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Let There Be Light! (Duckworks HID Conversion kit)

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
Back when I was building my -8, Creativair had just come out with their wing-tip mounted 2" halogen landing light kit, and I really liked the idea of keep all the lighting in the tips, as well as not having to cut into my beautiful QB leading edge! (I have since learned that the leading edge lights are pretty easy to install, and quite robust and effective - I would not be averse to using then in the future.) The installation worked fine, and the lights function OK, but when people ask how well they work as landing lights, I really have to admit - not very well. There just isn't that much light to be had from those 2" halogens! While they are OK for landing on a well-light airport, I was very uncomfortable at the idea of coming home to our dark-hole of an airpark well after sunset.

I started with Creativair, as I had heard that Bill Vondane had developed an HID replacement kit, but alas, he is having supplier problems, and rather than promising what he can't deliver, he has taken the high road and suspended those kits until he can sort it out. When I saw that Van's was having a clearing house sale on the Duckworks HID kits, I went and looked at their site, and lo and behold, they had a drop-in replacement for the 2" "MR-16" halogen in an HID form. Yes, you have to install the ballast and wiring, but the basic mount for the lamp is exactly the same.

I ordered the unit Monday night on line, and got an email immediately saying that th kit would ship on Thursday. $250 included two lights, ballasts, and shipping - and it arrive yesterday via USPS - it's a plus that the postal service still delivers on Saturday!

The kits are very simple, and didn't require instructions - the only thing I had to do to prep for installation was to cut off the power input plug (looked like an automotive plug for which I didn't have a "mate" and install a nylon connector from my shop supply. Then it was on to removing the wingtips. To make a long story short, there were no surprises - I started removing the tip at about 2030 last night, had the first one installed and re-assembled in an hour, and took half that time on the second one. I opened up the hangar doors, connected some ground power to the airplane so I could do some aiming without worrying about running down the battery, and voil?' !! Instant sun!

Light measurements are very tricky, so I'll give an unscientific estimate that these things have GOBS more light than the halogens. I was able to light up my ramp, the runway, and the backyard of the neighbor across the runway from me. Aiming was a matter of trying not to blind myself with reflected light while trying to make adjustments. I aim one for tail-high (Landing), and one for tail-low (taxi).

I have heard and read concern over the effects of RFI on wing tip antennas, so on today's breakfast run, I played with the lights and both the Nav (in my right wing tip) and the #2 Comm (in my left. Yes, you can hear the lights on the Comm. But that antenna is marginal anyway (only good for about 30 miles), and I have been thinking about putting a second belly antenna on - I paid enough for th radio, it's silly not to have a good antenna! the Nav locked up on stations at normal ranges, regardless of the light being on or off.

Overall, I am extremely pleased with the lights, the kit, and the choice - If you really need light, HID seems to be the way to go! (More light, less power - better than a beer commercial)

Comparison of the Halogen (left) and HID (right) lamps:
IMG_6726.jpg


Duckworks HID Ballast:
IMG_6724.jpg


Ballast installed on the outboard rib with three screws - took minutes!
IMG_6728.jpg


The HID Lamp fits right into the Creativeair holder (this is the Halogen bulb):
IMG_6723.jpg



Paul
 
Giddy Up Paul!

I love the HID in my leading edge and I am working with a local builder to put 2 HID MR16's, and LED position lights in each wing tip.

Just to make sure the Feds are OK with all the light pollution for this bird, we have filed an environmental impact statement............
 
Yes I'm the local builder working with Pete on my lights and I just ordered the install kits from Van's and the lights from Don at Duckworks last night. ...trouble is, I paid $275 for each set if two M16's rather than $250. HMMMM - I'll have to call him and see what's up!

I'll be anxious to see how they look!

Paul - After seeing them, do you feel if aimed properly, they will throw enough light down the runway on very short final to see an obstruction? ...bunch of geese etc.?

- Peter
 
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Yes I'm the local builder working with Pete on my lights and I just ordered the install kits from Van's and the lights from Don at Duckworks last night. ...trouble is, I paid $275 for each set if two M16's rather than $250. HMMMM - I'll have to call him and see what's up!

I'll be anxious to see how they look!

Paul - After seeing them, do you feel if aimed properly, they will throw enough light down the runway on very short final to see an obstruction? ...bunch of geese etc.?

- Peter
I took the plane up for a short flight last night just after sunset to see how much light they give under night conditions, but alas, I went up a little to early, so it wasn't dark enough to give a good answer. I'll try again soon - but now the moon is waxing, so getting a dark enough night might take awhile!

Paul
 
But can you see directly ahead at close range?

Paul et al,

I have been debating this very issue for some time so your post is timely (and appreciated)! I have a similar (Creativeair?) LED nav light kit with halogens to what your 4th photo shows. I love the idea of the wingtip lights due to their simplicity and non-impact to the leading edge, but I am concerned about the ability to aim them, especially inboard.

It always seemed to me that there was no way to aim the beam inboard of a line parallel to the plane's axis (in other words, you MIGHT be able to get these to point straight ahead, but you would NEVER be able to get them to point inward, i.e. in front of the nose), which would result in a significant blind (or unlit) spot directly ahead of the cockpit. This leaves me concerned that I may not be able to see and avoid potholes, chocks, and the like while taxiing. This seems to be the result of the geometry of the Vans fiberglass tip, as the wingtip mounting plane angles outward at a 20-30 degree angle, and the light kit can't angle in all that much.

Can you comment on whether you think this is true and / or whether you think this is a problem. I had been more or less convinced that to light up the area directly ahead of the pilot, one would need a cowl-mounted or a leading-edge mounted taxi / landing light and I would sure like to avoid both of these approaches.

Muchas Gracias...
 
Noah - you are right - there is an unlit spot directly ahead of the spinner, for the very reason that you mention - since the lights are recessed back in the wingtip, you can't really point towards center. However, there are a couple reasons why this doesn't bother me:

1) There is a lot of side-light/reflection - you don't really have a black area, just one with less light.

2) I fly a taildragger - you can't see directly ahead of you at close range anyways. And if you turn to get the nose out of the way, the light goes with it and you can see what is there.

Paul
 
Yes I'm the local builder working with Pete on my lights and I just ordered the install kits from Van's and the lights from Don at Duckworks last night. ...trouble is, I paid $275 for each set if two M16's rather than $250. HMMMM - I'll have to call him and see what's up!

I'm guessing that Paul bought the 35W bulbs. Those are $240 plus the $12 shipping would be about $250. I bought the 50W bulbs which were $275 plus the $12 shipping. I'm hopeful that they'll give enough light that I don't have to cut into my leading edge and install another one.

PJ Seipel
RV-10 #40032
 
I'm guessing that Paul bought the 35W bulbs. Those are $240 plus the $12 shipping would be about $250.

Roger that! I spoke to Don today and that's exactly the case. The question now is on the XePulse Flasher and if it will wigwag two banks of two 50 watters! :confused: The specs say it will handle up to 200 watts per side and I'll only be at 100 per side. (200 watts of HID between both sides should be enough I think)

Don's not 100% sure it will work. All my gear shipped today so maybe I can test it in a few weeks and let you know. ...that will of course depend on the schedule of our local RV Electrical / Lighting Guru Pete Howell's schedule! ;) He truly is "DA MAN!"

- Peter
 
OK for the record my source on the XePulse spec was INCORRECT!!! The XePulse can take 70 watts per side. ...two 35W's would be fine but it's not set up to handle two 50W's.

Rumor has it (I said RUMOR not fact) that Don is working on an updated wigwag solution that might work with two 50W's.

I'll keep you posted.

- Peter
 
Overall, I am extremely pleased with the lights, the kit, and the choice - If you really need light, HID seems to be the way to go! (More light, less power - better than a beer commercial)l

Paul -

I am going to change out the wing tips on my -8 to the latest Van's style. I want to use a wig wag flasher in the wing tips; the airplane already has the leading edge Duckworks landing and taxi lights. The wig wags will stay on all of the time and will be used only for recognition. Question: do you think the one bulb arrangement that you have in your airplane is enough light for a wig wag recognition light system? If so I'll use the CreativAir light kit which has one bulb per side, if not I'll use the Van's light kit which has two bulbs per side. Either way, whether it's 2 bulbs or 4 bulbs, I'll be using a 35w HID light kit and not halogen lights.

By the way, I installed a Duckworks HID conversion on my leading edge landing light this afternoon. I did not have time today to put a kit on the other side but will do so tomorrow. With the rectangular relector that is part of the Duckworks kit all I can say is WOW!!! That puppy puts out an incredible amount of light. And...I am hearing no noise over my radio/intercom system :). I do wonder if a single smaller bulb/reflector would provide enough light for the wig wag hence my question in the paragraph above.

Thanks
 
Paul -

I am going to change out the wing tips on my -8 to the latest Van's style. I want to use a wig wag flasher in the wing tips; the airplane already has the leading edge Duckworks landing and taxi lights. The wig wags will stay on all of the time and will be used only for recognition. Question: do you think the one bulb arrangement that you have in your airplane is enough light for a wig wag recognition light system? If so I'll use the CreativAir light kit which has one bulb per side, if not I'll use the Van's light kit which has two bulbs per side. Either way, whether it's 2 bulbs or 4 bulbs, I'll be using a 35w HID light kit and not halogen lights.

By the way, I installed a Duckworks HID conversion on my leading edge landing light this afternoon. I did not have time today to put a kit on the other side but will do so tomorrow. With the rectangular relector that is part of the Duckworks kit all I can say is WOW!!! That puppy puts out an incredible amount of light. And...I am hearing no noise over my radio/intercom system :). I do wonder if a single smaller bulb/reflector would provide enough light for the wig wag hence my question in the paragraph above.

Thanks

I've never played around with Wig-Wag Jim, although I have seen some very nice bright ones, and they are very noticeable. I believe that you can wig-wag the Halogens alright, and I suspect that a single bulb would be OK - but two would be better. The thing about the wingtip lights is that you can see them from straight ahead, but get off to the side a little, and they are probably invisible - they set back inside the tip a ways. That might argue for two bulbs. That's about all I can think of - not sure I am qualified to make a recomendation - just give you data and things to think about.

Paul
 
Paul,

Where on Van's site does it list these conversion kits? I have some original Duckworks leading edge lights but have not changed to HID's because of the cost. $250 for a pair of HID bulbs/ballasts seems like a very good deal. I could not find these on Van's site. All I could find was the 50W complete kits.

Thanks,
Tom RV-7A N175TJ Flying
 
Paul,

Where on Van's site does it list these conversion kits? I have some original Duckworks leading edge lights but have not changed to HID's because of the cost. $250 for a pair of HID bulbs/ballasts seems like a very good deal. I could not find these on Van's site. All I could find was the 50W complete kits.

Thanks,
Tom RV-7A N175TJ Flying

I think I went directly to Duckworks - don't have the website, sorry.
 
I have the RMS tip lights

With my racing tips I have to limit my flying to daytime. I've been thinking of one leading edge light and some home grown lens to enclose the nav lights and strobes in the tips. I do not like the wavy edge of the existing lens between mounting points so I am thinking that the clear lens should be installed permanently inside the fiberglass and removing the tips for the rare need to replace a burned out lamp. Thanks for the information on the leading edge lights.

Bob Axsom
 
I believe that you can wig-wag the Halogens alright, and I suspect that a single bulb would be OK - but two would be better.

Paul, I'm going to be wig-wagging HID, not halogen. Do you think one or two HID's for this application? In other words, for your wing tip HID installation, are you happy with one bulb, or do you think two bulbs is the best way to go? Thanks.

Jim
 
I have a single bulb in each tip Jim - I replaced the Halogens with HID's, but still just have a single bulb. I'd think that for recognition only, a single bulb would be enough.
 
I installed a Duckworks HID conversion on my leading edge landing light this afternoon. I did not have time today to put a kit on the other side but will do so tomorrow. With the rectangular relector that is part of the Duckworks kit all I can say is WOW!!!
Got any pictures of the install? I have the rectangular lights and I'm just curious to see how this all goes together. Thanks.
 
Got any pictures of the install? I have the rectangular lights and I'm just curious to see how this all goes together. Thanks.

Brad, I should have taken pictures when I did the project but unfortunately I did not. What I did was mount the metal ballast on the aft side of the Duckworks light bracket using the screws that come in the HID conversion kit. There's also a black rectangular plastic box that's part of the ballast circuitry. There is no elegant way to mount this; what I did is mount it to the inboard side of the outboard nose rib using Adel clamps around the top and bottom cables that come out of the black box. The box generates no heat, so I wrapped it in thin dense foam as a cushion against vibration induced abrasion of the nose rib. I will be pulling my wingtips soon as I am going to upgrade to the latest Van's style. When I do I can provide a picture of the installation if you'd like, but it might be a week or two. I installed the kit on the taxi light today and am amazed at the amount of light two of these suckers put out. And I get no noise over the intercom. Well, there is a barely perceptible whine for the first 10 seconds or so on power up as the lights heat up, but it completely goes away in short order.

I also installed an AERO LED SunTail combo nav light/strobe light on the rudder fairing and again WOW. That dude puts out a lot of light too. In fact the strobe is noticeably brighter than a Whelen flash tube on the wing tip. I'll write a separate post about that installation later this evening or tomorrow.
 
Thanks for the info Jim. I was browsing the duckworks site the other day... from your earlier comments it appears that you went with the HID bulb upgrade for the rectangular reflector. Correct?

I don't really need to know, but I guess I am just sort of curious to see how the rectangular reflector gets upgraded with an HID bulb.
 
You just remove the old halogen bulb and then put the HID bulb in the reflector using the same retaining screw. The rest of the installation is figuring out how to mount the ballast and the 'black box'.
 
Thanks again Jim... I guess I thought there would be more to it than that.

At $240 for the pair, this seems like an upgrade worth consideration.
 
At $240 for the pair, this seems like an upgrade worth consideration.

I you send him a check he'll discount the price over what you see on the web. I think the pair of lights with a web price of 240 can be had for 200 plus shipping. For me, the upgrade was well worth the money.

Jim
 
OK - opinions solicited...

I'm getting ready to do the lights in my wingtips, I need to go with all-wingtip lighting since my leading edges are auxiliary fuel tanks.

Right now I'm looking at the Halogen landing light and LED nav light combo from Creativair, then the Duckworth HID dropins for the landing lights on that kit. I have not decided what to do about the strobe, from the pictures I've seen it appears the strobe protrudes right out into the beam of the HID when both are mounted in the wingtip, is this correct? Does it impact the HID beam enough to worry about?

Suggestions as to the strobe package? Comments/suggestions about the Nav light and HID combo? Is there a wigwag flasher now that can handle 50W HID per side? I plan on running belly-mount Nav/Comm antennas for primary, and possibly wingtip mounted antennas for secondary nav/comm, I realize the wingtip mounted units will be subject to RFI when lighting is operational, I'm still rolling that over in my head.
 
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I installed a pair of 50W HID wingtip landing lights last week (Duckworks kit) and I finally had a chance to do some night flyin' and try 'em out.. OK.. I'm joining the WOW crowd... these lights are amazing.. the old halogens look like a pair of candles in comparison..

very, very happy with these HIDs...

I went with the 50W ones... but I'm sure that the 35W would work just fine too.. both are orders of magnitude stronger than the halogens :) One super minor thing to mention is that the igniters are definitely noisy in the intercom (though, the noise gets squelched out).. but that's just for a few seconds until they "warm up" -- no noise afterwards at all.. Not an issue at all anyways..
 
This may no longer be an issue with the Duckworks HID kits, but when I installed mine YEARS ago (I think they had just come out in Van's catalog and were a LOT more expensive!), I read in the instructions that they should NOT be used with wig-wag circuitry.

If they've since changed that, or if I'm just not remembering correctly, then disregard. However, somebody may want to call Duckworks and be sure that it will work and not burn out the HIDs.
 
You can now buy 50W HID kits with electronic ballasts for under $60 on ebay. I have one of these kits for my rocket and have done bench testing with it... they can be wigwag'ed after a warmup period. Don't know how long they will last but I may do some longevity testing.
 
Bob, can you post more details about that alternative.. I think it'd be helpful to some. (eg. which bulb type etc..)

Are those MR16 or leading edge lights? I couldn't find reasonably priced MR16 HIDs... (wingtip lights) so had to go with the duckworks setup....
 
Radomir, I ordered mine from this same seller on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/55W-HID-XENON-C...2c8e&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262#ht_5960wt_939

Very quick shipping, was actually surprised how quick they got here from China.

I specified 4300K H3 bulbs, which simply retrofit into the existing Duckworks incandescent bulb reflectors.

I bought this setup for my Rocket, but to check for any noise issues I wired them into the electrical bus on the RV to check for any noise issues. Flipped them on...absolutely no radio noise.
 
Where can I locate...

The PAR 36 glass bulbs to upgrade my DW standard lights? I have the D1S HID bulbs and ballasts but need the reflectors to accomodate them. Any one have any leads on them?
Thanks,
Paul
 
D1S reflectors.

The PAR 36 glass bulbs to upgrade my DW standard lights? I have the D1S HID bulbs and ballasts but need the reflectors to accommodate them. Any one have any leads on them?
Thanks,
Paul

DW sells them. A bit on the expensive side. I haven't been able to find another source, yet.

What would really be nice is a reflector to accommodate an H4 (or other bulb). Much cheaper than the D1S bulbs.

Of course, if you have the standard reflector, you can replace the bulb with an H3 HID kit.
 
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