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PA-28-180 to RV12 - Am I crazy?

JFCRV12

Well Known Member
Hello all,

A while back, I posted I was considering building an RV. While that's still the plan, it isn't happening anytime soon. I simply do not have the time. But I do have time to fly. As such, I bought a Piper Cherokee 180 in Oct. While I love the plane and it's very nice, I'm seriously considering a 'side grade?' to an RV-12.

Here's my thinking: My long x-country is from KHAO to KUOX (Ole Miss). That's 442 SM and likely would make 3 times per year during school year to visit daughter. I've done in my Cherokee and it's simple trip and very comfortable. I've yet to have someone sit in my backseat..net, I guess I don't need it. As I still plan to eventually build, I thought an E-LSA would be a good way to learn into the experimental world. Here are some brief pros/cons. Am I thinking about this right? Understanding the forum I'm on, I expect bias in the answers :)

Vans RV-12 - Pre-owned, it's a wash in terms of acquisition cost vs my PA28.

Pros:
  • Much lower operating costs (mogas, fuel efficiency, own CIs after 2 day course)
  • Incredible visibility in RV-12 vs. PA28
  • Essentially a brand new engine vs. 15 year old overhaul
  • modern avionics and autopilot
  • Strong community and documentation (vs. other experimentals)

Cons
  • Touch slower than PA28
  • 2 seats vs. 4 and significantly less useful load (PA28 is like an SUV)
  • Light weight means much more bouncing in turblence
  • TIGHT nonstop range to KUOX (est. about 17gallons assuming no wind)
  • Higer insurance cost vs. PA28-180?

Probably my biggest concern is the tight range vs. the PA28 and maybe the extra bouncy ride vs. the Cherokee. Any thoughts from the group? Anyone made the move from a Cherokee 180 to an RV-12 for non-LSA related reasons? How'd it go?

Thanks!
John
 
If you can afford the extra cost, consider an RV-9a. It's considerably faster, longer range, and probably about as efficient as a -12.

Dave
 
If you can afford the extra cost, consider an RV-9a. It's considerably faster, longer range, and probably about as efficient as a -12.

Dave

Certainly crossed my mind. One piece appealing to me on the RV-12 is ability to do my own CI/Annual after taking the 2 day course. Not an option on a 2nd owner EAB. But I haven't dismissed the idea by a long shot yet.
 
I agree with Dave. The RV-9A would suit you needs better than the RV-12.

Biggest negative would be the Condition Inspection cost, but it still should be considerably less than your PA-28. Of course you might be able to negotiate that with the original builder/repairman.
 
I agree with Dave. The RV-9A would suit you needs better than the RV-12.

Biggest negative would be the Condition Inspection cost, but it still should be considerably less than your PA-28. Of course you might be able to negotiate that with the original builder/repairman.

Hmm.. Now the research cycle continues! :)
 
I currently own a 1967 Cherokee 180C and have owned it for 8 years now. It's the first airplane I've owned since getting my license back in 2011. My mission has changed since then and is now very similar to yours. I have a kid in college and more soon to enter. I need power, performance, and speed, since I fly out of 5,700 feet elevation and need to fly the front range of the Colorado Rockies. I decided to build (standard build) and July will be three years since starting the build on my RV-7. My finishing kit will crate sometime this month. I've enjoyed every step of the build. No regrets on my choice, either, at least through the build process...haha!

I didn't feel that an RV-12 would really fit my needs.

Hope this helps in some small way!

Ryan
 
Thanks Ryan! It does help. I'm a flat lander so at least I don't have that concern/issue. ...more thinking... There's something tugging me related to the newness of engine, airframe, avionics vs. my Cherokee. But I do have some performance concerns. But again, that's a 3x per year trip vs. 99% of local flying by myself.. BUT, after this Fall, we'll be empty nesters opening up the possibility of more x-countries. so, who knows

I currently own a 1967 Cherokee 180C and have owned it for 8 years now. It's the first airplane I've owned since getting my license back in 2011. My mission has changed since then and is now very similar to yours. I have a kid in college and more soon to enter. I need power, performance, and speed, since I fly out of 5,700 feet elevation and need to fly the front range of the Colorado Rockies. I decided to build (standard build) and July will be three years since starting the build on my RV-7. My finishing kit will crate sometime this month. I've enjoyed every step of the build. No regrets on my choice, either, at least through the build process...haha!

I didn't feel that an RV-12 would really fit my needs.

Hope this helps in some small way!

Ryan
 
Thanks Ryan! It does help. I'm a flat lander so at least I don't have that concern/issue. ...more thinking... There's something tugging me related to the newness of engine, airframe, avionics vs. my Cherokee. But I do have some performance concerns. But again, that's a 3x per year trip vs. 99% of local flying by myself.. BUT, after this Fall, we'll be empty nesters opening up the possibility of more x-countries. so, who knows

Consider the FUN FACTOR ..... I have over 1000 hours in a PA28. They are comfortable, but after about 15 minutes they are boring.

Any 2 seat RV is a thrill to fly every time you fly them. You will drive home from the airport with a smile on your face every time. So that covers 99% of your flying.

If you think you are an airline pilot and fly the panel, then the Piper is for you. If you fly for the the fun of it, then you don't know what fun is, yet..........:D
 
If your PA-28 180 is faster than an RV-12, it can't be by much. The -12 cruises easily 115-120Kts. Fastest 180/Archer I've flown is just about the same.

I do agree with others that the 9/9A is a more appealing cross country machine for the reasons mentioned. The -12 does have two distinct advantages though: It's very roomy, and downward/forward visibility is the best of any low wing I've flown. (leading edge of wing is set back farther). Also insanely easy to board because the step is in front of the wing, and you can step right onto the floor without stepping on seats.

BTW - Dave Gamble in Ohio has a great YouTube channel, RV-12 pilot. You should look him up and maybe get a flight with him. He did a fun video on his RV-12 build also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v57K_JZQy-c
 
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I've been bounced around, a lot in a RV-12 in less than moderate turbulence. a 10 # per square foot loaded wing at full gross that stalls at 45 kt's clean, to make LSA classifications, can be a very bumpy ride.

It's fine if you're retired and can pick the days you want to fly, but it's not fine if you've got getthereitis, IMHO.
 
Exactly! That's why my eye is wandering from the PA28. Gets a bit boring for the local flights.

Consider the FUN FACTOR ..... I have over 1000 hours in a PA28. They are comfortable, but after about 15 minutes they are boring.

Any 2 seat RV is a thrill to fly every time you fly them. You will drive home from the airport with a smile on your face every time. So that covers 99% of your flying.

If you think you are an airline pilot and fly the panel, then the Piper is for you. If you fly for the the fun of it, then you don't know what fun is, yet..........:D
 
I have flown 2-plane formation with PA28-180 and stay right alongside when the big boy pulls power back slightly to minimize his expensive 100LL fuel burn. Climb rates I think are pretty similar. As far as getting bumped around by turbulence, altitude is your best friend. If I?m going somewhere distant, I FP around 10K MSL. Serving cart stays stowed during convection? :D
 
Exactly my concern...the wild ride. And to @mturnerb, correct, the PA28 is a bit faster, but not much really. I see about 135mph in cruise. But the RV-12's visibility sure is nice.

I've been bounced around, a lot in a RV-12 in less than moderate turbulence. a 10 # per square foot loaded wing at full gross that stalls at 45 kt's clean, to make LSA classifications, can be a very bumpy ride.

It's fine if you're retired and can pick the days you want to fly, but it's not fine if you've got getthereitis, IMHO.
 
RV12

I think you are going to need to get an RV12 or you'll have to change your username. :D

You obviously know your mission better than I do, but I'd look for a RV-7 or if budget limits you, an RV-6. They are both amazing machines, and will allow you to do a bit of "upside down" in addition to efficiently buzzing down to see your little girl. And they are much faster than the RV-12 or the Cherokee.
 
The condition inspection can also be done by an A&P mechanic. It might take a bit of effort to find one who'll work with you but it ought to be possible. An AI can also do it, if you like your current AI.

Dave
 
Correct, and I've looked! But then there's that insurance costs increase... My budget is RV-6 as much as I'd like an RV-7. Maybe my best route is to make this the summer of 'rides'. Test

I think you are going to need to get an RV12 or you'll have to change your username. :D

You obviously know your mission better than I do, but I'd look for a RV-7 or if budget limits you, an RV-6. They are both amazing machines, and will allow you to do a bit of "upside down" in addition to efficiently buzzing down to see your little girl. And they are much faster than the RV-12 or the Cherokee.
 
Jim,

That'd be great! Let me know when you feel comfortable and I'll come up (mask and gloves at the ready!) :)

Thanks
John

When COVID settles down you are welcome to fly my 12 that I bought four years ago from original builder in Georgetown, OH... not too far from you.
 
The RV-12iS is more of an ?assembly? than a ?built? Only meaning positive comments.. I?m only finishing the fuselage, but can honestly say that vs the 7 build, if you had all the kits, would go together very quickly. You might decide to fly the PA till your done with the build. I think you will be surprised how quickly you can build it. I didn?t believe it until I started the 12.
 
John,
We have been working with Caleb to do condition inspections on RV?s with his newly minted A&P. He did mine in March on my RV4. He?s local and he?s accessible. I like the RV6 idea. Great airplane.
 
John,
We have been working with Caleb to do condition inspections on RV?s with his newly minted A&P. He did mine in March on my RV4. He?s local and he?s accessible. I like the RV6 idea. Great airplane.

Scott,

Good to know about Caleb, I haven?t met him yet. I?ll shoot you a PM. Would love to connect at airport.

Thanks
John
 
Correct, and I've looked! But then there's that insurance costs increase... My budget is RV-6 as much as I'd like an RV-7. Maybe my best route is to make this the summer of 'rides'. Test

If you end up with an RV6A and do the insurance required time, your insurance should be about the same as your Piper...... mine was.

Check with Gallagher Insurance.... they advertise here on VAF
 
I have a 1973 Cherokee 180 and I built my RV-12. I put about a hundred hours a year on each. I built the ELSA as a hedge against the medical before basic med. That was 8 years ago, and have loved them both equally. I bought the Cherokee in 1985 right after I got my PPL. She?s been from the Bahamas to Catalina Island and Nogales to Detroit. She?s like a member of the family, and definitely my choice for a long cross country. Having said that the RV-12 is like a sports car next to the family sedan. The RV is light on controls, modern avionics and very cheap to operate. As I pass into geezerdom I think the RV-12 Will be there beyond the trusty Cherokee, but the day I bid farewell to either will be a sad day indeed.
 
RV-12 is a rough ride in my experience, even in virtually no turbulence (by that I mean I rarely find a day that is not a rough ride unless up high). Get up high and it is ok, but getting up high is weather dependent.
My previous aircraft was a Chipmunk, and it was slow but very comfortable. The ride is my main unhappiness with the 12 (and inability to turn upside down, but I knew that when I got the 12).
 
From 182 to RV12-iS

I flew 182s for three years (two different partnerships) before buying a newly built RV12-iS seven months ago. I?ve never enjoyed flying more than in the RV.
 
This is good to know! I'll need to look into that possibility for sure. I have a ride lined up for mid-June in a 12 (thanks Jim!) and I have a buddy with a RV-6 (non A). It's clear we all need 2 planes.. One for comfortable X-Countries and one for the other 90-99% joy rides!

If you end up with an RV6A and do the insurance required time, your insurance should be about the same as your Piper...... mine was.

Check with Gallagher Insurance.... they advertise here on VAF
 
[EDIT] -- Ah, I see you're running a UL Power 350IS... That makes more sense now.

How in the world are you getting 125KTAS on 4.7 in an RV-12 let alone 138KTAS? Are the book #s that conservative?

It all depends on how you build your -12, but I have yet to see a PA28 do 138KTAS... or cruise 125KTAS on 4.7 gph. :cool:
 
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JVC,

I'm an aircraft owner wannabe in your area. Went to EAA meetings at KHAO, until I decided buying an existing aircraft was better for me than building.

I may be a potential buyer for your Cherokee if you sell it. Or maybe partner.

I have flown an RV-12 with Van's east coast rep. Very nimble aircraft with excellent modern avionics.

But there are some drawbacks.

1. Very low wing loading - I would expect to bounce around a lot in turbulence, and would expect landing in gusty conditions to be challenging.
2. Didn't care for fuel tank behind seats from a safety standpoint.
3. Visibility was great, but canopy was in head-banging range for a tall pilot, and Garmin screens were rather washed out in bright sunlight.
4. Overall impression of RV-12 was "flimsy". Perhaps all LSA's are. Lots of airframe SBs to comply with.

The RV-12is is a significant improvement in many areas except low wing loading.

Also have flown an RV-9a, which was excellent in many respects. Haven't flown a PA-28, but would like to.

PM me if you'd like to discuss further.

-Paragon
Cincinnati, OH
 
Just what is the skin thickness of the aluminum on a RV-12 to get 750 # vs 1050 or so on a svelte RV-9A ? .020" vs .025" or ???
 
Just what is the skin thickness of the aluminum on a RV-12 to get 750 # vs 1050 or so on a svelte RV-9A ? .020" vs .025" or ???

Nearly all of the skins are 0.025". Section 4 of the KAI lists each of them for reference. There are numerous reasons the 9 has a higher empty weight than the 12, starting with the engine and prop, but it's also a slightly larger aircraft overall (longer wings and bigger fuselage).

With your new acquisition, if you haven't already done so, I recommend buying the drawing USB file drive from Van's.
 
Nearly all of the skins are 0.025". Section 4 of the KAI lists each of them for reference. There are numerous reasons the 9 has a higher empty weight than the 12, starting with the engine and prop, but it's also a slightly larger aircraft overall (longer wings and bigger fuselage).

With your new acquisition, if you haven't already done so, I recommend buying the drawing USB file drive from Van's.

It will be coming with the big build notebook, on rings. Had to go digging in section 43 C and D today.... to get a feel for the layout of the avionics up against the firewall, behind the instrument panel... Backup Battery time for the Skyview. Might need to find a ferry to get her back home.
 
Welp, I did it

Welp, I did it. I sold the PA28. Now the quest to replace begins. First stop is an RV-12 ride!
 
Welp, I did it. I sold the PA28. Now the quest to replace begins. First stop is an RV-12 ride!

Just a fair warning... if you're an older guy that's, ahem, not as svelte as you once were, and two of you go up in the plane climbing, at or near 1320 gross, and then you fly it solo, percentage wise, there is a huge difference in how quickly it climbs.:eek: I'm an old 152 and 172 Cessna passenger, and circling to climb was standard back in the day. Not so with the RV-12, unless you have severe density altitude conditions


The RV grin hasn't been patented yet, but it's very hard to fly one solo and not end up wearing one shortly thereafter. Very hard, if you start off near sea level.
 
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Just a fair warning... if you're an older guy that's, ahem, not as svelte as you once were, and two of you go up in the plane climbing, at or near 1320 gross, and then you fly it solo, percentage wise, there is a huge difference in how quickly it climbs.:eek:

The RV grin hasn't been patented yet, but it's very hard to fly one solo and not end up wearing one shortly thereafter. Very hard, if you start off near sea level.

Field elevation is ~650ft. I?m 6ft 190 and still fair young at 47. Cant wait!
 
Welp, I did it. I sold the PA28. Now the quest to replace begins. First stop is an RV-12 ride!


There has been a lot of RV-12's for sale lately at various outlets. Spend your money wisely.... I've been looking for 20 months, before I finally found what I wanted, in a Legacy model RV-12.
 
Yep - I'll certainly be patient. Still kicking around just biting the bullet and building my own :)

There has been a lot of RV-12's for sale lately at various outlets. Spend your money wisely.... I've been looking for 20 months, before I finally found what I wanted, in a Legacy model RV-12.
 
Yep - I'll certainly be patient. Still kicking around just biting the bullet and building my own :)

If you want to build, and can afford $80k or more, by the time you buy all the tools and extra's, go for it, pride of ownership will be greater.

If you don't have the 1000, to 2000 hours and this is your very first build, buy one that someone else needs to let go of. But be very cognizant that there are a lot of very low time Legacy model RV-12's out there, that probably have under 100 hours, that were hangar queens, getting inspections signed off, that did NOT have a lot of service bulletin updates performed. Lots of doublers added on wings, fuselage, elevator tabs, center brackets inside fuselage that control the flaperons, etc. In other words, a LOT of work to either pay for some AP to do the update, or spend the time doing it yourself.

It may also not have current 2020 ADSB out, or even ADSB IN, or Auto Pilot. So pay attention to what all you might have to perform yourself, or pay for, to bring it up to snuff. The builder knows everything that goes into the plane and where it is. The 2nd owner, like me, is forever getting up to speed and learning where and what everything is. It's experimental, and a very good idea that you are mechanically inclined, if you buy 2nd hand, to keep your plane healthy and with best current engineering practices.
 
She?ll be here next weekend!

Just thought I’d update the thread. She’ll be here next weekend! Completed in Sept 2019, Dynon HDX, Autopilot Knobs :). All service bulletins done including Rotax circlips and the Gear Fork. I’ll still need to do the Nose gear leg and the wheel fairings. Can’t wait!

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Atwwakv8E39y1IFvZW7kASyUFZurBg
 
John -

Excellent. Very pretty airplane. Sorry I couldn't provide RV-12 ride - COVID distancing still in affect. Looks like you made management decision without my help... :D

I'll add you to my Ohio RV-12 driver's list and when COVID subsides we'll gather the group for a fly-out.
 
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Awesome! Love that we have a great network of owners in Ohio already. Yes, another builder local to me was able to provide me with a very expensive ride! :)


John -

Excellent. Very pretty airplane. Sorry I couldn't provide RV-12 ride - COVID distancing still in affect. Looks like you made management decision without my help... :D

I'll add you to my Ohio RV-12 driver's list and when COVID subsides we'll gather the group for a fly-out.
 
Wow! Thanks for the kind words! It helps with motivation with the horrible job of figuring out why the recorded audio is so hideously bad.

It's only a problem if it sounds that bad in your headset. You're way ahead of me on the technology for recording video in any case.
 
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