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How many of you guys with IFR certified RVs use the capability?

Do you use the IFR capability of your RV?

  • YES (file IFR)

    Votes: 241 73.0%
  • NO

    Votes: 89 27.0%

  • Total voters
    330
I fly for a living and know several pilots in the area who fly for a living (some AF, some Marine, some Navy, and some only civilian time). We all will fly in cloud in an single engine GA. My sample size is small but I don't think that professional pilots as a whole are less likely to fly IFR in a single engine GA airplane. Icing is not IFR. If the plane doesn't have deice capability then don't fly in ice. Even in the middle of winter most clouds in the GA airspace in my area don't meet the requirements to make ice. There is risk to flying anything, the airplane doesn't care if it is dark or there are clouds (excluding those that lead to ice). If I didn't trust my plane enough to fly in the weather I wouldn't trust it vfr either; of course it is set up for ifr( if the plane was vfr only then that would be different).
 
AX-O,
Yep.... a little bit of thread drift, but this is a “forum”, so you get what you get. To answer your only question - “ for those who have equipped for IFR, how many of you use it” - or something like that. Well, I have equipped three of my 5 RV’s for IFR flight, and I really didn’t use that capability very often. That’s mostly because I didn’t need to. I don’t feel there is anything unsafe about IMC flight in a properly equipped and maintained RV, and I never felt uncomfortable while flying ‘in the clouds’. When I calculated the cost of the hours spent on IMC flights against the equipment necessary to legally do that, it turned out to be many thousands of dollars per hour of IFR flight because I didn’t fly in those conditions very often. On my latest, and probably last RV (RV4), when I rebuilt the panel, I made it a very capable dual EFIS, VFR panel. I retired a few years ago, and maintaining currency now is also an issue that I’m not willing to take shortcuts on. It’s not a cost effective or practical option for me at this stage of my life. You’re a young man, so totally different story for you.
 
Ten years ago when I built the RV I had plans of doing more IFR. Life happens. And I don't do much IFR at all. Is there a way for people to change their poll answer?
 
Hey Axel, I think you’re being way too harsh on Chattin35. He’s an ex-USAF pilot and his real world experience has presumably influenced his point of view (which he’s fully entitled to). As for “thread drift”..... what thread drift....its a thread about people using or not using IFR capability.

The question for the poll is “Do you use the IFR capability of your RV?” Simple, yes or no. If the person responding has a personal experience that is applicable, it is great to hear that so we can learn. Or potentially look at things from a different angle/point of view. Personal data is good data.

As for thread drift:
What is not data or a useful point of view is negatively speaking about other people in generalizations. That does not help answer the question and derails the thread to the point that this is no longer about the original question.
e.g. having to reply to your post.

Everyone IS entitled to their opinion however, in this case I am/was searching for real data. NOT negative generalizations of a group of people.

Can we please go back to the thread with real data and stop generalizations before this thread gets locked? Thank you for everyone’s consideration and cooperation.
 
...If I didn't trust my plane enough to fly in the weather I wouldn't trust it vfr either...

I'm going to disagree with this statement. An electrical malfunction that takes out fancy screens and/or navigation equipment becomes a non issue in day-VFR, most night-VFR situations and VMC-IFR. There's a beautifully reliable "back-up horizon" outside the canopy.

An engine failure in day-VMC gives the pilot significantly more time to set up the approach to an off-airport landing. This time is used to increase the options and thus chances of a desirable outcome. This engine failure situation is also very dependent on the terrain one typically flies over. Enough altitude, with lots of airports around, avionics can get the plane into a good spot by 500' (or whatever the cloud base is at).

In my career so far, I've had friends and co-workers involved in 9 engine failures. 2x PW120/123, 5x PT-6, 1x TIO-540, 2x AEIO-360 (sample size for turboprops is much much larger).

IFR, regardless of aircraft, is always safer than scud running. If one is going to fly in the muck, do it up high in the clouds under IFR.

Flying is all about risk management, and deciding what risks one is willing to accept. I can't make a decision for andrewtac any better than he can make a decision for me (sorry for picking on you). I don't know someone else's plane, the trip they're planning, their familiarity with the route, weather or what risks they deem acceptable. The most important part is to be aware of the risks and make an informed decision.
 
My RV is IFR capable as are I. Would I drive it IFR! Never!
It's about choice. I simply chose not to.
Life is too short and now that I'm no longer forced to drive in IFR conditions I intend to increase my chances of being around a lot longer to fly and live another day, flying day VFR only:)
 
I'm going to disagree with this statement. An electrical malfunction that takes out fancy screens and/or navigation equipment becomes a non issue in day-VFR, most night-VFR situations and VMC-IFR. There's a beautifully reliable "back-up horizon" outside the canopy.

An engine failure in day-VMC gives the pilot significantly more time to set up the approach to an off-airport landing. This time is used to increase the options and thus chances of a desirable outcome. This engine failure situation is also very dependent on the terrain one typically flies over. Enough altitude, with lots of airports around, avionics can get the plane into a good spot by 500' (or whatever the cloud base is at).

In my career so far, I've had friends and co-workers involved in 9 engine failures. 2x PW120/123, 5x PT-6, 1x TIO-540, 2x AEIO-360 (sample size for turboprops is much much larger).

IFR, regardless of aircraft, is always safer than scud running. If one is going to fly in the muck, do it up high in the clouds under IFR.

Flying is all about risk management, and deciding what risks one is willing to accept. I can't make a decision for andrewtac any better than he can make a decision for me (sorry for picking on you). I don't know someone else's plane, the trip they're planning, their familiarity with the route, weather or what risks they deem acceptable. The most important part is to be aware of the risks and make an informed decision.


If something is not reliable and I don't trust it then I'll fix it before I fly it, regardless of weather conditions. Disagree all you want, but I see it as 1 or 0; airworthy or not does not depend on weather. My statement had nothing to do with outcomes of failure but trust in my airplane. I can't make decisions for other people either, if someone has lower standards for vfr on their RV that is their choice. I understand partial mission capable, and if the mission dictated me going I would; however with my airplane it is either full mission capable or I am not flying it. This is my opinion, how I treat my airplane.

I understand if an engine fails and it is night (the horizon is not going to help you pick a landing spot unless the moo is really full) or I am in cloud it sure makes it difficult to sort out a solution. However, back to my original risk mitigation it all works or I don't fly. If I thought I was going to loose my engine I wouldn't fly regardless of weather. That doesn't mean I don't practice engine out profiles, it can happen even with multiple engines.

I answered the pole yes, and will continue to do it. I don't go and seek it out, but I don't avoid it either.
 
I got my ticket in my RV. Yes I fly IFR in it. But in nothing convective and usually I avoid the rain and much as possible. Out here in the northern ca Bay Area we get a lot of great IFR to fly in. Most mornings at my home airport we have an overcast layer and you wouldn’t get to fly until the afternoon if you didn’t have your ticket.
 
Mine is IFR equipped/certified and I do use it in that capacity, but mostly just to get through layers vs flying solid IMC. I flew an ILS to mins at night (a great "never again lesson"--winds/weather made my enroute segment much longer than planned pushing me to a dusk arrival, the clouds made it pretty darn dark, and the ceilings were lower than ATIS was calling). That made me rethink the reality and wisdom of using it as a planned option vs more of an emergency capability, but that's just me.
 
In the spirit of the thread and positive thinking leadership...

My RV8 is set up for IFR- dual nav/coms, GTN 650, AFS 5400, backup PFD, along with PFD/EFIS backup batteries. First flight was Nov 2015, First IFR clearance in actual IMC was Aug 2020, to takeoff in 1.5mi visibility in smoke, then zero-zero over the CA Sierras in smoke for 20 minutes. The trip to Steamboat springs was fun and I felt safe and sane. My plane was setup for this very thing- the utility of being able to leave the San Francisco bay area with our predictable marine layers. I have a Redbird TD at home to stay current, the plane is well maintained (!!), so I felt it was a reasonable risk. I draw the line on possible icing conditions- don't do it; there are plenty of NOAA resources to stay away from icing. I feel all my attention on staying IFR proficient helps keep me safe in all my flying- taking out of the VFR safety bank to pay for an IFR trip once in a while, seams like a reasonable thing to do.
 
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Lots

I certificated my RV7 in 2007 and fly it IFR periodically, throughout the year. I have made 5 trips from Virginia to California and Oregon, as well as uncounted excursions across the Appalachians and each way I end up flying in substantial IMC.
I have dual GRT screens, Mini-X as a backup, 430W, SL30, iphone and ipad. TruTrak AP is the most important part of all this. The 7 is a fine IFR platform - as long as you stay current/very current.
One caution I would offer is that if hand flying in IMC you make turns separately from climb/descents. I've never had ATC complain about doing one before the other.
Otherwise, I took off from Pearson airfield, WA early September 2020 in dense smoke (3/4 miles vis), and climbed in IMC from 800MSL to 11,000MSL. Turbulent IMC in IA, prolonged IMC through OH and WV, ending in LPV approach into home field HEF.
Practice, practice, practice.
 
Just flew 3.0 in my 6 today from 52F to Llano TX for BBQ with my Wife. We filed both ways and glad we did. Didn't need an approach but needed to get through a layer to get into a smooth inversion and better tail winds. I have a neat gamin panel and enjoying using it "in the system".

As others have posted...way safer than scud running and honestly, their is a point of satisfaction to completing a well flown IFR flight. Same sensation as a good acro practice season. Honing the craft is half of the fun of these great airplanes.

Having said that, I try not to fly over or through a ceiling of less than 1,000 AGL just in case I have engine trouble and I need more time gliding to look for a good spot to set down.
 
All The Time

Both my 4 was and my 8 is equipped for IFR and I use that capability frequently. I am a professional pilot so I am very comfortable doing so. I understand that others may not be.

I very much agree with Indy and Pilot8 above. The big limfac is ice. I will NEVER mess with that. Otherwise, IFR capability is a very nice backup in case you need to get home. Greatly expands your airplane’s usability for any serious travel.
 
All the time also

Very capable machines. This was last week at KAVL.
 

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Both my 4 was and my 8 is equipped for IFR and I use that capability frequently. I am a professional pilot so I am very comfortable doing so. I understand that others may not be.

I very much agree with Indy and Pilot8 above. The big limfac is ice. I will NEVER mess with that. Otherwise, IFR capability is a very nice backup in case you need to get home. Greatly expands your airplane’s usability for any serious travel.

Same. Ice and thunderstorms are two places I will avoid like the plague, but anything else is fair game. I logged 23 hours of actual IMC in 2020, searching out low ceilings anywhere near me and flying to them to get practice with lower and lower conditions to expand my personal minimums. I shot a half-dozen approaches last year down to no-BS 200 and 1/2, including one true missed at that point. I look at it like a crosswind landing - one day you'll have to do it for real, you better practice it.
 
I just flew the RNAV 13 at KPVU four days ago down to the min at 3/4 mi visibility. I snuck in under the wire, as the ATIS changed to 1/2 mi vis about 5 minutes later. Like I've said before in previous posts, our little Vans airplanes are great at IFR flying as long as they're properly equipped and the pilot is trained and proficient. I like Greg's example above, comparing this skill to crosswind landings. It's good to exercise the skill and then be ready when you need it.
 
Built my RV-7 panel for IFR lite. Never used it. After a few years removed and sold the GNS530 & gear for some nice cash. Installed VFR stuff. Never looked back. Pitch stability in the 7 is not great anyway. Not into flying for fun in icky WX.
 
snip -
That will mean cancelling a lot of trips because an RV is a VMC-only aircraft all winter. Note that I used the term VMC-only. Can certantly fly IFR on a beautiful blue skies day.

Said no SEL pilot in Florida below 14,000'. Hahaha. Never say never and never say always.

We fly IFR-IMC in our RV all year long in the Sunshine State.
 
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Be careful

Ever experience unexpected icing? Forecasts (especially at altitude) are always accurate, right? Can you blast out of an unexpected layer of icing at 6000fpm for 20k feet like a jet? Hmmm...

Ever had your windscreen completely ice over? I have. It happened unexpectedly and took less than 10 seconds to be completely opaque. Couldn't see sh**. Good thing I was flying a jet and had heavy duty de-icing equipment.

Ever experienced spacial d? I have. Rolled out of a turn a little too fast in the clouds in a T-6 and the world kept spinning. I could barely see the panel. It took every ounce of will power and training I had to keep the plane flying. It was eye-opening.

Ever experience electrical failures? If not, you will. Better hope your back up battery (if you have one) lasts long enough to get to your alternate. Better hope you're not relying on a battery to power the ignition on that one precious engine.

Flying IMC in a single engine piston is like skydiving w/out a reserve parachute. It's fine until something goes wrong. And, it will. It's a matter of when, not if, if you do it enough. There's also that uncanny tendency for things to go wrong at the worst possible time.

I say that, and I'm not a risk averse person. I have ~1000 combat hours, 350+ skydives, a few BASE jumps, paragliding, etc. So, I'm no stranger to taking risks. Just be aware of the gamble you're making. I think many people severely underestimate it.

That said, I trust my -7 in IMC over any spam can.
 
I say that, and I'm not a risk averse person. I have ~1000 combat hours, 350+ skydives, a few BASE jumps, paragliding, etc. So, I'm no stranger to taking risks.

Paragliding? My my, you are a risk taker! Coming from a Hang Glider pilot... ;-)

-Marc
 
Flying IMC in a single engine piston is like skydiving w/out a reserve parachute. It's fine until something goes wrong. And, it will. It's a matter of when, not if, if you do it enough. There's also that uncanny tendency for things to go wrong at the worst possible time.

Drama.

I have taught several Initial Instrument customers in RVs. Following gauges isn't the meat and potatoes of IFR. Decision making is. No one is suggesting flying RVs in Ice. IFR can be done very safely but with good Threat And Error Management.

I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Stuff I fly by (and try to teach):

-Have Personal Minimums

-Don't fly in convective activity.

-Don't fly in ice.

-Land with an hour of fuel.

-Always have an out.

-Proficiency Matters

I never flew combat or base jumped but flew cancelled checks and did charter work for a long time.
 
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E
Flying IMC in a single engine piston is like skydiving w/out a reserve parachute. It's fine until something goes wrong. And, it will. It's a matter of when, not if, if you do it enough. There's also that uncanny tendency for things to go wrong at the worst possible time.

I agree with you..

I avoid SE piston night and hard IMC at all opportunities. Our -6 was IFR and we used it to get through layers/etc but I think the lowest I ever shot an approach in it was around 1,000'.

I don't mind if the bottoms are high enough that I can have some choices when I get through, but I'm not real big on flying a piston in solid IMC to 200'.

I'm starting an RV-8 and trying to decide what capabilities to put into it is a big question. I'd love to have LPV approach capability.
 
Ever experience unexpected icing? Forecasts (especially at altitude) are always accurate, right? Can you blast out of an unexpected layer of icing at 6000fpm for 20k feet like a jet? Hmmm...

Ever had your windscreen completely ice over? I have. It happened unexpectedly and took less than 10 seconds to be completely opaque. Couldn't see sh**. Good thing I was flying a jet and had heavy duty de-icing equipment.

Ever experienced spacial d? I have. Rolled out of a turn a little too fast in the clouds in a T-6 and the world kept spinning. I could barely see the panel. It took every ounce of will power and training I had to keep the plane flying. It was eye-opening.

Ever experience electrical failures? If not, you will. Better hope your back up battery (if you have one) lasts long enough to get to your alternate. Better hope you're not relying on a battery to power the ignition on that one precious engine.

Flying IMC in a single engine piston is like skydiving w/out a reserve parachute. It's fine until something goes wrong. And, it will. It's a matter of when, not if, if you do it enough. There's also that uncanny tendency for things to go wrong at the worst possible time.

I say that, and I'm not a risk averse person. I have ~1000 combat hours, 350+ skydives, a few BASE jumps, paragliding, etc. So, I'm no stranger to taking risks. Just be aware of the gamble you're making. I think many people severely underestimate it.

That said, I trust my -7 in IMC over any spam can.

I've had all the above, in a single engine jet, granted it had an ejection seat. The difference is in all those cases I would not have flown my airplane there, mine is for pleasure and self transport the other I was flying as my job; one was for killing the other for fun.
 
I have an RV6 with a full IFR panel, G3X, GTN650xi, autopilot. I had to file IFR once in 2020 to depart a field with low ceilings. Enroute cleared to VFR, landed VFR. I only consider the use of IFR in my RV as almost a last resort. Without an autopilot, they are not a very stable IFR platform. It's pricey to keep the aircraft up to date with databases and pitot static check.

I consider it a VFR airplane, with IFR as a back up when there are few other alternatives.
 
Drama.

I have taught several Initial Instrument customers in RVs. Following gauges isn't the meat and potatoes of IFR. Decision making is. No one is suggesting flying RVs in Ice. IFR can be done very safely but with good Threat And Error Management.

I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Stuff I fly by (and try to teach):

-Have Personal Minimums

-Don't fly in convective activity.

-Don't fly in ice.

-Land with an hour of fuel.

-Always have an out.

-Proficiency Matters

I never flew combat or base jumped but flew cancelled checks and did charter work for a long time.

One could be the most proficient instrument pilot on Earth, but single engine GA aircraft come with some big limitations. I wouldn’t want to fly in hard IMC unless I had redundant systems, backup instruments, and the ability to tank an engine and have plenty of time to select and glide to a suitable landing area once clear of the clouds. IMC at night would necessitate the ability to keep all instruments powered and easily glide to a lighted runway. Your list of personal limitations is spot on though.
 
One could be the most proficient instrument pilot on Earth, but single engine GA aircraft come with some big limitations. I wouldn’t want to fly in hard IMC unless I had redundant systems, backup instruments, and the ability to tank an engine and have plenty of time to select and glide to a suitable landing area once clear of the clouds. IMC at night would necessitate the ability to keep all instruments powered and easily glide to a lighted runway. Your list of personal limitations is spot on though.

My personal IFR minimums with my RV:

No night night flight

Never over or through a ceiling of less than 1,000 AGL
(I've had stuck a stuck valve / it was VFR. The more time the better if one was engine out and gliding out the bottom of an overcast layer)

BTW: I thought this was a good vid and covers a lot of points brought up in this thread. I have forwarded it to a few IFR customers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-GTZEIV_uQ&t=2s
 
Those are good RV IFR minimums

I will in fact fly at night, but only in very reliable VMC.

I had an electrical failure at night on an instrument flight plan. It took out everything but my G5 (which kept running on the battery) and my iPad with Foreflight. So the safe completion of the flight was never in doubt. I remember thinking that my remaining instrumentation was a lot more than Lindbergh had. :)

But I was really, really glad I was in perfect VMC. I'm confident I could have gotten home in IMC even if I needed a full approach to minimums, albeit with a non-certified GPS source, but that would have been a QUITE a bit more exciting than I would have liked.

I also notice that I've been flying at night less often since that incident....

I canceled an OSH trip a few years back with good weather at both ends, because a big chunk of my route in between was low IFR. I think flying over really low ceilings is worse than flying over open water. I have zero interest in dealing with "clouds with hard centers," as the Brits used to say.

My personal IFR minimums with my RV:

No night night flight

Never over or through a ceiling of less than 1,000 AGL
(I've had stuck a stuck valve / it was VFR. The more time the better if one was engine out and gliding out the bottom of an overcast layer)

BTW: I thought this was a good vid and covers a lot of points brought up in this thread. I have forwarded it to a few IFR customers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-GTZEIV_uQ&t=2s
 
VFR > IFR

VFR flying is so so so much more fun. RV's are probably the funnest and best flying airplanes in all of GA (no they definitely are). Why waste that droning along in the system?

If I have to pick up a clearance while flying my -7, it's a borderline emergency situation and I goofed up my planning/decision making. Modern experimental avionics and foreflight are very good backups in that situation, though. Probably better than anything in the certified world (no definitely better).

Like I said earlier, if lives or business depends on getting there on time, go airlines or charter a pro. For fun, enjoyment, and the pure bliss of flight, take the RV.

There's no reason to file IFR. You can do basically everything VFR. I flew my -7 over the ocean to the Caribbean too. All VFR :D

VFR rules, IFR drools ;)
 
Why fly IFR?

Easy answer, at least where I am. I end up flying in & around metro DC, Philly, Baltimore, NY, sometimes Boston, and traveling in the system in those areas is way, way, way less stressful than going VFR (which I've also done a lot of).

Also, being able to pop above a layer, rather than trying to navigate under that same ragged 1500-foot broken crud, is just a better way to live life.

Obviously the RV isn't always a substitute for travel on commercial flights - Mother Nature must be respected - but when it is, it can be truly glorious. As just one example, I can get to Cape Cod from Quinton VA in under 3 hours on a Friday afternoon. Try that with the airlines.

Having done both in the Bahamas and Dominican Republic, I'd agree that VFR is usually the way to go there. I can't speak to the other Caribbean islands.

VFR flying is so so so much more fun. RV's are probably the funnest and best flying airplanes in all of GA (no they definitely are). Why waste that droning along in the system?

If I have to pick up a clearance while flying my -7, it's a borderline emergency situation and I goofed up my planning/decision making. Modern experimental avionics and foreflight are very good backups in that situation, though. Probably better than anything in the certified world (no definitely better).

Like I said earlier, if lives or business depends on getting there on time, go airlines or charter a pro. For fun, enjoyment, and the pure bliss of flight, take the RV.

There's no reason to file IFR. You can do basically everything VFR. I flew my -7 over the ocean to the Caribbean too. All VFR :D

VFR rules, IFR drools ;)
 
It'd be interesting to see this poll with additional data points next to the votes in terms of overall aviation experience as it relates to willingness to fly certain airframes in solid IMC.
 
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