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What octane?

Mconner7

Well Known Member
I just read an article by Mike Busch about some California airports banning 100LL. I know some folks have used unleaded Mo-gas for years but with the trend toward higher compression engines and electronic injection and ignition, how does one quantify if an alternative is safe to use?
 
Note that this is the decision of one county in California. Probably it is a county owned and operated airport.
 
Note that this is the decision of one county in California. Probably it is a county owned and operated airport.

One is KRHV in San Jose. Built years ago in a pasture, it’s now closely surrounded by houses and shopping malls, and the new neighbors are not so neighborly. Lead contamination is only the latest ploy to close the airport.
 
I just read an article by Mike Busch about some California airports banning 100LL. I know some folks have used unleaded Mo-gas for years but with the trend toward higher compression engines and electronic injection and ignition, how does one quantify if an alternative is safe to use?

If you read the article, you saw the link for what Lycoming states about their engines. Here it is again. Table three. Not sure trend is high compression, or electronic ignition…. But it is a choice.

https://savvyaviation.us5.list-mana...8f8fec1b9da00eedbd&id=bf6bada7fc&e=b0404c26c4
 
Programmable EIs allow you to safely run Mogas in any Lycoming engine with std CRs. Simply retard the timing at high MAPs, re-advance at lower MAPs in cruise.

In any case, it seems like unleaded avgas is just around the corner with the recent efforts of GAMI and Swift in particular.
 
Programmable EIs allow you to safely run Mogas in any Lycoming engine with std CRs. Simply retard the timing at high MAPs, re-advance at lower MAPs in cruise.

In any case, it seems like unleaded avgas is just around the corner with the recent efforts of GAMI and Swift in particular.

Boy...I don't know. It's been a topic of ongoing discussion for a long time...increasingly intense over the last 20 years. I'm sure it will happen someday, maybe soon, but there's a lot of money at stake and not that much of it is in the piston aviation segment.

The good news is that MANY piston aviation engines can handle exiting formulations and octane. If you look at Lycoming's table, there are a LOT of little black dots. But note that Lycoming makes a big distinction between pump gas and airworthy aviation fuel of the same ASTM D7547 or ASTM D4814 category. I know a lot of people, and I've seen them post here, that have been pulling their factory Lycomings up to the gas station for years without a problem, but for me...my criteria are that Lycoming endorse the specific fuel that I use, and that my airport have it available on the truck that pulls up to my hangar. At that point, I'm all-in with unleaded fuel.

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My understanding from some that have been working on the GAMI replacement is the process of local and state agencies banning 100LL is what will bring the transfer to 100U.
Basically 100LL gets banned and it is left to the vendor to source the replacement.
All current indications are the GAMI 100U is a direct intermixable replacement for 100LL.
Apparently 100LL is the only fuel that still contains lead, forcing distribution on an isolated network. Not containing lead, 100U can be distributed with a common network.
The issue remains in production capacity.
 
It's pretty clear this is a political stunt, which is short sighted and unfortunate. However...

We are still running essentially the same fuel, same induction systems (carbs and mechanical fuel injection), and same magnetos that we were at the end of World War 2! I'm sorry guys, but we have to do better. You can buy lawn mowers with electronic fuel injection.

This is not any one person's fault, and i don't blame anyone for putting mags or a carb on their airplane. But as an industry we have let ourselves down. We've made tremendous strides in avionics and aerodynamics, but on the powerplant side the best we've been able to do are a few electronic ignitions and a couple experimental only EFI's.

Regardless of what the facts are on our environmental impact, or how you may feel personally, this bus is rolling. We can get on board and have a chance of helping steering it around some potholes....or get run over.
 
It's pretty clear this is a political stunt, which is short sighted and unfortunate. However...

We are still running essentially the same fuel, same induction systems (carbs and mechanical fuel injection), and same magnetos that we were at the end of World War 2! I'm sorry guys, but we have to do better. You can buy lawn mowers with electronic fuel injection.

This is not any one person's fault, and i don't blame anyone for putting mags or a carb on their airplane. But as an industry we have let ourselves down. We've made tremendous strides in avionics and aerodynamics, but on the powerplant side the best we've been able to do are a few electronic ignitions and a couple experimental only EFI's.

Regardless of what the facts are on our environmental impact, or how you may feel personally, this bus is rolling. We can get on board and have a chance of helping steering it around some potholes....or get run over.

Hard to argue with the concepts, but using emissions as a forcing factor has been long in the making from the clean air act. All of my decades of engineering career were colored by the emissions reg progression. They were pretty orderly and funding was provided to develop best available technology (BAT). I worked many years meeting with EPA and CARB officials, they were tough smart and fair. Later, some regulations were finalized with a club. Shutting down assembly lines for weeks for surprise emissions audits - corporations were grabbed by the wallet.

This lead rule has been in the making for aircraft since 1971. Typically there are incentives to pull it forward, and all parties would see the benefits, but the club came to be used more frequently ( since around 2000) as technology advancements became asymptotic. If the Feds really had this as a priority it would have been incentivizing and developing appropriate technology for the last 5 decades, but alas, even they have larger cost/benefit ratios than this. A flea on the tail of the dog.

As stated this is a local thing, and having municipalities simply not offering a fuel as opposed to developing & influencing methodical, fact based change is chaotic and a unpleasant trend for an organized society. I would hope that there is a better plan. If the county can not see the benefits large enough to offer monetary incentives for a socially acceptable change they are poor planners and may not withstand the push back efforts from local and national groups.

Pointed out: many are using alternatives now, garage engineers, and some pretty good. If 100LL and the 100XX alternative were at the pumps for a significantly lower price, then people would vote with their wallet for the new fuels and give them a try, I would. The transition could be painless and yield a lot of benefits. I certainly hope they modify the adversarial position and smooth the way. People don't like to be forced to do anything.

Besides, 100LL is not illegal, and just not offered, so an FBO could simply add an independent, private pump station with a club membership. Right? We certainly don't want this to end up with the demise of a family of 5 in a turbocharged twin from using an unproven (possibly illegal) fuel picked up on a cross country. The County shouldn't either.
 
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Here's what really baffles me. This 100LL ban is supposedly for environmental reasons. The GA little piston pounders. 4-cyl Lycoming engines burn very little avgas. Most of the consumption is from biger twins such as Piper Navajos at 40gal/hr (4.0 nmpg). So, now we ban 100LL, and the Navajo pilot, disgruntled, goes off and buys a King Air 90 that burns, depending on engine option, 75-90 gal/hr. (2.4 nmpg). Fuel is cheaper, and despite initial higher engine cost, a PT-6 runs so much longer TBO, that it's actually about the same cost per flight hour. Those TIO-540 engines aren't cheap either.

Yeah, I get it, lead is bad, but we just doubled the carbon emissions too.

Baron at 30gph (6 nmpg) to TBM900 at 60gph (5.5 nmpg). Okay, not as bad, but still an increase in carbon emissions.

The small turbine developments we hear about that are relevant to 180-250hp users still burn 30-40% more Jet A than they would have 100LL.

I'm hoping the environmentalists understand that they're fighting the wrong battle.
 
I'm hoping the environmentalists understand that they're fighting the wrong battle.[/QUOTE]

They want to ground us!
 
They want to ground us!

Why would "they" want to do that? As near as I can tell, they just want us to stop contaminating their air with lead. I can see the politics of the situation and some of the associated hysteria, but in the end, it doesn't seem like halting lead contamination to the extent that we can is unreasonable.
 
It isn't really the environmentalists, it's the real estate developers. They see a flat piece of land, maybe a mile or two long by at least several hundred yards wide, with good road access, power, water, and sewer already installed. In places like Santa Monica, it is right next to houses where each small lot is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars just for the land value.

So they start working (donating money) on the city council / mayor / etc and they get the neighbors all worked up about lead, noise, etc. and then get the environmentalists on their side with similar concerns. The common refrain you will see in every pursuit is "a facility that benefits 100-200 rich hobbyists". Somehow this applies to airports that also serve the public good during disasters and which has huge economic value, but not to golf courses, which just benefit rich hobbyists in ugly pants.

We are starting to see it here in Boulder, CO, too. Anywhere the land is valuable, the developers want to kill the airport and build on it. Remember Meigs Field?
 
I'm hoping the environmentalists understand that they're fighting the wrong battle.

What is going on in California is not coming from environmentalists. It is simply the latest path the local politicians are following to get rid of the GA airports in there area. This is just good old fashioned greed. With housing development, that airport land can be converted into something that will net a HUGE increase in taxes. Nothing new here, just a new tactic that rings a bit louder, as no one will accept harming children; Not saying that children are ACTUALLY being harmed by 100LL emissions. Pretty sure the Benzine from Jet A is just as bad. That is what the folks here in Chicago were chasing when fighting with OHare 20 years ago. It is amusing, Folks want to be able to hop on a plane and go somewhere and in th next breath, they want the airport shut down because they don't like the noise.

Generally the environmental guys are smart enough not to bother with 100LL. Bigger fish to fry out there for them.

Larry
 
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Remember Meigs Field?

Sadly, that was different. After bulldozing it, they made it a park; It was not developed into anything that helped developers or increased tax revenue. It was not greed, it was just Daley's plan for water front beautification; He didn't like the airport there and wanted it gone for a LONG time. It was the 9/11 scare that give him the rationale to push off the fed's.. It helped show exactly how untouchable he was. Chicago politics are quite a bit different than most areas. They pretty much do whatever they want and the state and feds can't really stop them. Just too many votes involved that are tightly controlled by Chicago politics. It's slowly changing, as the more recent regimes are not as sophisticated and losing some of their grip.

They dozed it at 3 in the morning and the FAA completely freaked out. Within a week, it wasn't even discussed and the FAA fully backed off. He had that much sway in Washington.

Larry
 
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When your brother is in the cabinet, these things happen.



Back to the topic at hand, I am completely confused about lead, however.

I'm building an RV-10, with a new IO-540-D bolted on. First flight expected around 3/15/22, based on the final parts getting shipped out and attached.

I've spoken to Lycoming via email about lead-free gas and I've been told that I should only use 100LL. That's the full list.

Then I looked at that Lycoming spreadsheet attached to Mike Busch's Savvy email and the IO-540-D can run 94UL. Not all -540s can, but the -D can.

So, if pressed in a situation where there is no 100LL available, do I go with the advice from Lycoming or the guidance from Lycoming?
 
So, if pressed in a situation where there is no 100LL available, do I go with the advice from Lycoming or the guidance from Lycoming?

Answer - whichever one won't violate your warranty. And good luck getting a clarification from Lycoming on THAT question.

A more serious answer would require some research on your part - specifically John Deakin's red box and detonation margin. It's quite possible you could fuel up with an "inferior" fuel, and assuming you have enough runway to do it, perform a reduced power takeoff with say, 22" map and full rich, close to cruise conditions, to keep you further outside the red box.
 
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Any community that complains about 100LL at airports, should be looked into for lead water pipes still in use, that were installed up to at least the early 1900's.
 
Any community that complains about 100LL at airports, should be looked into for lead water pipes still in use, that were installed up to at least the early 1900's.

Lead based solder (used in all copper water pipes) wasn't regulated out until the 90's or 00's on water supply piping. Even the bronze fittings and faucet parts had lead. Plenty of bad stuff out there to mess us all up. That's why this maneuvering is so comedic.
 
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When your brother is in the cabinet, these things happen.



Back to the topic at hand, I am completely confused about lead, however.

I'm building an RV-10, with a new IO-540-D bolted on. First flight expected around 3/15/22, based on the final parts getting shipped out and attached.

I've spoken to Lycoming via email about lead-free gas and I've been told that I should only use 100LL. That's the full list.

Then I looked at that Lycoming spreadsheet attached to Mike Busch's Savvy email and the IO-540-D can run 94UL. Not all -540s can, but the -D can.

So, if pressed in a situation where there is no 100LL available, do I go with the advice from Lycoming or the guidance from Lycoming?

It's a published document, as opposed to some guy on the internet via email. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to run unleaded in an IO 540-D on that basis but I'd want to be sure that all the components were compatible and the the timing was correct. I wouldn't just fuel it up and take off, and it would have to meet ALL of Lycoming's requirements including the "airworthiness" concerns that they address in their other 3-part document. It would take somebody a lot smarter than me to reassure me that that engine is ready to go on anything other than 100LL.

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It's a published document, as opposed to some guy on the internet via email. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to run unleaded in an IO 540-D on that basis but I'd want to be sure that all the components were compatible and the the timing was correct. I wouldn't just fuel it up and take off, and it would have to meet ALL of Lycoming's requirements including the "airworthiness" concerns that they address in their other 3-part document. It would take somebody a lot smarter than me to reassure me that that engine is ready to go on anything other than 100LL.

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As you point out, Lycoming approves 94UL for the IO-540-D engine, and Swift has STCs for certified aircraft using that engine to burn their 94UL. As been noted everywhere, this 94UL is a far superior fuel for our applications as compared to 100LL.

BUT - for you guys dropping in 9-1 pistons and such all bets are off. It will be 100LL or 100UL only for you.

Carl
 
For all the guys running Aero Sport motors, here's the response I received when I asked about this the other day. San Martin was one of first flight options, so it directly affects me in the coming months. I'm running an IO-375 with 9:1 pistons (195 hp).

Response from Aero Sport (and associated reps):
"I searched through the IO-360 engines to try and find a 9:1 compression ratio engine and the closest I get is 8.7:1 for the engines on Service Instruction 1070AB I linked in the previous email.

The IO-360-A, C, D, F, (Wide deck, 8.7:1 pistons, LW-10207) and J (10:1) engines aren’t compatible with the UL94 fuel.

The IO-360-B, E, L, M, N, and P engines ( 8.5:1) are listed on another line of the SI and are compatible with the UL94 fuel as well as only 2 certain specifications of Automotive Fuels.

Seems the difference between those groupings is the compression ratio."

"If so[implying <=8.5:1 CR] then he shouldn’t have an issue with the UL94 fuel, but that SI states that the oil additive LW-16702 or an oil with the additive in it like an oil like Aeroshell W100, W80 or 15W-50 should be used with unleaded fuels."

In summary, it looks like Aerosport is implying that 8.5:1 CR is the cutoff line, and if you have that AND run the correct oil additive, you're ok for 94UL. They did end the email that said choice is always left up to the pilot to determine what is safe, so take this post as you will.
 
that SI states that the oil additive LW-16702 or an oil with the additive in it like an oil like Aeroshell W100, W80 or 15W-50 should be used with unleaded fuels."

Aeroshell W100 PLUS. W100 does not have the additive.

Dunno about the others, don't use 'em.
 
9:1

As someone with 9:1 compression (320-h2ad)
I'm directly affected by the 8.5:1 apparent cut-off.

Despite being in SoCal, I'll take bets that I'll still be able to obtain 100LL within 25 miles of my field for the next two years.

But, better prepared than just sit and stew! So I've been looking at options... I think ADI could be an answer in my case. See https://www.avweb.com/features/the-return-of-anti-detonation-water-injection-adi/ Since we have people here (like SDS) who've rolled their own fuel injection systems - putting together an ADI controller shouldn't be beyond us.

I don't promote ADI as a panacea. If you've got an angle valve engine or 10:1, etc. I'm not hopeful that just ADI would make up the difference. Check the testing of the IO-550-D in https://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar99-70.pdf
 
Lots of folks here waiting for approval from Lycoming to run Mogas or UL avgas. That's your prerogative but there are at least 2 guys here who've run tons of mogas through their Lycomings for a couple years now, working just fine.

Watch the ignition timing.

That is all.

I see lots of guys increasing compression ratio, porting heads etc. Not approved on certified versions of the Lycoming but are ok with those mods on Experimental engines...
 
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I won’t run pump gas. I would run UL avgas, but only if and when it’s on the fuel truck that comes to my hangar. When that happens, I’m in.
 
Focusing on 8.5 CR as a "cutoff" is conservative, but incomplete. To run a fuel other than 100LL, CR is just one factor.

Temperature control is critical ..notably cylinder head, intake air (detonation), and the lines to the engine-driven pump (vapor lock). Ignition timing is huge. Mixture is a big deal.

Factory approvals are based on detonation testing per standard, meaning cylinder at max CHT, oil at max, intake air at 100F, then sweeping mixture into the pro-detonation zone on the rich side of peak EGT. Keep it rich, cool, and retarded, and we can probably run whale oil.

I don't typically coat tail others, but I will share this...Monty Barrett and I had this discussion more than a decade ago, while my own 390 was spinning on the dyno. I've built in temperature control, and switchable ignition timing. If/when the day comes, I'll run 8.9 CR on reduced octane.
 
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Yup, Dan hits all the points here to be able to run lower octane safely. Not rocket science and is already being done by numerous people here on VAF and elsewhere.
 
What is considered high MAP

What is considered high MAP in the context of this conversation? Above 25? The magical 75% power line? I’m running SDS CPi2 so this is relatively easy, but how much is enough to pull back timing? While I suspect the answer is “it depends”, let’s assume that most of the population has enough control over temperature and cooling and mixture.

I’m in the 8.9:1 H2 box as well, so I might not be typical, but I’m a pretty talented extrapolator. :)
 
Yes, depends on all the factors Dan mentioned. Splitting hairs trying to advance right up to the point of detonation isn't recommended and has been stated before isn't worth the few hp gained usually.

The ultimate in efficiency would require individual knock sensors for each cylinder like the IE2 system uses. The Lycoming FADEC engines use different heads and block though designed for electronic control and sensors.

We consider high power to be anything over 25 squared ROP (about 70% power) but that is arbitrary. AFR, IAT and CHT effects are considerable.
 
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