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Should a student buy an RV

keithaloft

I'm New Here
Ok, not yet: thinking about it.
I am a student pilot. Flight schools in my area are insanely booked up, time is very hard to arrange, instructors keep getting hired away...
I am thinking of getting a plane, specifically an RV-4, and then finding a CFI to train me in it hopefully through my IFR (I'm maybe half through my private pilot training). [I'm expecting to build an RV-4 in about a year, so this has me flying, getting familiar with the plane, and having one to compare/contrast with as I build perhaps).
Things I've already thought of (and have begun researching):
Confirm capabilities/condition of plane. Get professional opinions. This is pretty important ;-)
What's the insurance going to run? Other expenses?
Try to find CFI's that might be interested in this arrangement, and get an idea of their price and availability.
I realize there's a possibility to lose an amount of money in this process that one couldn't lose through a flight school approach... that's not trivial to me, but it's just one consideration.
If I tie it down and cover it (there are no hangars in my universe), is that okay?
Thoughts & ideas welcome.
Thanks!
Keith
 
Please rethink this..........

RV-4 is NOT a good selection for primary instruction. For primary instruction you will need COMPLETE dual controls. Most RV-4s do not have rear cockpit rudder pedals, and even the ones that do, do not have rear cockpit brakes.

The instructor from the rear seat cannot see what you are doing. I doubt seriously that any instructor would consider this arrangement. And if he/she did, I would not consider that instructor.
 
I bought into a cherokee partnership before I ever took a lesson and its worked out fantastic for me. Working on instrument rating now and enjoying flying while I build my RV-7. Owning isn't for everyone, but I think its the best way to affordably learn to fly and then have an airplane to enjoy when your ticket gets punched.

WRT to the RV-4, make sure it has full dual controls for your CFI (pedals and brakes) as I think that's rare to find in the 4. They're also going to need to be comfortable flying it and landing from the backseat until you figure it all out. In my circles its not hard to find CFIs willing to instruct in experimentals but that might also be a consideration.
 
There is a reason AF pilot training started in a side by side T-37/T -6 then to the tandem T -38. You learn allot watching IP demos.
 
All USN trainers are tandem ... I didn't want to SEE the student, I just wanted to SEE the result!

Not to be discounting the obvious issues with the RV-4 for initial training.

Just sayin' ;)
 
Tandem makes it harder for the IP to physically bash the student...kinder, gentler, military. (Fear, sarcasm, and ridicule still possible, thank goodness) :)
 
I would think that having an RV-4 would make your CFI problem worse:

If I understand you correctly, you are having a problem finding a CFI because there are so few of them.

Finding one who can and/or will train you in the RV-4 reduces that pool of candidate CFI's.
 
Keith, I'm in your neck of the woods, so I understand the situation with respect to CFI and flight school availability - it's utterly bonkers.

I've never flown an RV-4, so I can't speak to that airplane as a trainer, but as the others have said, finding one that is kitted out for training, and then finding a CFI who is the right physical proportions (weight/balance) with enough time and experience in type, who has availability - that's gonna be a tall order.

Insurance will not be awful, but it's not gonna be cheap, either. Talk to a couple of agencies about this.

You said you're halfway through your training, but not what you've been flying - I suspect typical training aircraft right?

Consider finishing your training as you've started, while you shop for an RV-4, or, at the very very least, switch to training in a tailwheel aircraft NOW where you can find one available for rental. This will build your tailwheel skills, which will serve you well in all aspects of your flying. It also gives you time to complete your training while you're searching - you don't want to just stop flying. It's a perishable skill.

There's a few places out there that do TW training and a number of independents that you can ask around about. They're out there.

Beyond that - you're in MD - there's a flying club or two out of GAI you could join and the one of the two I'm thinking of allows you to bring your own CFI if you want. Send me a PM and I'll give you some details on it. There are also some clubs at FDK and JYO, but JYO may be a huge hike for you.

Clubs provide you some flexibility that normal flight schools don't, they give you a window into ownership without so much of the financial commitment, and generally, if done right, "feel" like owning a plane. It's often a great way to go.

Happy to chat with you directly. Shoot me a PM and we can talk.
 
Bad idea. As Mel said, there are no rear brakes and very few will have rear rudder pedals. It will be almost impossible for the instructor to see the panel and few if any will have the traditional 6 pack. You will not be able to find a DPE anywhere in the area willing to give you a check ride in it. My buddy could not find a DPE to give him his instrument check ride in an RV8 and he has a couple thousand hours flying it. I'm also pretty sure your insurance company will require the instructor to have a bunch of RV4 and tail wheel hours.

Suggestion....there are three flying clubs and three flight schools not far from you at GAI. Flying clubs are a lot less expensive to fly in than the flight schools. I know a few excellent CFI's in the area that instruct because they enjoy it not building hours, shoot me a PM if you would like some local direction.
 
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I would think that having an RV-4 would make your CFI problem worse:

If I understand you correctly, you are having a problem finding a CFI because there are so few of them.

Finding one who can and/or will train you in the RV-4 reduces that pool of candidate CFI's.

I would imagine that it reduces the pool to zero give or take 1.
 
I owned 2 RV-4s and had been an active transition training instructor and can concur that I would not do any initial training in an -4. Look for a nice cheap Cessna 150!!
 
My son did his PPL training in our 6A this summer. While learning curve is a bit steeper than a spam can, very doable. One caveat is that GREAT care must be taken to insure the instructor and student be gentle on the nose gear. This somewhat interrupts the learning via mistakes path that could be followed on a different plane. Insurance was insane. I was paying $900 for full coverage and the new quote allowing training was $4500. Only one carrier offers this, so they charge whatever they want. I ended up dropping to liability only. If I can get him to 100+ hours, I can get back to reasonable rates.

Good luck.

Larry
 
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Yes, you can get you PPL in a side-by-side RV but ain't nobody gonna want to do it in a Tandem. How you gonna see this or that?
Your insurance is going to be sky HIGH if not impossible to get.
One of my daughters just got here her PPL in spam cans and did transition training with an approved RV-6A transition instructor. I wanted her to get the experience of a different RV and instructor.
But didn't get to land on grass.
So now it's my job to get her on a grass down hill runway with trees on both sides and end. Cause my hangar is on grass.
Good luck with your flying.
Art
 
Training

When I think of all the airplanes that comprised most of the US training fleets in the post WWII era I can't stop laughing.
Most of the Pipers did not have functioning brakes. They would hold for a quick runup most of the time but pretty worthless the rest of the time. Many Luscombes and Cessna 120/140's etc. with no right side brakes were used for training.
My father trained and soloed in a Luscombe 8A, I never heard of a Luscombe with right side brakes until recently.
Then there are the Tiger Moths and many others with no brakes and a tailskid.
I no longer instruct but have done transition training in Glasair taildragger, Cessna 140, Luscombe, Pitts S2B, Starduster II, Stearman etc.
The people who can't do this are not real instructors but pretend instructors, with no real interest in providing quality instruction.
For those who think the visibility is bad in the back seat of RV4 try sitting in the front seat of a Pitts, Skybolt, Starduster II etc.
 
Ah...The good ol' days.......

When I think of all the airplanes that comprised most of the US training fleets in the post WWII era I can't stop laughing.
Most of the Pipers did not have functioning brakes. They would hold for a quick runup most of the time but pretty worthless the rest of the time. Many Luscombes and Cessna 120/140's etc. with no right side brakes were used for training.

when airplanes didn't have dual brakes and lawyers weren't advertising on TV every 10 minutes..."Call me and we'll get you EVERYTHING YOU DESERVE."

The society we live in today is quite different.
 
well...

Mel, you beat me to the reply!

Yes, the environment is very different nowadays...

I guess he forgot to mention some of the old planes with rotary engines and NO throttle...just turn the ignition on and off...

I'll bet that the ride to the airport was on a one pedaled bike, in the snow, and uphill both ways, too!:D
 
I think you are going to find a hard time finding a CFI with a tailwheel endorsement. They exist, but not at a normal pilot factory.
 
Tandem makes it harder for the IP to physically bash the student...kinder, gentler, military. (Fear, sarcasm, and ridicule still possible, thank goodness) :)

On the contrary, very easy to hit him in back of the head with your kneeboard.
 
Tailwheel Instructors

The Tailwheel instructors are available. You may find one close by or you may find the closest is a long ways away. EAA used to keep a list of taildragger instructors.
There are at least two well known schools in NJ/ PA that have been around for a long time.
Cub Flyers in Hartford WI had a fatal accident recently so I don't know what their short term plans are. They have been training new pilots in Piper J3 for quite a few years.
There are places in Phoenix area and LA area that do taildragger training.
There is no doubt in my mind that you would find much better quality instructors at a school that uses taildraggers.
Point to remember that there is no RV3 or 4 A model.
 
Tailwheel Training

Couple of examples in northeast:
Andover Flight Academy, Andover NJ Established 1987. One instructor has over 10,000 hours tailwheel time. Stearman, Chipmunk, Super Cub, J3 Cub

Van Sant Airport Erwinna PA.
Stearman, Cub, Cessna 170, Citabria (and glider)
 
Do it right

Get your PPL is some sort of rental aircraft either through a flight school or there are many people renting planes privately and will have an instructor available. (My wife got her PPL this way because the schools were a pita).

THEN, get your tail endorsement the same way. You've already heard the reasons the 4 won't work and they are 100% accurate.

I had a guy fly with me in my 7 who needed some insurance time for his 4. It worked perfect because he was flying right seat so the control orientation was perfect. 2 hours and he was there. He was an airline pilot who already had his tail ticket.
 
....Point to remember that there is no RV3 or 4 A model.

I don't know where the RV3 comment came from but there are around 300 flying and several being built now. In fact, I'm building one. These are single seat airplanes, so unsuitable for the OP's purpose.

I'd think that any of the side by side RVs would suffice regardless of nosewheel or tailwheel, but it will be easier to find a nosewheel instructor than a tailwheel one.

There is one RV intended for training. It also has relatively decent performance and absolutely delightful handling characteristics. It's side by side with a nosewheel. It's the RV-12iS.

Dave
 
Yes, you can get you PPL in a side-by-side RV but ain't nobody gonna want to do it in a Tandem. How you gonna see this or that?
Your insurance is going to be sky HIGH if not impossible to get.
One of my daughters just got here her PPL in spam cans and did transition training with an approved RV-6A transition instructor. I wanted her to get the experience of a different RV and instructor.
But didn't get to land on grass.
So now it's my job to get her on a grass down hill runway with trees on both sides and end. Cause my hangar is on grass.
Good luck with your flying.
Art

I just finished doing all my PPL training in a 7GCAA. It really wasn't bad at all. In the back the instructor could quickly feel if I was out of coordination. Is the visibility that much worse in an RV backseat?
 
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Get a Piper Cub for training. Cheapish, and I guess easy to sell at end if you want to.
Plus you will be a much better stick and rudder pilot at the end.
 
My son recently soloed a rental Cessna 152. I asked my insurance agent about when I could add him on my Rv7a and she said rates become reasonable after 150 hours.
 
I owned 2 RV-4s and had been an active transition training instructor and can concur that I would not do any initial training in an -4. Look for a nice cheap Cessna 150!!

Best advice. Or better, find a friend and buy 1/2. Not sure about getting your IFR in a 150, though. If that’s your ultimate goal, find a 172 or a PA28.
 
WWII training

Those old tandem trainers also killed almost as many pilots in training As we lost in combat

Look at the numbers
 
[SNIP]
The people who can't do this are not real instructors but pretend instructors, with no real interest in providing quality instruction.
For those who think the visibility is bad in the back seat of RV4 try sitting in the front seat of a Pitts, Skybolt, Starduster II etc.

I find these remarks hilarious. First, it is an FAR requirement that if instruction is given the aircraft being used must have dual controls, the fact that most RV-4's lack dual controls immediately disqualifies the plane from being used for primary instruction (oh, and also for Flight Reviews). Second, giving transition training to an already licensed pilot in a plane lacking dual brakes is in no way comparable to doing primary training with a student pilot, particularly in a taildragger.
 
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