training

Funny how a thread goes from an IFR question into spam cans?

Nevertheless, I'm planning a 430W panel and doing the EFIS research, any comments from the GRT, AFS, Chelton, maybe Enigma, or other users how well the 430W plug and plays with their respective EFIS?

regards,

ajay
 
430 and GRT EFIS

I have an RV-8, GNS 430 and three GRT displays (one in the back seat). The interface between the 430 and the Grand Rapids is flawless in my opinion. I put my flight plan in the 430 and see it all on the GRT. I select and fly approaches in the 430 and the GRT displays it all. The GRT also sends the data to my TruTrak auto pilot and it flys a great coupled approach.
My opinion only.

Bruce "FM" Edwards
391FM, 150 hrs
also ~ 1000 hrs F-15E and F-111F
 
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