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The First R409 Customer is flying!

Relentless

Relentless

Well Known Member
I just returned from Anchorage AK where the first customer that ordered an R Series engine from Titan is up and flying. Josh and his crew spent about a week prior to my arrival converting his fuel and electrical system for the installation of Efii. He had to put return fuel ports back to both tanks, install new Andair dual valve, and rewire the electrical to accommodate dual pumps, battery and busses.

I showed up just as the new R409 was installed on the mount to help speed up modification of baffle, intake, and tune the efii system. Working with the owner, his mechanic, Randy Gossa, and the owners son made for a fantastic week!

This is one cool airplane, SQ12 monster cub!
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Link to customers first takeoff solo

Owners son built his first carbon fiber part with me. The new oil cooler duct and airbox turned out perfect. We were all surprised that the oil temp was actually much lower than before using a smaller oil cooler on an engine producing lots more hp...
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Beauty shot of the top of the R409 and AX50 cylinders
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Josh, Randy, and Shawn made quick work of this conversion
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Engine during build
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Here is a shot of one of the bores after 5 hours break-in, perfect!
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The latest ring packs are sealing perfectly, notice how clean the piston is below the oil rings. Once they start running unleaded fuel in this they will find the oil stays really clean between changes.
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The new R409 with Efii weighed in at 282lbs. verses the Superior 400 that the owner removed at 304lbs. The R409 produced 230.1hp on dyno vs the Superior 400 advertized at 215hp. We should have the 400 on our dyno in a few days to get the "real" numbers.
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Here is nice shot of EFii injectors and servo. The lower weight ACE components and Efii make this monster motor the smoothest these guy have ever flown.
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Saw that airplane at Valdez last year, what a monster. Should be even more impressive with the R409.
 
Relentless said:
The new R409 with Efii weighed in at 282lbs. verses the Superior 400 that the owner removed at 304lbs. The R409 produced 230.1hp on dyno vs the Superior 400 advertized at 215hp. We should have the 400 on our dyno in a few days to get the "real" numbers.
Click to expand...

I'd be very interested to hear those numbers! :)
 
Increased thrust static pull by 13-15% over 400

N54SG said:
I'd be very interested to hear those numbers! :)
Click to expand...

Update; The owner called me today in quite a good mood. Seems they have done pull tests with his plane to test props and engine combinations in the past and he claims he has never been able to pull more than 850 lbs with his 400. Sunday after some tweaking with the fuel map he said they could pull 950-980lbs constantly and ultimately broke needle on their 1000lb scale when it maxed out.

What you have to understand about the R409 is that it is not simply the increase in hp but the lower peak torque that makes the Titan R409 pull so hard in the rpm's we operate.:cool:
 
Bank injection?

If I understand EFII correctly, it uses bank injection instead of sequential injection. Is there any way to balance the fuel distribution between the injectors?

Thanks,
Paige
 
PaigeHoffart said:
If I understand EFII correctly, it uses bank injection instead of sequential injection. Is there any way to balance the fuel distribution between the injectors?

Thanks,
Paige
Click to expand...
\
I am going to let Robert answer that question. My cylinders are very closely balanced with EFii but honestly I don't know how they even out so much with a batch fire system. Robert told me sequetial was too expensive and not necessary for our applications?
 
EFII

With electronic injection, the fuel delivery is equal to all cylinders by definition.
Each intake pipe has it's own injector with it's own fuel supply.
The fuel balance between cylinders with the EFII injection is light years ahead of mechanical alternatives. You can flow balance mechanical injection systems pretty well at one operating point, typically max power. But the flow balance falls apart as the power level is decreased, and is really bad at very low power, idle, and starting conditions. This is never the case with the electronic injection.

Robert
 
Relentless said:
What you have to understand about the R409 is that it is not simply the increase in hp but the lower peak torque that makes the Titan R409 pull so hard in the rpm's we operate.:cool:
Click to expand...

Horsepower (the ability to do work) = (torque x RPM)/5252, so it is difficult to understand how lower peak torque results in more thrust.

rcpaisley said:
With electronic injection, the fuel delivery is equal to all cylinders by definition.
Click to expand...

Each injector assembly is supplied at the same pressure, and they are (in this batch fire system) opened and closed with the same electrical signal. However, that does not mean they deliver the same fuel quantity. In the end analysis, an electronic injector is still just a body with a hole in the end. Unless a vendor runs a great many injectors on a test bench in order to assemble a flow-matched set, the match is dependent on the manufacturer's flow tolerance. Plus or minus 6% (a 12% range) is a common specification, brand new, although the typical random set will be better. How much better does it need to be? Assume 8 GPH. A good GAMI spread has all cylinders passing peak EGT within a 0.2 GPH window, so 0.2/8 = 2.5% range.

With use, an electromagnetic injector is subject to dirt and deposit issues, as is a mechanical system's nozzle. 'Nuff said.

Let's assume you get a perfectly matched set, and they never get dirty. Will all cylinders reach peak EGT at the same time? Probably not. Identical fuel/air ratios for all cylinders is also dependent on air delivery. Again, unless somebody took great care to flow match cylinder heads, air delivery may or may not be identical.

The SDS controller has a rich/lean panel control knob. It works pretty much like the familiar red handle, but with less range. With it, an Efii owner should be able to determine a GAMI spread, just like with a mechanical injection. Some installations will be good out of the box, and some won't. If poor, you'll need to swap injectors, just as we do with nozzle restrictors.
 
I suspect Kevin meant that the peak torque is lower RPM wise------(but your are still the eagle eyed one)-------even if what he said was ????
 
lower peak torque
Click to expand...
So, someone define this term so we can know what everyone is saying!

What are you saying? Are you saying that I can run X HP in this engine and in so doing the "torque curve" peak at that X HP is at a lower or a higher number (lets call that number - Y) than from another engine that is running at that same X HP?

If I have:
  • Engine A - R409 engine that runs at 230 HP (or 235, or 250, or whatever number. . . you pick one)
  • Engine B - standard engine that runs at 230 HP (or 235, or 250, or whatever number. . . you pick one, but it must be the same as Engine A)

Are you saying that the peak torque of Engine A will be higher than the peak torque of Engine B at the same HP reached? Please give some details.
 
Dan Langhout said:
I suspect he means peak torque occurs at a lower RPM.
Click to expand...

Could be. I'm sure a standard torque and horsepower graph will explain everything.

Better yet, plain 'ole dyno data corrected to Standard Day. Here's an example from Sky Dynamics:

 
Last edited:
Mike S said:
I suspect Kevin meant that the peak torque is lower RPM wise------(but your are still the eagle eyed one)-------even if what he said was ????
Click to expand...

What I was trying to say is that a stroked engines peak torque is lower in the rpm range. Meaning it pulls harder at lower rpm than say a stock 360. This is why Carbon Cub loves the 340 with their fixed pitch prop. At 2200-2300 the engine produces more torque than a 320. Right where they want it. 409 similar.

Clear as mudd..:confused:
 
DanH said:
Each injector assembly is supplied at the same pressure, and they are (in this batch fire system) opened and closed with the same electrical signal. However, that does not mean they deliver the same fuel quantity. In the end analysis, an electronic injector is still just a body with a hole in the end. Unless a vendor runs a great many injectors on a test bench in order to assemble a flow-matched set, the match is dependent on the manufacturer's flow tolerance. Plus or minus 6% (a 12% range) is a common specification, brand new, although the typical random set will be better. How much better does it need to be? Assume 8 GPH. A good GAMI spread has all cylinders passing peak EGT within a 0.2 GPH window, so 0.2/8 = 2.5% range.

With use, an electromagnetic injector is subject to dirt and deposit issues, as is a mechanical system's nozzle. 'Nuff said.

Let's assume you get a perfectly matched set, and they never get dirty. Will all cylinders reach peak EGT at the same time? Probably not. Identical fuel/air ratios for all cylinders is also dependent on air delivery. Again, unless somebody took great care to flow match cylinder heads, air delivery may or may not be identical.

The SDS controller has a rich/lean panel control knob. It works pretty much like the familiar red handle, but with less range. With it, an Efii owner should be able to determine a GAMI spread, just like with a mechanical injection. Some installations will be good out of the box, and some won't. If poor, you'll need to swap injectors, just as we do with nozzle restrictors.
Click to expand...

Yep, I wrote the same thing and then figured was a waste of time to engage in that discussion and deleted. Thanks for posting. It is more likely that variation of airflow to each cylinder is greater than the fuel. Even more reason for individual injector control.

I am still waiting on the BSFC numbers. Until then it is just flag waving.
 
Relentless said:
What I was trying to say is that a stroked engines peak torque is lower in the rpm range. Meaning it pulls harder at lower rpm than say a stock 360. This is why Carbon Cub loves the 340 with their fixed pitch prop. At 2200-2300 the engine produces more torque than a 320. Right where they want it. 409 similar.

Clear as mudd..:confused:
Click to expand...
Actually it is much clearer than mud. That is the info I was expecting to hear. So, since you brought up the O-340 going into the Carbon Cubs, do you have any information on the performance difference between the O-340 and the IO-340? Can you provide any HP/Torque curves for these two engines?
 
RVbySDI said:
Actually it is much clearer than mud. That is the info I was expecting to hear. So, since you brought up the O-340 going into the Carbon Cubs, do you have any information on the performance difference between the O-340 and the IO-340? Can you provide any HP/Torque curves for these two engines?
Click to expand...

Now that I am no longer working for Titan I think it best you contact them for actual data on the 340. It is a solid 180hp with warm sump and carb. Pushing 190hp with efii and cold air induction.
 
Relentless said:
What I was trying to say is that a stroked engines peak torque is lower in the rpm range. Meaning it pulls harder at lower rpm than say a stock 360.
Click to expand...

The 320, 340, 360, 370, and 409 all have the same 5.125" bore.
 
Kevin working for Titan or not anymore??

Hi Kevin!
You said in this thread that you are not working for Titan anymore but you said in another thread that you resigned your position by Titan.. What is the true?? I think you did a great job on this forum and I was looking forward to meet you for a lot of question at Oshkosh!
Cheers

Nicolad
 
Naigool said:
Hi Kevin!
You said in this thread that you are not working for Titan anymore but you said in another thread that you resigned your position by Titan.. What is the true?? I think you did a great job on this forum and I was looking forward to meet you for a lot of question at Oshkosh!
Cheers

Nicolad
Click to expand...

I am no longer working for Titan. I was only brought on to launch the new experimental division for ECi and its time they find their own way??;)

I will still remain very active here as I set up ACE Performance to supply even cooler new tech for your engines.

Stay tuned??:D
 
I Kevin,
It is so sad after the good job you did on this platform to remain without any news from the new Titan products! I'm specialy curious on the R360 TBO certification...
Do you know if someone from Titan will be in Oshkosh? Will you be there?

Regards

Nicolas
 
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