Should I build again, and what?

Lately the desire to build another plane is something that I think about often. What to build is the question that I just can't seem to resolve.

While I'd like to build a 10 the value of completed planes will ensure that I get to pay the state of CA about $200 per month in taxes for the priveledge of finishing one. Sadly the values are often set by somebody in the local Government looking at Trade A Plane adds and setting the values based on the asking price of professional builders. This has basically removed the 10 from my list of options.

Another 9/9A? Nah, it feels like time to try something else on the menu. I love my 9A, but doing the same thing again seems like a waste of time.

8/8A? This very much has my attention. An 8 with a 200hp, built with no sacrifices on the way it is equipped sounds pretty great. But then so does a really light plane that is nimble and fun. ??? But an 8...

7/7A? Is this enough of a change from my 9A to be worth the effort? I might need to trade a ride or two with a 7 driver that has a big engine on the nose to see if this is an avenue to pursue. My 9 climbs out solo at around 2,000 fpm so what will the extra oomph get me by building a hot rod 7? It'll take a ride to experience the difference to decide.

Ravin 500? This is a Composite knockoff of the C model Piper Comanche at about 90% scale. It is fully aerobatic and has a 2,000sm or so range. It is a 4 place that cruises fast and is pretty neat. But, it is plastic and few flying examples!

So for you repeat offenders out there, how did you decide on your next plane. How about those of you who have significant time in both tandom and side by side model RV's. Is one more fun, or comfortable, or ???

F1 Rocket, if it were me.

But that would probably be pricey for the taxes too.

BTW - How does CA tax you monthly? It's it just a one time tax?

Phil said:

BTW - How does CA tax you monthly? It's it just a one time tax?

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Bryan is talking about the property tax (levied once per year)

Bryan Wood said:

7/7A? Is this enough of a change from my 9A to be worth the effort? I might need to trade a ride or two with a 7 driver that has a big engine on the nose to see if this is an avenue to pursue. My 9 climbs out solo at around 2,000 fpm so what will the extra oomph get me by building a hot rod 7? It'll take a ride to experience the difference to decide.

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Hi Bryan,

Are you interested in acro? I'm happy to fly my 7A down to south county any time you want to go fly it. I only have the 180 hp A1A, but I do have the constant speed prop and I bet it will get you close to the feeling of the bigger engine.

I too have thought about building an 8 - because it is different from my seven and looks awesome. So far Beck is not willing to sit in back though.

If Van ever made an RV-11 kit, I'd be all over that in an instant.

Well, as someone who now has both a -6 and an -8 living in their hangar, I can tell you that it is pretty nice to have one of each!

I built my -8, and Louise owned her -6, before we met, so we didn't build or select them to complement each other. But it is nice to take the -6 when we want to sit side-by-side and share the flying. And it is absolutely great to take the -8 up for a little fighter-pilot time. Then to, the -8 is better equipped (by design) for all-weather travel, so when we are gong a long ways and the weather might be the factor, I have to sadly put Louise in the back (until she checks out in the front), and we go.

Our next plane is likely to be a -3 - we are just looking for the right time in our busy lives to get started. It will e fun to have a light, recreational machine that either of us can use to escape for a Little while.

Bottom line? We intend to build something different than what we have now, so that we can fulfill a different mission with each plane. I'd build the same thing again only if I intended to better my first effort and sell it when the second was flying.
Mostly, I'd evaluate what the airplane is supposed to be, and what you want it to do - and let that guide the decision.

Paul

Phil said:

F1 Rocket, if it were me.

But that would probably be pricey for the taxes too.

BTW - How does CA tax you monthly? It's it just a one time tax?

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As Kevin said, it is a yearly tax. I just broke it down more to what we would have to set aside each month in our budget to give the State. That is kind of what we do each month for our yearly insurance, maintenance, etc.

kevinh said:

Hi Bryan,

Are you interested in acro? I'm happy to fly my 7A down to south county any time you want to go fly it. I only have the 180 hp A1A, but I do have the constant speed prop and I bet it will get you close to the feeling of the bigger engine.

I too have thought about building an 8 - because it is different from my seven and looks awesome. So far Beck is not willing to sit in back though.

If Van ever made an RV-11 kit, I'd be all over that in an instant.

Click to expand...

I'd like that Kevin. Thanks.

Go for something completely different. I'm in the middle of a Turbine Cubs Super Cub. Very high quality kit but almost non existent instructions. Don

Me too

Thought all this out too. I helped build a 6, and then built, and am presently flying my 9A. It's a full boat plane with all of the bells and whistles, and I absolutely love it. I wanted to learn some new skills and thought I might like to try a rag and tube project, but it seems to be an expensive way to go. All of the tube and rag planes that I was interested in had completed prices that were a bit out of my price range. Finally decided to build another Vans, this time it will be a lightweight taildragger 9, as simple as possible. I have plenty of time to engage in my favorite pastime, scrounging. It's affordable, I have the tools and skills, time is on my side, and I have no issues deciding exactly how I want to build it out. The best part is knowing up front that I will have a wonderful bird that I will want to fly when I am done.

As for a 7, It is quite a different plane to fly than the 9. Snappy and nimble with MUCH lighter control forces. If you love your 9 like me, You will most likely love a 7 too. Even if you don't fly it like it's on fire!!

The lesson I have learned is, the lighter you build it, the better!!

2 cents,
Chris

Bryan:

Have you considered a restoration project? Yeah, you don't get all the 'glory' in the end, but to me there is something appealing about taking an airplane and returning it to it's former glory.

North Star

Bryan

Building is fun, but the mission dictates the plane for me. Your results may vary.

I have had / built 2 RV6s, the first flew in 1996, and now flying my 2nd RV8. Two RVs would be nice but..... My $ moneys in a North Star. It is a 'reboot' of a 180 hp Super Cub. www.Customflightltd.com Turbine Cubs of Wyoming was not avialiable when I started the North Star, but would be a good choice now.

I use both airplanes for traveling, and feel very privileged to own them. The Super Cub is used to see the Idaho and Montana out back. Have a plan to go to the Big Bend area of Texas soon. Been flying it since April 2004. 450 hours so far. A real compliment to the RV.

My RV experience is all over the US and 1700 hours RV6/7 and about 500 RV8/8a, lots of trips, and $100 hamburgers.

Jaypratt said:

Bryan

Building is fun, but the mission dictates the plane for me. Your results may vary.

I have had / built 2 RV6s, and now flying my 2nd RV8. Two RVs would be nice but..... My $$$$ moneys in a North Star. It is a 'reboot' of a 180 hp Super Cub. www.Customflightltd.com

I use both airplanes for traveling, and feel very privileged to own them. The Super Cub is used to see the Idaho and Montana out back. Have a plan to go to the Big Bend area of Texas soon. Been flying it since April 2004. 450 hours so far. A real compliment to the RV.

My RV experience is all over the US and 1700 hours RV6/7 and about 500 RV8/8a, lots of trips, and $100 hamburgers.

Click to expand...

Bryan I wanted to second Jay's North Star idea. You were talking about something like this a few months ago.

If you are just looking for something INTERESTING to build, you might want to take a look at this. Put a couple of Rotax 914's in it and it should have respectable performance. Since there aren't any of them out there, you could probably set whatever tax value you want on it...

Know Thyself.....

Bryan Wood said:

So for you repeat offenders out there, how did you decide on your next plane......

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Bryan,

Posed that common question by a potential builder with the angst borne of having to make a firm building choice, I refer to the sage advice of Van's Tom Green. His response? "When you open that hangar door, what airplane do you want to see?" Instantly, I knew what I wanted to see. So Saturday past, after barely more than 24 months of highly enjoyable construction, my -8 was awarded its Airworthiness Certificate by legendary DAR Frank Baldwin. As they say around here...you could bolt an aircraft engine on a barn door and Frank could fly it. Don't get me wrong, I truly enjoy flying my 6A "Darla!" and continue to be very pleased. With no prior tailwheel experience and proceeding with training to prepare myself for the maiden flight of the -8, I still pinch myself at my good fortune for having officially completed 2 RV's.

more H.P.

I went through the same dilemma a few years ago. After much sole searching, I ended up choosing an IO540 RV-6. Well it can't really be called an RV6 any more, too many changes. After 470 hrs. still can't believe how happy I am with it.

P82?

someone, somewhere has to start building a P-82 version of the RV-3/4/8. It could be you...!

Steve Barnes said:

I went through the same dilemma a few years ago. After much sole searching, I ended up choosing an IO540 RV-6. Well it can't really be called an RV6 any more, too many changes. After 470 hrs. still can't believe how happy I am with it.

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Just curious............

How much throttle do you ( or can you) apply on the takeoff run?

My 180 powered 6A with it's "short tail" is rather
peppy as the throttle is pushed to full, and requires some good dose of right rudder; and even wants to torque roll to the left, if I let it. Can't even imagine what those extra horses would do.

But I guess the Rockets and F1's have been doing it all along!

L.Adamson -- RV6A

Wow

breister said:

If you are just looking for something INTERESTING to build, you might want to take a look at this. Put a couple of Rotax 914's in it and it should have respectable performance. Since there aren't any of them out there, you could probably set whatever tax value you want on it...

Click to expand...

Besides being INTERESTING, that thing is FUGLY . Although, its nice to see companies making kit planes......rather than shutting there doors.....knock on wood.

Great post btw, it made me chuckle.

Take off torque with 300 H P on an RV 6

To answer your question L. Adamson, on take off torque, it has not been a problem. I add partial power for about 2 seconds, then full power, then the fun begins. I tried adding full power immedately once and my right foot went clear to the floor and I made 15 degree turn, but it straightened right out. My fuselage is 10" longer, and I have an RV 8 tail, and it's a tail wheel. I think those things help. It could be that since you have a nose wheel and your main gear is placed further aft it might affect your control differently with Torque. I don't know just guessing. From my first flight take off torque has never been an issue. Steve

When you can't decide...

I finally decided I wanted a 4. I found an old kit cheap and then discovered what RV building was like in the bad old days before prepunched parts. Man, is this going to be a long build!

Since it's obviously going to be many years until the 4 is flying, I started looking for something cheap to fly in the meantime. I wanted a Kitfox, but it turns out they aren't so cheap anymore. After about six months, I finally found a Kitfox IV kit I could afford that was almost ready to cover, and a week later a Jabiru engine turned up about 5 miles from my house.

That's how I wound up with TWO unfinished airplanes in my garage and not enough room to work on either of them.

I ought to have my head examined.

To answer your question, if you can only have one airplane, it has to be an RV. But you really want two airplanes. RV's are fun, aerobatic and fast, but they're expensive to feed and not great for sight-seeing. A Kitfox is not much good for traveling, but it's fun for weekend burger runs and burns half the gas and you can fly with the doors off if you want. Not to mention, you can fold the wings and keep it at home.

However, I have found that it's a good idea to finish one before you start on the other.

Steve Barnes said:

To answer your question L. Adamson, on take off torque, it has not been a problem. I add partial power for about 2 seconds, then full power, then the fun begins. I tried adding full power immedately once and my right foot went clear to the floor and I made 15 degree turn, but it straightened right out. My fuselage is 10" longer, and I have an RV 8 tail, and it's a tail wheel. I think those things help. It could be that since you have a nose wheel and your main gear is placed further aft it might affect your control differently with Torque. I don't know just guessing. From my first flight take off torque has never been an issue. Steve

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Thanks....

L.Adamson

I was told i cant talk about the ravin on a 100% Vans Aircraft sight.. So i will be deleting all my posts

I'll let you know

how the 9A to 8 transition goes. Hopefully in a very few months.
Currently Painting the '8!!

My wife got sick on a long cross country last Sunday. So I said fine.................. I'll build an 8 tail dragger, and you can go in the back once and a while....

I would... too...

L.Adamson ---- RV6A

Bryan Wood said:

As Kevin said, it is a yearly tax. I just broke it down more to what we would have to set aside each month in our budget to give the State. That is kind of what we do each month for our yearly insurance, maintenance, etc.

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I know SEVERAL here in the "People's Republic of California" that registered the airplane as something other than an RV or Rocket so as to make it more difficult for tax man. I know of one RV-6A that is registered as "Insert Builder's Last Name Special" that has a $200 a year tax bill. I know of a Harmon Rocket II that is registered as a "Flintstone Special" to make it more difficult for the taxman. When it is not listed in "Trade-A-Plane", they ask you what you have in it or paid for it and that helps set the value that they tax. I also believe there there may be an exemption for one of a kind airplanes to not pay any tax if you do what ever the tax man says you need to do like display 12 times a year. Check with your OFFICIAL Tax Man to make sure that that I post here will work for you.

Remember that what I post here may be worth exactly what you paid me for it.

What about a Radial Rocket or a Titan P51 replica? I don't have any tailwheel time and thought these might be the challenge I need.

Tom RV-7A N175TJ Flying

PainterJohn said:

Well i just finished up a Ravin 500. i really REALLY enjoyed building the airplane! We modified ours with an LS1 and a PSRU we only have about 5 hours on it right now (first flight 7-22-09) but besides a pesky cooling issue, its great!

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Quick question...which companies' V8 did you use? Next question, what's the whole story with the cooling issue? It'd be good to get the story from the horses mouth instead of the 3rd hand tidbits I've heard.

Second, I'm really happy to see the Ravin kits being handled by some good folks and I really think it's a nice kit / plane. This plane should do much better with some good people behind it now.

Cheers,
Stein

Bryan, after I completed my 9A, I swore that I would never build an airplane again. I sold my tools and went on with my life.

But after a while the memories of the pain and suffering abated and I found the biological imperative to create something driving me again. After a while, I admitted to myself that I missed building, missed the creative parts (custom avionics for example) and I needed a way to pass the long drippy Winter evenings in Vancouver.

A personal crisis made up my mind: I am making sure that my new house has a basement workshop ideally setup for airplane construction. Face it, I'm a serial offender. I bought the tools and found a partially completed HR-II down the street (literally!) and I'm now plugging away again.

This time, it's a lot slower, though. In fact, sometimes I enjoy just taking my time and not being in a hurry. I've got an excellent 9A to fly in the mean time.

Why the HR-II? About 50% or more of my flight hours are in formation. I'm FAST rated and enjoy the challenge and camaraderie. The 9A is fine for this mission, but it's a lot of work to slow down in the overhead break for landing and is non-aerobatic. After a while I began pining for a tandem with constant speed. The choices were the RV-8 and the HR-II. I'm fairly large (6-1, 230 lbs), so the RV-4 was not the best choice. In fact, I found the RV-8 a bit tight for my liking.

Comparing the Rocket to an RV-8 made up my mind. The front cockpit of the HR-II is quite spacious and more comfortable for me. It also doesn't help that the Rocket has more horsepower, but that was not the overriding factor.

Why an HR-II and not an F1? Bottom line is that it's hard to get F1's. There are no more kits being manufactured, and the ones for sale were too far advanced to be legal to import into Canada. I focused on finding an HR-II in roughly a quick-build state, and I found one in my neighborhood (and inspected by the MDRA), so I jumped at it! It's modified with an F1 slider canopy, though.

Once the HR-II is completed, I will make a decision on which one (or both) to complete, then ponder the next project. Turbine Legend??

Vern

I grew up with a North American Yale in our family backyard so I think this affliction isn't going to end anytime soon. The first airplane I did was a Wolf Boredom Fighter (plans-built all wood/ fabric bi-plane). The RV check off the kit-built box, so I'm going to be looking for a Champ/ Cub restoration project (L-16/L-4) in the next 5 years so my boy has something to learn to fly in!

carguy614 said:

Thought all this out too. I helped build a 6, and then built, and am presently flying my 9A. It's a full boat plane with all of the bells and whistles, and I absolutely love it. I wanted to learn some new skills and thought I might like to try a rag and tube project, but it seems to be an expensive way to go. All of the tube and rag planes that I was interested in had completed prices that were a bit out of my price range. ....
Chris

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Hey Chris, did you consider the kitfox? thats a tube and rag plane, pretty reasonable pricing and they have a great manual. I've seen couple local ones they are pretty cool, and seem to be pretty straightforward to build.

SteinAir said:

Quick question...which companies' V8 did you use? Next question, what's the whole story with the cooling issue? It'd be good to get the story from the horses mouth instead of the 3rd hand tidbits I've heard.

Second, I'm really happy to see the Ravin kits being handled by some good folks and I really think it's a nice kit / plane. This plane should do much better with some good people behind it now.

Cheers,
Stein

Click to expand...

I was told i cant talk about the ravin on a 100% Vans Aircraft sight.. So i will be deleting all my posts.