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ECI EXP cylinder baffles

That's a Problem for Integration....

It would be interesting to ask ECI if they thought that far ahead, and have a solution. Looks to me like it would be a fairly complex compound baffle curve to fit right.

Classic engineering integration problem - someone designs a great idea into something that then makes some other portion not fit without extensive work. The component designer might have done a fantastic job with an innovative solution, but in the end, it doesn't hep the overall integrated product....

Let's see, that saves 4.84 pounds per engine? How much is that worth in extra time spent on the baffles?

Paul
 
ECI Baffle

ECi does manufacture cylinder baffle kits for the tapered finned barrels. Part numbers vary depending on specific cylinder -- 320 (6.5") or 360 (7.0") barrel lengths.

Joe T
 
Which baffles

Joe T said:
ECi does manufacture cylinder baffle kits for the tapered finned barrels. Part numbers vary depending on specific cylinder -- 320 (6.5") or 360 (7.0") barrel lengths.

Joe T

Joe... is that for just the "wrap" piece, or an entire baffle assembly?

Or are you referring to the "inter-cylinder" baffles (between cyls 2-4 and 1-3), which are usually regarded as part of the engine, whereas the rest of the baffles are usually airframe related??

Inter-cylinder baffles on this data sheet...

http://www.eci2fly.com/exp/parallelcyl_tds.pdf

gil in Tucson
 
ECI Cylinder Baffles

The ones currently produced are the inner cylinder baffles. There will be a design/drawing of the outer bafflel that will be posted on the website within the next few days. It does attach to the existing baffle. Basically if you have built an RV,, the modification to the existing baffle will be a cake walk for all you talented builders.
 
Thanks...

Joe T said:
The ones currently produced are the inner cylinder baffles. There will be a design/drawing of the outer bafflel that will be posted on the website within the next few days. It does attach to the existing baffle. Basically if you have built an RV,, the modification to the existing baffle will be a cake walk for all you talented builders.

Thanks Joe,

I'll look for the templates

...are you an ECI employee by any chance?

gil A
 
The ones currently produced are the inner cylinder baffles. There will be a design/drawing of the outer bafflel that will be posted on the website within the next few days. It does attach to the existing baffle. Basically if you have built an RV,, the modification to the existing baffle will be a cake walk for all you talented builders.

I also have the new 360 ECI tapered cylinders and have just received my Vans baffle kit. And of course I forgot about the tapered fins and that the stock kit won't fit these. So glad to find this reference to the templates as a retrofit. But where exactly on what site do I find these templates? Can you post a link?

Walter
 
baffles

I have found myself in the unfortunate position of having an ECI engine with tapered cylinders. How did you resolve the problem with the baffles?
 
baffles

Yes, for the past 19yrs.


Joe T

Joe,
Would you please post the link for the baffle drawings associated with the tapered cylinders. I have an ECI engine coming and my vans baffle kit will need to be modified.
 
The Fig. 2 image is vector-based. So if you zoom in on it in your PDF reader software, it will enlarge clearly. You can then print the enlarged area using the "current view" option.
 
Type of aluminum?

The ones currently produced are the inner cylinder baffles. There will be a design/drawing of the outer bafflel that will be posted on the website within the next few days. It does attach to the existing baffle. Basically if you have built an RV,, the modification to the existing baffle will be a cake walk for all you talented builders.


Joe... what exactly is MPP-1427?
Is it an ECI specific reference?
Or is it specific to Airmotive Engineering, who made the drawing?
Is it plain ol' 5052-H32 to the rest of us?
If it's 5052-H32, it's only available as 4 by 6 ft sheets from AC Spruce... is there another good substitute?

NOTE 2:
MATERIAL: MPP-1427, COMPOSITION III, TYPE 2
ALTERNATE MATERIAL: 5052-H32 ALUMINU M
THICKNESS: .032

gil A
 
Relax

Come on guys, you just built an entire airplane and can make/modify a piece to fit. My neighbor has the ECI with tapered fin cylinders and doesn't look like that big of deal.
 
Come on guys, you just built an entire airplane and can make/modify a piece to fit. My neighbor has the ECI with tapered fin cylinders and doesn't look like that big of deal.

Yeah, but I hate it when doing the baffles takes longer than an entire wing. Actually, I am just upgrading to a bigger engine right now. The first time around, I built the baffles from scratch with just plans. Now, I just want to get back flying and am not too proud to take any possilbe shortcuts...
 
Thanks, and I just printed it off. Now all I have to do is find a microscope to read that figure 2. My reading glasses don't quite do it...

Walter

Call me stupid, but I can't figure out how these extensions as shown on the ECI website are to fit these tapered fin cylinders and how they attach to the Vans baffles. Does someone have any pics or can offer any further instructions on how to use these.

Walter
 
RE:And I thought the baffles were done?????

Call me stupid, but I can't figure out how these extensions as shown on the ECI website are to fit these tapered fin cylinders and how they attach to the Vans baffles. Does someone have any pics or can offer any further instructions on how to use these.

Walter

I have just completed the (or so I thought) baffles for my ECI Titian IOX-360
and did note the problem of the tapered barrels making a good seal with the Van's kit. After viewing the drawing on ECi web site and think I can see how they will work.

In a nut shell the tension rod flange on the inner baffle would be cut off from the Van's part and then the ECi modification part would be riveted to it using the three flanges on the radius portion of the part. The flange of the radius would then hug the tapper portion of the barrel/the flange with the hole in it would be the new tension rod mount point.

Easy as pie don't you think.....NOT.....at least for me.:eek: I was so happy today knowing that my one week baffle project was done after five weeks of work (I decided to build a plenum). Oh well another day or two or......to get this right will be very small in the big scheme of things.

Man I am glad I read this thread as it cleared up a question I had with the fit of the lower inner baffle to the tappered cylinder.

Frank @ sgu RV7A 97% ..no 96% done...90% to go:D
 
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I have just completed the (or so I thought) baffles for my ECI Titian IOX-360
and did note the problem of the tapered barrels making a good seal with the Van's kit. After viewing the drawing on ECi web site and think I can see how they will work.

In a nut shell the tension rod flange on the inner baffle would be cut off from the Van's part and then the ECi modification part would be riveted to it using the three flanges on the radius portion of the part. The flange of the radius would then hug the tapper portion of the barrel/the flange with the hole in it would be the new tension rod mount point.

Easy as pie don't you think.....NOT.....at least for me.:eek: I was so happy today knowing that my one week baffle project was done after five weeks of work (I decided to build a plenum). Oh well another day or two or......to get this right will be very small in the big scheme of things.

Man I am glad I read this thread as it cleared up a question I had with the fit of the lower inner baffle to the tappered cylinder.

Frank @ sgu RV7A 97% ..no 96% done...90% to go:D

OK, I think the light is coming on a bit for me. The round flange is at the base of the cylinders, and the tabs attach to the old baffle curved shroud. The part with the hole where the rod attaches has the bottom part slanted down towards the base of the cylinder fitting tight to the tapered fins and acting as a dam for the air.

So then the tapered fin portion of the cylinder does not end up with baffle shroud tight against the fins. It is only the dam that is tight. The round flange at the base also works as a dam not allowing the air to escape at the base.

Am I correct now in how I am looking at these? Or am I off on a wild path again.

Walter
 
OK, I think the light is coming on a bit for me. The round flange is at the base of the cylinders, and the tabs attach to the old baffle curved shroud. The part with the hole where the rod attaches has the bottom part slanted down towards the base of the cylinder fitting tight to the tapered fins and acting as a dam for the air.

So then the tapered fin portion of the cylinder does not end up with baffle shroud tight against the fins. It is only the dam that is tight. The round flange at the base also works as a dam not allowing the air to escape at the base.

Am I correct now in how I am looking at these? Or am I off on a wild path again.

Walter

Walter

You are on the right path.....but......

I called ECi this AM and their tech folks gave me a phone number of a fellow (AP) who has worked on this problem. So I called him and he said that rather than build the adapter he has had good success tightening the tension rod on the Van's stock baffles to the point that the inner/lower cylinder baffle will pull into the cylinder barrel. He also indicated that it is imperative to use adhesive silicone to close up all the other gaps. Having got my baffles done except for this part I can see where these gaps exsist.

YMMV but I will follow his recommendations. He also said they have had great success with using a plenum to top off the baffles. I am glad I went the extra mile.......(ten miles)......to build a plenum.

Frank @ SGU RV7A Baffling still!!!!!!!!!!and I thought I was done:D
 
Walter

You are on the right path.....but......

I called ECi this AM and their tech folks gave me a phone number of a fellow (AP) who has worked on this problem. So I called him and he said that rather than build the adapter he has had good success tightening the tension rod on the Van's stock baffles to the point that the inner/lower cylinder baffle will pull into the cylinder barrel. He also indicated that it is imperative to use adhesive silicone to close up all the other gaps. Having got my baffles done except for this part I can see where these gaps exsist.

YMMV but I will follow his recommendations. He also said they have had great success with using a plenum to top off the baffles. I am glad I went the extra mile.......(ten miles)......to build a plenum.

Frank @ SGU RV7A Baffling still!!!!!!!!!!and I thought I was done:D

Thanks for the advice. Now that I finally better understand how the ECI extensions fit, I will try cut some out and see how they fit.

If you learn anymore from ECI or other ideas, please let us know.

Walter
 
tapered cylinders and baffling

I am installing the old baffling onto the new cylinders with tapered fins and am looking for an easier way than all the cuts and bends ECi shows on their drawing. Has anyone come up with an easier way?

Also, I was just on the ECi website and they have installation manuals for their engines and RVs. I checked out the RV-8 one and in the section on inter-cylinder baffles they show red RTV being used to seal the baffles! There's even a nice picture of a lower inter-cylinder baffle all sealed up! The cylinder instructions didn't say anything about sealing them, and my intake pipes and exhaust pipes are already installed so I guess they'll have to come off so I can RTV things.

Strongly worded letter to follow!
 
IOX-360

I have an ECI IOX-360 and will be putting a Vans baffle kit with the ECI Mod. to it, on. Joe is correct this is not a big leap on the face of the moon.
It is sheet metal 101... It is well worth the exta work to get a good engine like this on my bird. If you count the screw-ups and reduos on the rest of the kit. Its is but a blink of the eye. Do you love your work?
I think Loe hair is getting thin in spots lets cut him some slack here..
and no I don not work for ECI and if I thought there was a better kit
than Jimmys I'd have it, They know that its why they work so hard and smile!!
Your nas always REA III #80888
 
Go with the ECI instructions

As per the previous posts, I initially fretted too, about how to do this. But once I figured out the instructions, it was very easy to make these, and it worked out very well. It's also the satisfaction of knowing you did it right.

Walter
 
I'm doing the ECI baffles right now and have found two tricks and a tip for ECI's closure design (so far). The first trick I used was to simply cut pieces of 3/4" angle and rivet them to both parts rather than trying to cut and bend tabs all in one piece. Just plain easier and I feel better that the vibration won't lead to cracking. The second trick was rather than trying to do a lip with multiple radii to fit across the tapered fins, I simply cut my piece at an angle and did a 90 degree bend. I also found that the piece as drawn doesn't quite fit Vans standard baffle kit correctly. Specifically where the curved portion that runs around the barrel bends to run across the cylinder fins, the drawing shows about 1/2" of material before the lip begins. I think it needs to step up immediately from the bend to the lip by about an 1/8 of an inch. Bottom line, donate a few manila folders to the cause and try a some cut outs first.
 
Todd - can you post a few pictures? I think the biggest problem for me is visualizing the parts and how they fit.

I've been reading mechanical drawings for 30 + years and they still sometimes throw me. The ECi drawing is a mystery to me.
 
Does anyone have any pictures of this baffle mod installed on an engine?? I totally agree with Bubblehead in that the drawing is a total mystery. I did make one using the flat pattern as a guide and for the life of me I don't see how it could possibly work. HELP please!!!!
 
I made the baffle mod per the ECI drawing and they didn't fit on vans baffle. So I made my own using a combination of the ideas from the ECI drawing and my own design. I spent some time making templates from paperboard. The result was good. Cylinder temps are good. I might still have the templates. I will check the hangar this weekend. I will also get some pictures.
Aaron
 
Aaron,

Could you send me a copy? If so, I would be more than happy to draw them up and post them on web site so they are out there for everyone.

Thanks!

BTW, good timing for this post, I've been looking at the ECi drawing in preperation for my engine.
 
Aaron,

Could you send me a copy? If so, I would be more than happy to draw them up and post them on web site so they are out there for everyone.

Thanks!

BTW, good timing for this post, I've been looking at the ECi drawing in preperation for my engine.

Bill
I will be happy to send you a copy of the templates. I just hope I still have them. It has been a couple of years since did the baffles. I will get down to the hangar this weekend.
Aaron
 
Me too!

I hope you can post that info when you get he drawing templates done. I can't even seem to find the original info on the ECI site. All the links point to old addresses.
 
I hope you can post that info when you get he drawing templates done. I can't even seem to find the original info on the ECI site. All the links point to old addresses.
That is the plan.

Click here for the ECi Drawing and scroll to page 4.
 
I just sent Bill an email.
I went out to the hangar this morning before work for a short flight. (an hour drive one way for phase one. but that is another thread) I found 3 out of the four templates. I will attempt to remake the fourth. Templates are nothing elegant but worked for me I will pull the cowl and take some pictures. Will trace the templates on a manila envelope and send to Bill and anybody else who wants them. If Bill can post the templates that are dimensionally correct that would be great.
Aaron
 
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RE: ECi Baffle Pix.....

Hi

Here are some pictures of my fabrication of the tappered cyclinder flanges as planned by ECi





I then used silicone to enclose the flange to web portion of the baffle and also used silicone to creat a tight seal along the bottom edge of the curved baffle to the body of the cylinder.


Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A ... N74BZ ... Flying
 
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The pictures really help

I see how they work now. They just close off the end of the baffle, but do not do anything to move the curved baffle tight against the cylinder.

Thanks for posting the pictures. You should send those to ECI. Maybe they'll add them to their documentation.
 
I took some pictures. Only one came out OK. It looks like the template is the same for 1,2 and 3 cylinder. Cylinder 4 is different. My old scanner is not compatible with Vista. I can fool it to scan a picture but not a document so it is not dimensionally correct. Bla Bla Bla. I will send a copy of the templates to Bill tomorrow.
001ud.jpg

baffle1.jpg
 
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ECI taper jugs

Just a quick up date. I went to ECI's web page, made a copy of the drawing to full scale not just strait copy. Of the Mod. for the cooling baffles.
Made a transfer onto hevy clear plastic sheet. Cut that out, lay it on a sheet of .032. Traced that and cut them out. Only screwed one up a little "could have used it but, picky ME!" Bent them to shape and riveted to baffle.
With only a little filing to fit cylinder radius better, "done"...
It took an houre to lay out and maybe another 3-4 to bend, rivet and file, a good days work with primer...
Thanks yours as allways R.E.A. III #80888
 
It sure would be nice to just buy a CNC'd pre-punched/ pre-bent set of baffle adapters for the tapered cylinders.

ECI needs to strike a deal with Vans to include these "pre-punched parts" in the baffling kit. I've got my work cut out for me.

I would like to say thank you to all those who contributed to this thread. A picture and experience is worth a round of drinks in Oshkosh, in 2010 (I hope):p


Update, took me 8 hours to make (pattern, cutting, filing, and drilling, and final adjustments)
 
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AJ,

Now that I finally have an engine and got my scanner working, I was able to scan your drawing. I will put it where anyone can down load it before the end of the week. (Maybe Doug would like to host that drawing so it doesn't sit on a private web site. Hint, hint, hint)

Tonight I printed a copy and started making those end blockers.

After fitting them in place I realized it would be easy to make pattern for a piece that would allow you to cut off the part of the baffle that wraps around the cylinder base and rivet on a piece that follows the cylinder contour.

Has anyone done this? That sure sounds a lot simpler.

The big question is how are the CHTs with the standard ECi baffle mod?
 
Does anyone know the new link to the ECI plans for baffle motto tapered cylinder fins?

Thanks in advance.
 
The ECI template doesn't fit well

Paul,

I have a copy of the ECI document, which I can email you if you'd like. But, I found that ECI's baffle mod template didn't fit the geometry of the baffles very well. I ended up making own custom fit ones, which came out great, and my recommendation to you would be to take that route as well.

The way I did mine was in two pieces per cylinder, similar to what AMURRAY did (see his sketches in post #37).

I started by cutting the inner diameter of the side part to match the outer diameter of the cylinder (5-3/8"). I then held it in place tightly against the cylinder and the baffle, and traced the outline of the baffle onto the side part. Note that the baffle doesn't trace a constant radius arc. It widens near the top, which is why it really demands in-place fitting to get it right. With that contour traced on your part, you can now cut and bend the flanges, and drill and cleco them to the baffle.

I then made the tapered bottom part as a separate piece, also fit in-place, which is pretty straight forward. The two parts get riveted to the baffle, as well as to each other, to keep everything nice and stiff, again in a similar way as shown in AMURRAY's sketch.
 
I realize this is an old thread, but...

I have the ECI tapered fin cylinders on my RV-7 and have been debating whether or not to perform this baffle mod. In my view it's not worth the trouble.

If your perform this mod, you are simply forming a cylindrical baffle around the tapered fins and creating a fairly large area where the cooling air is allowed to bypass the cylinder cooling fins, and thus wasted just like a large leak.

Instead, I will pull the baffles to follow the taper of the cylinder fins as best I can and then seal up the triangular gaps at the base of the cylinders with high-temp RTV, just like all the other baffle gaps. This creates the most efficient use of the cooling air by forcing most of it to run through the cylinder cooling fins.

The ECI technical data sheet allows for this:

"10.0 Cylinder Baffles: Due to the shape of the tapered fin on the barrel, special attention should be taken to ensure the front and rear engine baffles (supplied by the airframe manufacturer) are properly sealed. One method is to use Figure 1 and Figure 2 to build extensions and attach them to the original baffles. Some builders have successfully pulled the existing baffles down without extensions with good results."

Obviously, the best solution would be to modify the original design of the baffles to tightly wrap around the tapered cylinder fins without any gaps.
 
Tapered Cylinder Baffle Wraps

I read through this thread previously and had planned to make the baffle wrap end caps on my ECI cylinders, but really wanted to have baffle wraps that make contact with the cylinders all the way around, just like they are supposed to be. My idea is to cut off the old straight baffle wraps and rivet new ones in their place. I plan to use flush rivets, mainly because I think the nested dimples with add strength to the riveted joints, hopefully 4 1/8th" rivets on each wrap.

It took me awhile to come up with a flat pattern that would fit around the tapered cylinders. They must be curved in order to fit the slightly cone shaped cylinders. At first I tried math solutions to come up with the arc needed to come up with the curved shape. That did not work for me... So I finally just kept making cardboard templates until I had some that worked OK.

Below I will post some photos that should save others considerable work if they should want to give this a try.

Today I finally got all four of them to a close enough configuration that I had to make the big commitment and cut the old straight baffle wraps off in order to do the final tweaking of the bends on the new ones. I have not riveted them on yet so there could still be an unhappy end to this story but I think it is going to be OK.

Some notes:

Cylinder 4 baffle wrap is quite a bit longer than the other 3 cylnders so it requires more curve to make it fit. If I have any problems getting the baffle pieces back on the engine, it will be on #4. This baffle seems to be the hardest one to get in it's mounting position anyway, adding the curved baffle wrap may make it more difficult. When I get that part done, I will report back here.

Cylinder 3 and 4 baffle wraps required a difficult, double, cone shaped bend to make the offset that closes up the gap where the wrap starts, (hopefully the photos will make sense of this). At least it was difficult for me, working only with a vice and some seamers etc. I did not use a bending break which I am sure would produce much cleaner looking bends, but I think what I have made will work fine. Just not quite as pretty as I would like them to be.

Cylinders 1 and 2 have very short baffle wraps and only needed a 90 degree bend with the end cut at an angle to make them work.

It is quite easy to bend the tabs the wrong direction, I made quite a few mistakes. You have to take into account the orientation of the curve, in order to get the bend correct. Taking the flat pattern, after bending it with seamers, to the vice during bending was very helpful. The file folder material I used bent up quite nicely with the seamers to help me visualize the bends when making them, but I still bent some the wrong way:(

I hope this saves someone a bunch of time that would otherwise be required to figure this out. It seems to me that ECI should make some well engineered flat patterns for replacement baffle wraps, then riveting them in place of the old baffle wraps would be much simpler than making those end caps, and I think it is a much better solution to the problem.

Only time will tell how well the riveted connections hold up. I have seen photos of cracks in the original baffles where the wraps start, so I will have to keep an eye on them. Getting the bends just right should eliminate much need for tension to hold them in place and that may help keep them from cracking or breaking.

Note: The double bend on the cyl 4 wrap needs a shim where it rivets to the baffle. It just came out that way, and I could not see a reasonable solution that I could do with the crude bending equipment I am using.

IMG_0677_zpsf1e46baf.jpg


IMG_0678_zps1706ea0b.jpg


Pattern above is for cylinder 4.

IMG_0679_zps7b2fee16.jpg


Number 4 cyl wrap

IMG_0680_zpsee05dd87.jpg




IMG_0681_zps0614be5b.jpg


Cylider 4 wraps side by side, above photo and below also.

IMG_0680_zpsee05dd87.jpg


Cylinder 3 is much shorter, but requires the double bend, (although I suspect there are probably other ways to deal with that...

IMG_0682_zps7ab37868.jpg


Cyl 3

IMG_0683_zps85bf037d.jpg


Cyls 1 and 2 are much easier to make, just an angle cut on the end.

Like this.

IMG_0685_zpsdb8c7f02.jpg


Like I said above, this will not be considered a success until they get riveted in position, and then see how they do over time. They do close up the gaps to a point where putting some silicone in the remaining gaps will be a much easier to accomplish.

Randall in Sedona
 
I think having the baffles closer to the fins is better. I'm redoing my baffles now and decided to use the ECi method - we'll be working on them this weekend so we might change our mind yet.

I laid out the ECi template in CAD and Bill at Up North Aviation made 6 of them for me (4 cylinders plus two "oops") for a very reasonable price. He has the CAD drawing so can make more. The ones he sent me are beautifully cut, matched the template exactly and were so reasonably priced there was no reason for me to even seriously consider cutting them out myself.

I'll take some pictures of them this weekend and post them.

If anyone wants the CAD drawing drop me an email [email protected].
 
Yep me too!

I think we had one of the first sets of the tapered cylinders on a "IO-360".
Joe and Jimmy helped us load it in the back of a pick-up from their loading-dock. It is not that hard to make the baffles fit. It just takes a little time to get the shape you want. The kit comes with good instructions if I remember. I was fretting it too, before I got to it. It turned out to be no big deal..
Hope this helps. Yours as always. R.E.A. III #80888
 
Those cylinders are crying for silicone wraps and composite backing.

VW's have similar tapered cylinders. These baffles should have exit lips, but the picture should serve to crank your idea machine.

 
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