What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Panel review request, IFR

jcarne

Well Known Member
Patron
Hello, after talking to many people and thinking long and hard I have come up with two options that I am considering. Right now I think I am leaning towards option one with the Dynon SV com due to some sweet features in it but I am certainly not opposed to option two if someone has compelling reasons.

In either case I would greatly appreciate you all looking over the panel as I have it laid out and let me know if I missed anything I need or what you might do differently with the layout.

I am planning my panel for IFR but it will initially be VFR. What does this mean you ask? I want it fully wired for the IFR version so I can just drop the components in. The G5 on the left will initially be a simple airspeed indicator that uses the same size hole. The 430W on the bottom very well could be a GTN 650 instead. Other than those two items everything else should be in the VFR configuration as well.

Finally, the labeling around the switches could change, I'm not super thrilled with how I have it laid out around the master and mag switches right now.

Thanks everyone for your input!!!

Platform:
-RV-7A slider
-IO-360-M1B
-dual mags
-constant speed

Items common to both:
-dual HDX screens
-GMA245 audio panel
-all switches are Honeywell TL series
-master and mag switches are locking
-upper right are USB extension ports for the HDX screens
-lower right is a power plug for IPAD, etc.

Option 1 - Dynon SV com

dynon by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Option 2 - GTR200 com

garmin by Jereme Carne, on Flickr
 
Last edited:
Good for you for not putting all your switches in one long line!

Here's the next step -- write out *all* of your checklists and procedures, day and night, IFR and VFR, even little things like entering clouds (pitot on, strobes off) or after takeoff (flaps up, pump off), and see if your hand operation moves smoothly across the panel or if your hand has to jump back and forth. You obviously want a single direction of motion. This concept is called "flow" in cockpit design.

Also double check FAR23 for standard placement of switches. Why? When somebody else flies this plane, or you fly another plane, you want habits to transfer, not to bite you.

Ed
 
Keep GPS as high as possible - so your eyes don’t have to look down from the AI. In fact there are placement requirements for TSO’d installations. Put the audio panel low. You’ll hardly ever use it. For that matter, if you want to save a few $$, ditch the audio panel and substitute a good intercom, one with multiple unswitched inputs. For 2 coms you’d need to wire in one switch to change from com 1 to com 2.
As Ed mentioned I think having the flap switch to the right of the throttle quadrant is more standard - I’d swap the flaps and aux fuel pump switches.
Do you have electric trim? If so, a prominently placed emergency cut off switch is needed.
My defrost fans are also ‘remove avionic heat’ fans. They’re on a pullable breaker instead of a switch. I cannot think of a reason why I would ever switch them off.
 
Last edited:
You touch the SkyView Knob Panel more than anything else on the panel. Put it where your right hand can easily fall on it (as in low and left). Similarly the Autopilot panel is touched more than your Dynon radio (comm #2). Position it accordingly.

The audio panel is rarely used - keep it out of prime real estate. The 430W (or GTN-650) should be as high as possible.

Look beyond symmetry. Put stuff in priority of use. For example the G5 could be moved so long as it retains it’s back up functionality. Another example is moving the SkyView displays up on the panel - with some work on you switch layout you could free up enough space for a module or the audio panel below the displays.

Your master, aux alt and ignition switches are in prime real estate and perhaps take up more room than needed - but not used in flight (with exceptions for emergency). Consider regaining that space for higher priority items.

I only flew one plane with the Garmin GTR200 radio. Even though install was verified it’s performance fell short of the mark. On the other hand the Dynon radio in my planes performs as well as the GTN-650 radio. On one install the owner uses it as Comm #1 instead of the GTN-650.

Carl
 
Last edited:
Can't comment on the avionics except I asked some shops about Garmin vs Dynon radios and they felt the Garmin's are better. I do like the Dynon quick buttons for ATIS, etc. though. I know I hear a lot of transmissions from distant airports on my Icom A200 that my buddy doesn't hear on his Dynon radio. Could just be a setting, I don't know.

I would move a couple switches though.
I would go: Strobes, Nav, taxi, landing. At least put the strobe on the end so you can find it by feel in case you get in the clouds. Strobes and landing on the end are easier to find without looking. The other two can be more head-down if needed.
I "thumb" my flaps and it works great, so I'd leave that where you have it.
I might swap the boost pump and pitot heat positions.
I'd probably would move the cabin and fan switches over by the dimmers, but why do you need a cabin and panel light switch if you have dimmers? Just crank them down all the way.
I would also guard that start switch. Don't want to be hitting that accidentally. I don't really like start on the mag toggle, but at least guard it or use a locking type pull toggle that requires a pull to get up to the momentary start position.
 
Good for you for not putting all your switches in one long line!

Here's the next step -- write out *all* of your checklists and procedures, day and night, IFR and VFR, even little things like entering clouds (pitot on, strobes off) or after takeoff (flaps up, pump off), and see if your hand operation moves smoothly across the panel or if your hand has to jump back and forth. You obviously want a single direction of motion. This concept is called "flow" in cockpit design.

Also double check FAR23 for standard placement of switches. Why? When somebody else flies this plane, or you fly another plane, you want habits to transfer, not to bite you.

Ed

Haha ya I have seen a few panels where the switches are all in a line. Would get super confusing. Good idea on the checklists.

Keep GPS as high as possible - so your eyes don?t have to look down from the AI. In fact there are placement requirements for TSO?d installations. Put the audio panel low. You?ll hardly ever use it. For that matter, if you want to save a few $$, ditch the audio panel and substitute a good intercom, one with multiple unswitched inputs. For 2 coms you?d need to wire in one switch to change from com 1 to com 2.
As Ed mentioned I think having the flap switch to the right of the throttle quadrant is more standard - I?d swap the flaps and aux fuel pump switches.
Do you have electric trim? If so, a prominently placed emergency cut off switch is needed.
My defrost fans are also ?remove avionic heat? fans. They?re on a pullable breaker instead of a switch. I cannot think of a reason why I would ever switch them off.

Bob, thanks for the input. I will try and keep the GPS as high as I can, makes sense. I am limited to some degree though as there is a rib that angles down and will get in the way of that device. I also thought about the intercom as well but the audio panel has some features that I really want.

Electric trim yes but the A/P control module has a runaway trim cut off built in to it. Probably still a good idea to have a switch on it though.


You touch the SkyView Knob Panel more than anything else on the panel. Put it where your right hand can easily fall on it (as in low and left). Similarly the Autopilot panel is touched more than your Dynon radio (comm #2). Position it accordingly.

The audio panel is rarely used - keep it out of prime real estate. The 430W (or GTN-650) should be as high as possible.

Good point, although I'm not super concerned on this. Look at an SR-22 panel and how low them things are. Not saying it's better, but a few inches isn't too worrisome.

Look beyond symmetry. Put stuff in priority of use. For example the G5 could be moved so long as it retains it?s back up functionality. Another example is moving the SkyView displays up on the panel - with some work on you switch layout you could free up enough space for a module or the audio panel below the displays.

Good idea but I'm afraid the HDX button area sticks out a fair amount and may "cover" anything below it if close enough.

Your master, aux alt and ignition switches are in prime real estate and perhaps take up more room than needed - but not used in flight (with exceptions for emergency). Consider regaining that space for higher priority items.

They might take up some prime real estate but I also deem this area "the awkward" area of a panel for the right hand while in flight. Nice location but you have to reach across your body to some degree.

I only flew one plane with the Garmin GTR200 radio. Even though install was verified it?s performance fell short of the mark. On the other hand the Dynon radio in my planes performs as well as the GTN-650 radio. On one install the owner uses it as Comm #1 instead of the GTN-650.

I really appreciate that data point Carl. I am leaning Dynon but I have heard many comments about their lack of performance compared to Garmin so it's nice to see that isn't always the case.

Carl

Can't comment on the avionics except I asked some shops about Garmin vs Dynon radios and they felt the Garmin's are better. I do like the Dynon quick buttons for ATIS, etc. though. I know I hear a lot of transmissions from distant airports on my Icom A200 that my buddy doesn't hear on his Dynon radio. Could just be a setting, I don't know.

I have heard this same thing from many people which is why I'm considering a Garmin com setup instead. Thanks for the data point.

I would move a couple switches though.
I would go: Strobes, Nav, taxi, landing. At least put the strobe on the end so you can find it by feel in case you get in the clouds. Strobes and landing on the end are easier to find without looking. The other two can be more head-down if needed.

Great idea on the lighting switch arrangement. Makes way more sense to put the strobe on the outside as well since it is more heavily used than the nav and taxi.

I "thumb" my flaps and it works great, so I'd leave that where you have it.
I might swap the boost pump and pitot heat positions.

I debated this same thing when I was working on the CAD model. My thought for the boost pump was to keep it away from flaps as I will rarely use pitot heat but boost quite often and I didn't want to accidentally hit the flaps.

I'd probably would move the cabin and fan switches over by the dimmers, but why do you need a cabin and panel light switch if you have dimmers? Just crank them down all the way.

Stupid ME! You just saved me $26 bucks, the dimmers go full off. Thanks!

I would also guard that start switch. Don't want to be hitting that accidentally. I don't really like start on the mag toggle, but at least guard it or use a locking type pull toggle that requires a pull to get up to the momentary start position.

Yep them switches are the locking kind (spring back to center from top) and wired in such a way that it won't start unless the right mag is off.
 
I think you'll find that on a certified SR22 that there are two GPS units, and that that way-low one is placarded "not for IFR use as primary" or some such words.

I'm just curious what audio panel functions you think you'll want or use (that an intercom with aux inputs doesn't offer).

As for coms, Trig has just recently come out with a new com. Too new to have heard any reviews/evaluations, but you might keep your eye on it - so you'll know more about it when you're ready to make the buy decision. (In case you didn't know, the Dynon transponder is made by Trig.)
 
The Airliners I flew where never that flash, doesn't anyone look out the window anymore and enjoy the view?:D
 
Audio Panel

I've gotta say . . . . I touch my audio panel all the time. With 2 COMs and periodically having to listen to NAV IDs, its rare to have a flight where I didn't touch it multiple times. I typically put AWOS/ASOS on COM2 and various unicom or ATC freqs on COM1. Not unusual to listen to COM2 for a bit while monitoring COM1. (and there is the occasional fiddle with the right volume knob for XM radio tunes :) )

Everybody has their preferred processes . . . . . . .
 
I have the HDX in my RV-7. You don't really need 2 HDX screens. That's way overkill. Save the money and buy a Garmin GTN-650 or 750 to replace that 430W. Better yet (and less expensive) is the Avidyne IFD-540. I have the GTN-750 in my Saratoga and the IFD-540 in my RV-7, and honestly I like the IFD-540 better.

Good luck on your design!
 
I've gotta say . . . . I touch my audio panel all the time. With 2 COMs and periodically having to listen to NAV IDs, its rare to have a flight where I didn't touch it multiple times. I typically put AWOS/ASOS on COM2 and various unicom or ATC freqs on COM1. Not unusual to listen to COM2 for a bit while monitoring COM1. (and there is the occasional fiddle with the right volume knob for XM radio tunes :) )

Everybody has their preferred processes . . . . . . .

My simple SL-40 has a button where I monitor Freq#2 while I'm using Freq #1. If I hear anything I just touch one button on the SL-40 and flip flop to the Freq#2.
 
I have the HDX in my RV-7. You don't really need 2 HDX screens. That's way overkill. Save the money and buy a Garmin GTN-650 or 750 to replace that 430W. Better yet (and less expensive) is the Avidyne IFD-540. I have the GTN-750 in my Saratoga and the IFD-540 in my RV-7, and honestly I like the IFD-540 better.

Good luck on your design!

If you don't mind me asking, how much did the IFD540 run you? When I was looking at the Avidyne units a while back as a Garmin alternative, from my limited research it seemed the Avidyne units were more expensive. For example a quick web search shows a $10,350 price tag for an IFD440 vs $9979 for a GTN650.

That said, I do like the design philosophy of Avidyne better than Garmin. It's the same reason I like the Dynon EFIS - almost every function can be performed either with a touch gesture on the screen or a physical button press. I like having that second option for those bumpy days. And it seems like Avidyne has a similar setup, unlike the 650 which pretty much 100% requires touch. I've enjoyed flying behind a 650 in rentals - boy is it ever a lear forward over the 430 - but there are definitely times on hot days when it's tough to get it to do what I want. Anchoring on the bezel only helps so much...
 
Here's my IFR HDX panel. Not flying yet but will be shortly.

I chose the Avidyne IFD-440

Travis

2aenuk8.jpg
 
I have the HDX in my RV-7. You don't really need 2 HDX screens. That's way overkill. Save the money and buy a Garmin GTN-650 or 750 to replace that 430W. Better yet (and less expensive) is the Avidyne IFD-540. I have the GTN-750 in my Saratoga and the IFD-540 in my RV-7, and honestly I like the IFD-540 better.

Good luck on your design!

I second that emotion wrt the pax side big screen. Kudos for choosing the G5 as backup PFD! That is the one instrument that will be in every airplane I ever own. The big Dynon on the right is a waste of space and, with wiring, about 6 pounds you don’t need to carry around. Consider instead an iPad 11” pro on a ram mount the allows you to aim it right at your eyeballs. When all the other hoopla goes belly up, it and the G5 could save your life. That is an essential part of the Garmin Suite I’m installing now(iPad 10.5 pro shown but I’m upgrading to 11”). Another suggestion would be to put the PFD higher up on the panel, and the gps navigator at the top. Does not matter much in hard IFR, but what percentage of your flying will be hard IFR? The rest of the time, there is a huge safety advantage in gaving important instruments as near to the outside view as possible. Note the lengths I went to to put the G3X and the GTN750( my MFD) as high as humanly possible.- Otis
2v2E7w7YWxBELK5.jpg
 
Last edited:
I second that emotion wrt the pax side big screen. Kudos for choosing the G5 as backup PFD! That is the one instrument that will be in every airplane I ever own. The big Dynon on the right is a waste of space and, with wiring, about 6 pounds you don?t need to carry around. Consider instead an iPad 11? pro on a ram mount the allows you to aim it right at your eyeballs. When all the other hoopla goes belly up, it and the G5 could save your life. That is an essential part of the Garmin Suite I?m installing now(iPad 10.5 pro shown but I?m upgrading to 11?). Another suggestion would be to put the PFD higher up on the panel, and the gps navigator at the top. Does not matter much in hard IFR, but what percentage of your flying will be hard IFR? The rest of the time, there is a huge safety advantage in gaving important instruments as near to the outside view as possible. Note the lengths I went to to put the G3X and the GTN750( my MFD) as high as humanly possible.- Otis
2v2E7w7YWxBELK5.jpg

I agree. I have the Dynon D-180 with autopilot and was considering changing everything to Skyview but for now I think I?m just going to add the Garmin 175 and an iPad installed in the panel as a backup EFIS. It has the synthetic vision and charts and then I?d have everything I need for light IFR.
 
I've gotta say . . . . I touch my audio panel all the time. With 2 COMs and periodically having to listen to NAV IDs, its rare to have a flight where I didn't touch it multiple times. I typically put AWOS/ASOS on COM2 and various unicom or ATC freqs on COM1. Not unusual to listen to COM2 for a bit while monitoring COM1. (and there is the occasional fiddle with the right volume knob for XM radio tunes :) )

Everybody has their preferred processes . . . . . . .

Interesting...I fly exactly the same with my intercom plus extra unswitched inputs. When I want to hear ATIS on com 2, I just turn up the com 2 volume. When I want to ID a VOR I just push the ID button on my SL30, and I hear the morse code. And when I want to hear the xm music, I have a volume control for that, too. Wife has her own volume knobs, so she can set them as she likes.
 
Interesting...I fly exactly the same with my intercom plus extra unswitched inputs. When I want to hear ATIS on com 2, I just turn up the com 2 volume. When I want to ID a VOR I just push the ID button on my SL30, and I hear the morse code. And when I want to hear the xm music, I have a volume control for that, too. Wife has her own volume knobs, so she can set them as she likes.

You?re saying you don?t have an audio panel just all radios connected to the intercom with the volumes lowered and you raise whatever you want to hear? Then just a switch for the PTTs?
 
A contrasting viewpoint on the "second screen" discussion: As of this moment, my panel plan for my -8 includes two 10" HDX screens (as well as redundant ADAHRS). Previous plans included only a single screen, and a G5 for a backup. My rationale for this current plan (second HDX instead of G5) essentially goes as follows:

Pros:
  • Backup primary instruments provide little to no degradation in capabilities
  • In normal use, the backup instrument provides added value/capability, as opposed to a G5 which is essentially a paperweight until something breaks

Cons:
  • Arguable loss of redundancy - classic example would be a software bug in the SV that bricks a display. Most likely kills everything in this scenario.
  • On a similar note, less independence between primary/backup systems

For my mission (VFR and the age-old "light IFR"), I feel like the pros and cons even out pretty well. As I said, right now I'm tending towards two HDXs, but I'm not hard settled on that decision. If nothing else, budget factors may change what I end up with, since there's a pretty big cost difference between a G5 and a second HDX.
 
If you don't mind me asking, how much did the IFD540 run you? When I was looking at the Avidyne units a while back as a Garmin alternative, from my limited research it seemed the Avidyne units were more expensive. For example a quick web search shows a $10,350 price tag for an IFD440 vs $9979 for a GTN650.

I traded a GNS-530W for a used IFD-540. I found an avionics dealer in Colorado who had the IFD-540 on the shelf. I think I paid something like $6,000 for the trade up.

The nice thing was that the IFD-540 perfectly matched the GNS-530W tray and connectors. Perfectly.

I fly in a lot of turbulence out here in the mountain west, hot days, etc. The IFD-540 is so much easier to work with in the bumps. But more importantly, the route planning, loading and changing more closely matches the FMS in my Boeing at work.

But don't get me wrong, I am quite happy with my GTN-750 in another plane. I just like the 540 better in my -7. I'm not a fanboy or hater of either Garmin or Avidyne. They're both excellent.
 
The big Dynon on the right is a waste of space and, with wiring, about 6 pounds you don?t need to carry around. Consider instead an iPad 11? pro on a ram mount the allows you to aim it right at your eyeballs.
2v2E7w7YWxBELK5.jpg

Yep, this is exactly what I do. Here's why:

1. Foreflight! The iPad, especially when wifi linked to your Skyview HDX, is the best and fastest way to look at the sectional or IFR charts, view approach plates, play with route change ideas, see ADS-B data, etc. It's just a way better mousetrap for certain things.

2. Movies! There's nothing like playing a movie for you and your passenger on a long haul flight. My passengers love it. I dare say they love it more than the possibility of staring at a redundant HDX screen for hours on end.

3. IFD-100! If you install an Avidyne IFD-540 or 440, they have a free iPad app called IFD-100 that is actually a second, fully functional IFD unit. It's like having two IFDs for the price of one. Kinda cool.

Here's a photo of my RV-7 panel:

ofn.jpg
 
Holy smokes I got some catchin up to do, great replies guys

I think you'll find that on a certified SR22 that there are two GPS units, and that that way-low one is placarded "not for IFR use as primary" or some such words.

I believe that is correct but both GPS units are extremely low.

I'm just curious what audio panel functions you think you'll want or use (that an intercom with aux inputs doesn't offer).

The GMA245 has Bluetooth (no cord for intercom with aux port) and I really want the playback function it offers. A few times I have forgotten later in the flight what was said to me by ATC or they said so much in one go I had a hard time getting it all. The playback let's me listen to it again. Something I could live without: yes. Something I still want: yes. haha

As for coms, Trig has just recently come out with a new com. Too new to have heard any reviews/evaluations, but you might keep your eye on it - so you'll know more about it when you're ready to make the buy decision. (In case you didn't know, the Dynon transponder is made by Trig. I am aware of this)

I'll have to keep an eye out, thanks for the tip

I've gotta say . . . . I touch my audio panel all the time. With 2 COMs and periodically having to listen to NAV IDs, its rare to have a flight where I didn't touch it multiple times. I typically put AWOS/ASOS on COM2 and various unicom or ATC freqs on COM1. Not unusual to listen to COM2 for a bit while monitoring COM1. (and there is the occasional fiddle with the right volume knob for XM radio tunes :) )

I agree with this as well with the planes I have flown

Everybody has their preferred processes . . . . . . .

I have the HDX in my RV-7. You don't really need 2 HDX screens. That's way overkill. Save the money and buy a Garmin GTN-650 or 750 to replace that 430W. Better yet (and less expensive) is the Avidyne IFD-540. I have the GTN-750 in my Saratoga and the IFD-540 in my RV-7, and honestly I like the IFD-540 better.

Good luck on your design!

Thanks for the input! I will probably get a chance to test your theory as the second HDX probably won't be there initially. I definitely might turn out to agree with you; I can definitely see some reasons now.

Here's my IFR HDX panel. Not flying yet but will be shortly.

I chose the Avidyne IFD-440

Travis

2aenuk8.jpg


Holy smokes it's my panels cousin! :D That looks great! I even plan on using the same panel covering.

I second that emotion wrt the pax side big screen. Kudos for choosing the G5 as backup PFD! Ya that was a no brainer there :D That is the one instrument that will be in every airplane I ever own. The big Dynon on the right is a waste of space and, with wiring, about 6 pounds you don?t need to carry around. Consider instead an iPad 11? pro on a ram mount the allows you to aim it right at your eyeballs. When all the other hoopla goes belly up, it and the G5 could save your life. That is an essential part of the Garmin Suite I?m installing now(iPad 10.5 pro shown but I?m upgrading to 11?). Another suggestion would be to put the PFD higher up on the panel, and the gps navigator at the top. Depending on what I go with this could be tough to put all the way at the top because of the center rib behind the panel, it angles down a bit. Does not matter much in hard IFR, but what percentage of your flying will be hard IFR? The rest of the time, there is a huge safety advantage in gaving important instruments as near to the outside view as possible. Note the lengths I went to to put the G3X and the GTN750( my MFD) as high as humanly possible.- Otis

Ya I'm really starting to be sold on your guys's IPAD setups, some saving to be had there too. Well it would probably just funnel that money into a quicker GPS buy for me. haha :D

2v2E7w7YWxBELK5.jpg

Yep, this is exactly what I do. Here's why:

1. Foreflight! The iPad, especially when wifi linked to your Skyview HDX, is the best and fastest way to look at the sectional or IFR charts, view approach plates, play with route change ideas, see ADS-B data, etc. It's just a way better mousetrap for certain things.

2. Movies! There's nothing like playing a movie for you and your passenger on a long haul flight. My passengers love it. I dare say they love it more than the possibility of staring at a redundant HDX screen for hours on end.

3. IFD-100! If you install an Avidyne IFD-540 or 440, they have a free iPad app called IFD-100 that is actually a second, fully functional IFD unit. It's like having two IFDs for the price of one. Kinda cool.

Here's a photo of my RV-7 panel:

That's a good looking panel there. Like I said above, you guys may have sold me on one screen and an IPAD. Has a nice benefit of being able to perhaps buy a better GPS too.

ofn.jpg
 
My panel:
23f2.jpg


FWIW: Since I fly actual IMC often enough, my panel has 3 independent displays each with a separate ADAHRS unit (not GPS data).

Why? If one unit completely dies in actual IMC, then a second one will be good enough to get you safely on the ground. But if one of them doesn't completely die but is providing wrong information, without a 3rd unit as "tie breaker" you have no idea which one is right and which one will kill you. This is the reason for "triple redundancy" in critical flight information systems. It all boils down to YOUR mission and YOUR risk tolerance so YMMV

:cool:
 
Last edited:
I have the HDX in my RV-7. You don't really need 2 HDX screens. That's way overkill. Save the money and buy a Garmin GTN-650 or 750 to replace that 430W. Better yet (and less expensive) is the Avidyne IFD-540. I have the GTN-750 in my Saratoga and the IFD-540 in my RV-7, and honestly I like the IFD-540 better.

Good luck on your design!


Another advantage of dumping the second panel-mounted big screen in favor of an iPad is that the iPad becomes the instrument you take to the hotel with you. You do all of your flight planning and weather briefing in the comfort of your room and arrive at the plane ready to go. My new Garmin panel has four ways to communicate via bluetooth with the iPad so all the flight planning work can be transferred with a button press. I still have not decided wether to stick with ForeFlight, which has good cooperative partnerships with Garmin and Dynon, or to use Garmin Pilot, but either way the iPad remains as valuable as any other instrument, and represents a form of true informational redundancy. -Otis
 
Hi Jereme, my last RV7 I built with a Garmin 430 WAAS and was certified for IFR and my dual GRT EFIS, for my new RV7 kit I was looking at the Garmin GNC 255 Series VHF NAV/COM/VOR/ILS/GS Radio for $6595.00 but they don't mention WASS or IFR certified on any spec so I think you may have to buy something else for it. It also doesn't mention ARINC, WAAS which you need or if it would work with any thing other than the Garmin products such as the GX3. If anyone knows let me know.
I do like your panel's. Cheers-Bob
 
One of the biggest reasons for me to have the second HDX screen on the other side is I'll be able to fly from both seats without having to look across the panel.
 
Another advantage of dumping the second panel-mounted big screen in favor of an iPad is that the iPad becomes the instrument you take to the hotel with you. You do all of your flight planning and weather briefing in the comfort of your room and arrive at the plane ready to go. My new Garmin panel has four ways to communicate via bluetooth with the iPad so all the flight planning work can be transferred with a button press. I still have not decided wether to stick with ForeFlight, which has good cooperative partnerships with Garmin and Dynon, or to use Garmin Pilot, but either way the iPad remains as valuable as any other instrument, and represents a form of true informational redundancy. -Otis

All good points here Otis.

Hi Jereme, my last RV7 I built with a Garmin 430 WAAS and was certified for IFR and my dual GRT EFIS, for my new RV7 kit I was looking at the Garmin GNC 255 Series VHF NAV/COM/VOR/ILS/GS Radio for $6595.00 but they don't mention WASS or IFR certified on any spec so I think you may have to buy something else for it. It also doesn't mention ARINC, WAAS which you need or if it would work with any thing other than the Garmin products such as the GX3. If anyone knows let me know.
I do like your panel's. Cheers-Bob

Ya after looking at the Avidyne website and the comparison sheet to Garmin I'm pretty well sold on either the Avidyne 440 or 540.

One of the biggest reasons for me to have the second HDX screen on the other side is I'll be able to fly from both seats without having to look across the panel.

Ya that's a good idea. No way am I going to fly from the right seat so no biggy if I drop the second screen.
 
It's also worth considering what combinations of information you want displayed on the windows (screens or half screens), and how much time you'll have to swap windows in various phases of flight. This will be different for VFR and IFR.

For IFR, I think that three information windows is a useful minimum, and I get that with two screens (configured as four windows). It's not clear that an iPad would always work as that third information display window.

There's also some information (screens) that, if you think about it, is really nice to have or for curiosity's sake rather than really necessary.

I had an early iPad that overheated easily and was hard to read in direct sunlight, and so I lost interest in them. Also, I've never had a flight plan so complex that loading it in advance motivated me to actually do it.

My mileage obviously varies...

Ed
 
Thanks for the comments so far guys. Many good ideas represented in this thread. I hope someone in the future also finds it as useful as I did.

Well here is where I am at now. I think I will go with one screen and an iPad and see how I like it. If I feel the need to add the second screen I have it planned so that the space is still there. I will probably go ahead and install any wiring needed ahead of time too so when I eventually sell the plane the buyer has the option to easily add it if they want.

I also caught the fact that the panel Van's has in their CAD model is NOT the same dimension as in real life; it doesn't have the bottom bend in it which takes about an inch off. Good thing I caught that because it definitely moved some things around.

Some Notes:
-I'm going to go with the Garmin COM as I simply couldn't get a layout I liked with the Dynon while ALSO not getting interference with the ribs.
-I decided on an Avidyne IFD-440 after reviewing their website and a few different comparisons to the Garmin 650. The more I read, it became easy to make that decision
-Many people might say move the HDX or the Avidyne up but I have the ribs in the CAD model as well and they are both as high as they can go without interfering with the ribs. Unfortunately, this is ultimately why I couldn't go with the IFD-540 but that's okay, I'll save 3k instead. :D
-I redid the switch labeling to something I'm more happy with.
-I swapped the a/p and knob module as it makes more sense to have the knob module closer to you since you use it more
-The audio panel is now down low


Anyways let me know what you all think but I'm pretty happy with it now.

FINAL PANEL by Jereme Carne, on Flickr
 
Hi Jereme, my last RV7 I built with a Garmin 430 WAAS and was certified for IFR and my dual GRT EFIS, for my new RV7 kit I was looking at the Garmin GNC 255 Series VHF NAV/COM/VOR/ILS/GS Radio for $6595.00 but they don't mention WASS or IFR certified on any spec so I think you may have to buy something else for it. It also doesn't mention ARINC, WAAS which you need or if it would work with any thing other than the Garmin products such as the GX3. If anyone knows let me know.
I do like your panel's. Cheers-Bob

The GNC is a nav-com. WAAS is for GPS. No connection between the two.
The Garmin list price is $2K less than what you posted.
The 255 almost certainly carries a TSO, but it?s not required for part 91 ops.
The 255 has an ARINC output, but whether or not the software is proprietary to Garmin, or not, you?ll need to ask the EFIS (or CDI, etc) manufacturer.
 
Thanks for the comments so far guys. Many good ideas represented in this thread. I hope someone in the future also finds it as useful as I did.

Well here is where I am at now. I think I will go with one screen and an iPad and see how I like it. If I feel the need to add the second screen I have it planned so that the space is still there. I will probably go ahead and install any wiring needed ahead of time too so when I eventually sell the plane the buyer has the option to easily add it if they want.

I also caught the fact that the panel Van's has in their CAD model is NOT the same dimension as in real life; it doesn't have the bottom bend in it which takes about an inch off. Good thing I caught that because it definitely moved some things around.

Some Notes:
-I'm going to go with the Garmin COM as I simply couldn't get a layout I liked with the Dynon while ALSO not getting interference with the ribs.
-I decided on an Avidyne IFD-440 after reviewing their website and a few different comparisons to the Garmin 650. The more I read, it became easy to make that decision
-Many people might say move the HDX or the Avidyne up but I have the ribs in the CAD model as well and they are both as high as they can go without interfering with the ribs. Unfortunately, this is ultimately why I couldn't go with the IFD-540 but that's okay, I'll save 3k instead. :D
-I redid the switch labeling to something I'm more happy with.
-I swapped the a/p and knob module as it makes more sense to have the knob module closer to you since you use it more
-The audio panel is now down low


Anyways let me know what you all think but I'm pretty happy with it now.

FINAL PANEL by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Since you?re going with the iPad you might want to do a search here for a thread about a company that has a small button and knob panel you place below the iPad and it has a proprietary box that gives you another EFIS. It?s about $500 so not expensive either.
 
Since you?re going with the iPad you might want to do a search here for a thread about a company that has a small button and knob panel you place below the iPad and it has a proprietary box that gives you another EFIS. It?s about $500 so not expensive either.

How interesting. I think I found it from a company called Open Flight Solutions.
 
How interesting. I think I found it from a company called Open Flight Solutions.

Yes, that?s the one I?m considering. I?ll leave the engine monitoring to the Dynon since it?s already installed but use the iPad with their system as a backup EFIS plus WingX for everything else.
 
Not the greatest picture, but I agree on the big screen on the right being a waste. This is my 6A IFR panel. I’ve got the switches laid out in flight phase, everything is easily in my view and reach. The flap switch is activated with my index finder while I have a good grip on the throttle. My iPad mounts to the stick right in front of me, and easier to use there than fixed in place across the panel. It is all very ergonomic.

4u802a.jpg
 
Last edited:
To Bob Turner: Well thanks for the info just a Nav/com radio. Here is where I got the price: http://www.chiefaircraft.com/gmn-gnc255.html

I see. You're quoting the 16 Watt version price. 10 Watts (much cheaper!) should be plenty for an RV, unless you're regularly getting up into the flight levels (!).
I see the installation manual says it's compatible with the SL-30. If true, then most EFIS units should support this nav/com via an RS232 hook up.
 
The flap switch is activated with my index finder while I have a good grip on the throttle.
You may want to add your throttle, mixture and prop (if you have a CS) into the layout to insure that you are happy with the position of the flaps and boost pump switches so easy to get to with your hand on the throttle.
 
Not the greatest picture, but I agree on the big screen on the right being a waste. This is my 6A IFR panel. I?ve got the switches laid out in flight phase, everything is easily in my view and reach. The flap switch is activated with my index finder while I have a good grip on the throttle. My iPad mounts to the stick right in front of me, and easier to use there than fixed in place across the panel. It is all very ergonomic.

4u802a.jpg

Great looking panel you got there!
 
Jeremy,

What program are you using to lay out the panels? Looks nice.

Fred

Thanks Fred. That is SolidWorks I'm using. A skill acquired when I was an engineer. Now I teach it to high school students. Great program. Now that I'm thinking about it I believe you can get a copy through EAA. You are also looking at a render and not just what you see in the program while running it.
 
Last edited:
I would replace the Garmin G5 with a Dynon PocketPanel.

The reason is that the PocketPanel does not tie into your pitot or static system. Should one of them be compromised, the PocketPanel will continue to work while the other systems may have issues. The physical display is the same and it only need an electrical connection to charge its internal battery.
 
This is an interesting discussion since I will be doing mine in the near future. I do have a question about the transmit power of some of the Dynon or GRT internal radios since they are all in the 5 to 8 watt range. Is there anyone using them and what is your review of their transmit range. when you fly into a class B 30 mile range you do need a good radio. I have used the internet and haven't heard of any bad or good things about them.

The other question is what everyone is talking about, Where to get cheaper IFR GPS/Nav/com radio

Thanks-Bob
 
I would replace the Garmin G5 with a Dynon PocketPanel.

The reason is that the PocketPanel does not tie into your pitot or static system. Should one of them be compromised, the PocketPanel will continue to work while the other systems may have issues. The physical display is the same and it only need an electrical connection to charge its internal battery.

I already have the pitot and static run up to the front so no problem there. I also wanted a different brand on my redundant attitude indicator. The pocket panel does look like a good option too though.

The other question is what everyone is talking about, Where to get cheaper IFR GPS/Nav/com radio

Thanks-Bob

haha you figure that one out you let the whole world know. Dang them things are pricey!
 
This is an interesting discussion since I will be doing mine in the near future. I do have a question about the transmit power of some of the Dynon or GRT internal radios since they are all in the 5 to 8 watt range. Is there anyone using them and what is your review of their transmit range. when you fly into a class B 30 mile range you do need a good radio. I have used the internet and haven't heard of any bad or good things about them.

The other question is what everyone is talking about, Where to get cheaper IFR GPS/Nav/com radio

Thanks-Bob

VHF radios are essentially line of sight, e.g., to the horizon. All the power in the world won?t help if the receiving station is beyond the horizon. Of course, the higher you go, the further away the horizon is, so airliners up in the flight levels usually equip with a bit more power. But below FL180 5-8 watts is all you need. More important is having a decent antenna installation.
As to lower cost ifr (e.g., ?approved?) gps, Garmin?s latest boxes have brought down the price somewhat. The barrier is the very high cost of obtaining a TSO, and the relatively small market. The only hope I see is if the FAA decides to approve the use of non-TSO?d gps for ifr use. I used to say ?this will never happen?. But recently they have allowed the use of non-TSO?d EFIS units (as an AI replacement, only) in normally certified aircraft. I thought that would never happen either, so there may be hope.
 
Jereme - I like your final layout.
I?d like to add a small suggestion for a few others who, like myself, wear progressive lenses. I taped a vertical strip of paper, with fine lettering, to my panel. Then sat in my normal vfr position, my line of sight going thru the top half of my glasses and out the windscreen. Then, without moving my head, I lowered my eyes and noted which letter was in sharpest focus. That?s where I placed my AI, which resulted in my efis being a bit lower than most installations. But I can go from the gauges to vfr and vice versa with no head movement. This kind of customization is one of the nice things about EAB. Build the airplane You want!
 
Jereme - I like your final layout.
I?d like to add a small suggestion for a few others who, like myself, wear progressive lenses. I taped a vertical strip of paper, with fine lettering, to my panel. Then sat in my normal vfr position, my line of sight going thru the top half of my glasses and out the windscreen. Then, without moving my head, I lowered my eyes and noted which letter was in sharpest focus. That?s where I placed my AI, which resulted in my efis being a bit lower than most installations. But I can go from the gauges to vfr and vice versa with no head movement. This kind of customization is one of the nice things about EAB. Build the airplane You want!

Thanks Bob! Now I can finish up my wiring diagram and tap into the VAF brain trust one more time. :D After that should be smooth sailing... haha jk there is always something
 
Data base costs

One item to consider is the long term cost of nav data updates. Assuming full US coverage, nav data only:

- For the GTN-650 you can choose Jepp data for about $480/year, or the Garmin nav data option for $299/year.
- For the IFD440, I think the only option is Jepp at $480/year.

So it seems that using the Garmin product gives you the option to save about $180/year on nav data costs.
 
If you remove the Garmin COM radio, are you sure you wouldn't have enough room for all 3 Dynon modules in a vertical layout? The capability of your HDX to send all the frequencies to the Dynon radio for single button selection of GND/TWR/ATIS/ATC/WX is a wonderful convenience and capability that you're giving up by going with the Garmin comm radio.
 
The panel looks great. My only question (and this is a generalized panel question) is why do people put the small backup EFIS like the Dynon D10a or Garmin G5 on the left side of the panel?

It'd seem to me that were you actually in need of the backup due to main EFIS failure and say... sitting in the right seat that your angle of vision to it would be limited?

On yours though I love the simple switch layout.
 
Back
Top