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RV-3 accident yesterday (Wednesday, March 28, 2012)

rockwoodrv9

Well Known Member
Patron
Has anyone seen the accident report for the accident RV 3 in Iowa? Photos of the plane look like it should have been a survivable off field landing, but it tipped over. I am not familiar enough with the RV 3 to know if there is any type of roll bar to protect the pilot.

It caused me to look over the plans for the 9a I am building to see what protection it had. It looks like a pretty substantial roll bar at the top of the windshield, but how has it performed in past tip over accidents? With the "a" model, Im sure it has been studied. I tried to search this site and there are tons of posts about the canopy and roll bar, but not much about how strong it is. NTSB has records for the 6,7,9, but trying to find out how well the roll bar performed is difficult to pull from the reports.

Does anyone building a 9a, or a 7a for that matter, have an opinion on how well we will be protected and if anyone has made the roll bar stronger? I am really not interested in the argument of a front or back wheel, just how strong the roll bar is and if it is necessary and possible to make it stronger.

Thanks for the info. This had me concerned and I would like to know if I am over thinking the issue. I just see the picture of the 3 with minimal damage and a guy that isn't going home.
 
...Does anyone building a 9a, or a 7a for that matter, have an opinion on how well we will be protected and if anyone has made the roll bar stronger? I am really not interested in the argument of a front or back wheel, just how strong the roll bar is and if it is necessary and possible to make it stronger...

All RVs, including the RV-1 have roll bars or strong roll-over structure and having looked at many accident reports I can't recall roll-bar strength being an issue. Even with a strong roll-bar you can end up upside down inside a canopy with no easy way out. A slider is not going to slide in this situation and a tip-up is not going to tip-up and a tip-over is not going to tip-over. If you are on your back the canopy is likely going to be broken and that makes it easier to kick your way out if you are in a condition to do that. Not perfect, but the roll-bar gives you a pretty good chance.
 
A clearer picture of the roll bar is available here. It clearly shows the roll bar in front of the pilot was ineffective in protecting him. Please notice this RV-3 was built as a slider, so I do not know if that roll bar is designed for protection in the event of a flip, or if the structure behind the pilot is intended for protection much in the way the tip over RV-3's are built. I watched him fly the crosswind and downwind leg of the traffic pattern and was profoundly affected upon hearing the outcome. My prayers go out to his family and friends.
 
The accident happened about 15 miles east of me. My understanding is the airplane made a wheel landing on a grass strip, tailwheel still up when the airplane veered sharply to one side out into a cornfield. He regained control but then the airplane flipped. My understanding is he hit his head, possibly broke his neck. This just what I have heard but cannot confirm. RIP
 
The accident happened about 15 miles east of me. My understanding is the airplane made a wheel landing on a grass strip, tailwheel still up when the airplane veered sharply to one side out into a cornfield. He regained control but then the airplane flipped. My understanding is he hit his head, possibly broke his neck. This just what I have heard but cannot confirm. RIP

As one of the first people on the scene, that is my understanding of the situation as well, although no one saw the accident actually occur.
 
just plane sad

My heart sank when I saw the photo and how little damage. I had heard that it was a pretty reasonable landing, then flip. Neck injuries are something I am very knowledgeable about. I have had 2 fusions and know how fragile the neck actually is.

Am I correct in that a slider has more protection from the roll bar than a tip up? I don't want to start a war here on slider or tip up. I am planning a slider because of the roll bar, but is that a reasonable assumption? I need to look at both in person. Im going to find both and take a good look.

The doctor who was in the 3 sounds like a good guy. I am so sorry for his family and wish them the best. Maybe we can learn something here to help improve the survivability of our planes as a tribute.
 
The RV3 rollbar is an option. If it's a slider, the windshield edge is not strong enough to function as a rollbar. It's much smaller than the beefy windshield edge tube / roll structure on an RV8. If installed, the rollbar on a 3 is usually a triangular structure behind the headrest. Looks like the airplane in question has the roll bar that's specified in the plans.

Thoughts go out to the family. :(
 
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A lot of the non-slider canopy RV-3s were built without a roll bar - including the prototype -

VansRV-3prototypedown.jpg


Another typical one here -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24526864@N03/4249231121/

and here

http://www.2bumsaircraft.com/images/rv3-1.JPG
 
As indicated above, the RV-3 roll bar has options - effectively 4 choices:
  1. Tip Over Canopy: None. Whilst this might seem hazardous, it is the "default" since no parts are included in the kit for either of the next 2 options. See links in post(s) above.
  2. Tip Over: AL "structure". Detailed plans for this are provided, but most seem to forego it on "aesthetic" grounds at least.
  3. Tip Over: 4130 Steel Pic slightly adapted (Randy) Pic - adapted (Paul & Louise Dye)
  4. Slider: Plans call for (I think) 2 tubes of 4130 1/2" x .035.
Randy provided a discussion on his website I trust he does not mid me quoting from:
Link
Rollover bar
RV-3s built with the slider canopy have some built in rollover protection that comes from the windscreen bow, but -3s with the tipover canopy have none unless the builder specifically builds one. The plans have a design for an aluminum box that fits at the forward end of the turtledeck behind the pilot's head, then the manual has a drawing of an alternative structure made from 4130 steel tubing. The aluminum structure was attractive to me because it looked easier to build, but when I saw one in person I just didn't like the aesthetics. Therefore a call was made to my builder buddy Randy Griffin who came to the rescue by welding me the structure you see pictured. We used the manual drawing as a starting point and then did a bit of customizing including the smaller diameter crossbar and also incorporating a rib for the F-305 seatback bulkhead. Interestingly, the RV-3 is the only RV that does not have some sort of rib here to support the seatback as it rests on the F-305 bulkhead. I had the rollover bar powdercoated satin (60% gloss) black and think it looks great. It should visually almost disappear once the plane is done and should prove handy for moving the plane around. If you go this route be careful with the dimensions, especially the height, or your canopy frame will not clear it as it tips over. The 17.25" height spec in the manual looks to be right on.
The accident aircraft here, at a best guess, in fact was a slider and also had the AL Box rollover bar (?) which remained intact; and the slider junction which did not.

This discussion could also be extended to the RV-8 "fast back" which eliminates the rollbar - and (IMHO) an optional but less substantial alternative between the seats.

From the OP:
how strong the roll bar is and if it is necessary and possible to make it stronger.
The Rollbar is only part of the equation... making it stronger might sound good, but if it is not supported / able to pass the loads to structure at least as strong vertically / longtitudinally and rotationally, then the added strength is no use. This is my concern with the RV-8 fastback 'Roll Bar' - I would have little doubt about the rollbar itself being strong enough, but the instructions to "weld it to WD-808" seem to me to attach it to structure that is not designed to take the loads?
 
All RVs, including the RV-1 have roll bars or strong roll-over structure...

I apologize for this piece of misinformation. I have seen quite a few RV-3s and they have all had roll bars. It escaped me that some do not.
 
Unfortunately, the pilot of this aircraft has died, I'm sorry to say.

The aircraft does not look to be extensively damaged in the photo. The roll bar is intact and there's some rudder damage, indicating that whatever the roll bar did, the vertical tail also hit.

There have probably been other RV-3 flip-overs. What has been the outcome from those?

Dave
 
Dave...

There have probably been other RV-3 flip-overs. What has been the outcome from those?

I've just done a search via NTSB on model "RV-3" and got 4 (of 34 hits)... when I get time I might continue. It will also be worth searching "RV3" (7 hits).

Would be better also noting Registraiton and trying a photo search to determine type of rollbar? We are at the stage of deciding "which" rollbar to fit - tending towards the 4130 rounded at the top like Paul. I'll leave it late though and ensure it is as tall as possible (to just short of canopy) for max protection.

'Noseover' Minor Injury

'Flipped Over' Serious Injury

'Came to rest Inverted' No Injury

'Nosed Over during Takeoff' Minor Injury
 
If you imagine a line from the tip of the rudder to the tip of that A-frame and continue it forward, it looks like it hits the tip of the cowling. I don't know, but I suspect, that most pilots sit with the top over their head above that line. And if not, then perhaps a slightly loose seatbelt would be all it takes to get your head above that line.

On a flat, smooth runway, you may fare better as well. The problem is going into a grass field, which is likely to be un-smooth anyway even without the corn plants.
 
possible fixes difficult

Rob, I see what you are saying. All bets are off when you land on a soft runway, but there must be some way to at least improve your odds. I know on an old Fiat I had, the roll bar was pretty substantial, but Im not sure how much it would protect in an off road accident.

For the slider 9, I think the roll bar could be strengthened a reasonable amount without too much modification. I am out of town and don't have my plans with me, but I am going to research this and see if I can figure something out. Maybe it isn't necessary, but I have the time, so might as well at least try.
 
The roll bar on the RV-9 is very, very different than the two types on the RV-3, and the seating position is also different.

It might be worth doing an NTSB search for accidents with an RV-7 or RV-9. The existing roll bar might be adequate.

Dave
 
did that

The roll bar on the RV-9 is very, very different than the two types on the RV-3, and the seating position is also different.

It might be worth doing an NTSB search for accidents with an RV-7 or RV-9. The existing roll bar might be adequate.

Dave

David, I did that and I saw flip over accidents, but nothing other than most if not all, everyone survived. That shows it must work pretty well, but maybe could be made better.

The 3 and 4 look more like a MG with not much protection. Some have the V shape roll bar, better than nothing. Nothing is a sure thing other than staying on the ground, but I look for all the ways I can lower the risk. Im having too much fun to not be careful!

When does your kit get delivered to you? It should be getting pretty close. I bet you are anxious to get started.
 
The roll bar on the RV-9 is very, very different than the two types on the RV-3, and the seating position is also different.

It might be worth doing an NTSB search for accidents with an RV-7 or RV-9. The existing roll bar might be adequate.

Dave

The roll over bar in the slider 7 is very strong.

The longerons will spread about an inch but the roll over structure itself stays intact. There is plenty of room to crawl out the broken canopy.

I believe the RV-9 slider is the same as the -7.

Been there, done that.
 
Helmet

Hard to engineer a lot of pilot protection into a very small airframe. Was aboard a Cherokee for a slow flip onto a snowbank once. No injuries, but plane and pilot's ego were both signficiantly damaged. Wonder what a helmet would do for my odds in the RV-3?
 
RV3 roll bar performance

Probably enough already said. However, I own the salvage from one of Andy Hill's post with four links to NTSB reports. Link #1 "Nose over minor injury", refers to Kenny Rausch in Ohio. The VS and Rudder were crushed more than the Iowa photo. The HS flexed so hard the top spar reinforce strip buckled away from the sheet metal spar. The fuselage buckled 360 degree behind the seat bulkhead. Th 4130 tube roll bar ( per plans ) was bent, but did the job. The cowl was a little cracked from flexing and the the rear engine baffle was bent down just a little. So, it looks to me like the RV3 geometry is reasonable, however, shoulder harness performance could be an area the think about carefully. You don't have much room up or forward before things become uncomfortable. Hope this clarifies some details about RV3's.
 
I think many injuries depend on the size of the pilot. If you are short and your head is not anywhere near the canopy chances are you are not going to break your neck on a minor flip but if you are very tall and heavy even a slow flip can be fatal.
 
My '93 Miata offers about the same protection in a roll over, maybe less....
Best to keep the wheels underneath you when traversing terra firma.
 
Postural Asphyxia

While reading through this thread, I couldn't help but be reminded of the accident that took the life of the famous aerobatic pilot Charlie Hillard at Sun'n Fun in 1996. For whatever reason, his Hawker Fury show plane veered off the runway and flipped over.

The cause of death was not a broken neck but rather "postural asphyxia," which means his body being inverted pushed his head down into the canopy and he suffocated before he could be removed. It didn't matter whether the roll bar protection worked or not; apparently it did. And I never heard whether his harness was at fault. It's just another thing to think about; another reason we don't want to flip over.

I've never heard of "postural asphyxia" being a cause of death in an RV accident. I don't know if it's even possible in an RV, but it does give one food for thought.
 
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Hillard

I was there when the Sea Fury adccident occurred. There was plenty of help to get the tail lifted so Charlie could be gotten out of the airplane. The Lakeland Police Force "secured the accident scene" and prevented rescuers from reaching the aircraft. I will never go to a Sun and Fun again..
The accident report is an interesting read.
 
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