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Paint schemes and respect

pat

Well Known Member
So as our experimental numbers grow I'm witnessing a trend in military schemes (not just rv's) that include axis forces. Now I'm sure the intentions are pure with intent to be unique but for many still living the wounds of war are fresh and some are so deep it will take generations to heal. I am interested to hear from active military, VFW and civilians alike on this subject. I understand the preservation of history but I'm not sure that's what it is on a non historical aircraft. Thanks in advance for responding.
 
Yeah, putting a swastika on your plane might be going a bit too far. :eek:
Personally, I like the variety of paint schemes I have seen on RV's and especially the ones that have a personal tribute involved. I'm a post-WWII late baby boomer, so my perspective may be different that yours. My paint scheme will NOT be militaryesque.
 
We put a former WWII paint design on a friend's -4, to commemorate the US forces and pilots in Mondolfo, Italy, as a tribute to those wonderful guys who paved our road to freedom. A recent post here showed a beautiful -8 dressed to commemorate our guys.

No disrespect intended, but rather thanks and admiration.

Best,
 
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Suppose a guy's grandpa flew for the other side. Can he not commemorate that service? I see nothing wrong with it; those guys were just as brave and sacrificed just as much as ours.
 
Suppose a guy's grandpa flew for the other side. Can he not commemorate that service? I see nothing wrong with it; those guys were just as brave and sacrificed just as much as ours.

Gotta agree with you on that, sometimes I am amazed at what some folks will find to complain about. The PC mindset is destroying a lot of history.
 
Gotta agree with you on that, sometimes I am amazed at what some folks will find to complain about. The PC mindset is destroying a lot of history.

....Very well said! I couldn't agree with you more. Real life seems to offend some people or they at least want you to think it so.
 
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....Over the years I have owned many war-birds with military paint. I have also had several non war-bird planes with military type paint. I have always without exception gotten my asking price when offering them for sale. In most cases the paint was a plus in the sale. It seems to me the only ones the nit pickers want to complain about are the planes with German markings. The world owes the Germans credit for most all the aviation advancements we enjoy today. They were light-years ahead in virtually every engineering endeavor they took on. The majority of this German leap foreword took place during WW2. After the war we scooped up as much of it as possible, including their top engineers. They came here as heroes and were it not for them, the man on the moon would have been set back a couple of decades. Short of painting filthy, vulgar words or some sexually inappropriate for children graphics on your airplane you would be hard pressed to offend me. This was my first airplane, sure wish I had it back. Allan....:D
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4203c01bc75246d18db2fcaf9f8486eb_zps71a69568.jpg
 
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Based on some nose art I have seen, inappropriate was par for the course. They never expected the folks back home to see much of it. That said, there is plenty of room in the sky for all types, and a little inappropriate is a good thing..
 
I personally feel it is a respect thing.

I would never own, or fly a civilian built plane that had a military scheme without a direct personal blessing of a veteran who actually flew that scheme. This is just my personal code of conduct. I would not even paint a plane in honor of my Uncle since he is no longer with us and cannot tell me his opinion on the subject. I believe he would probably chuckle and say no, that is too self important. He never talked much about the war except in generalities. The only way he might agree is because he would feel that would be what I wanted.

I respect others right to have it on their plane though, it is their plane of course. I also respect the opinions on preserving history (is it really history if it is not a historic plane though?) or someone's desire to honor someone in general (what if that person does not want the honor?) but I do not agree with it and am always careful not to voice my opinion around them at a fly in. It is just my opinion, it is their pride and joy.

Mark
Ex enlisted Army
Great Uncle WWII
Distant relative WWII bombardier and author on the subject
Childhood neighbor flew the Hump in P-40's
 
Broken Marine here, not offended by any paint job I've ever seen. The politically correct mindset does tend to rub me wrong though. I seem to have a talent for rubbing them worse....it's a hobby.

Paint your plane any way you choose. Variety is the spice of life.
 
I guess I would add, I would not be offended, just would not want to offend those that I respect and appreciate.

I also just don't get it. Unless it is an exact replica (as much as can be on a different shape) I don't think it is attractive.

Mark
 
Interestingly the UK is so PC that original WWII planes in museums have had the swastikas removed from their fins.

Makes the planes look sort of wierd, like something's missing....:rolleyes:

However, there is a G-46 in private hands flying with a Facist paint sheme doing public airshows. It is also interesting to note that the Axis paint scheme chosen was that sported by the WWII Italian fighters, not correct for an advanced trainer built after WWII with heavy funding from the Allied countries.

http://personalplaneservices.com/galleries/fiat.html
I am pretty sure it goes unnoticed. I think a Swastika would garner a bit more public awareness.

It's your airplane. Do what you will with it. I have not figured out where to put the middle finger on my plane so I can flash it to my buddies still flying spam cans though. For now, I just go WOT and they get the idea really quick.
 
However, there is a G-46 in private hands flying with a Facist paint sheme doing public airshows. It is also interesting to note that the Axis paint scheme chosen was that sported by the WWII Italian fighters, not correct for an advanced trainer built after WWII with heavy funding from the Allied countries.

http://personalplaneservices.com/galleries/fiat.html
I am pretty sure it goes unnoticed. I think a Swastika would garner a bit more public awareness.

It's your airplane. Do what you will with it. I have not figured out where to put the middle finger on my plane so I can flash it to my buddies still flying spam cans though. For now, I just go WOT and they get the idea really quick.

After checking, my comment is only partly true. My pictures from the RAF museum this last Jan. do show swastikas.

I think it might be more of a EU function as IIRC swastikas are banned in Germany...

German museum pic -

2196309010032741708S425x425Q85.jpg
 
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True representation.

With no disrespect intended, in my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with replicating a paint scheme of any war era aircraft, tank, vehicle, etc to the accuracy of what that machine had in it's day.

There are many out there that are so wrapped up in political correctness or bound to do whatever they can not to offend, that it is becoming increasingly difficult to swallow and tolerate.

I enjoy going to airshows like Thunder over Michigan, watching the re-enactments and seeing the historical markings of the aircraft and vehicles involved. I'm quite certain those markings are placed there to acurately depict that livery of the era and not meant to offend anyone.

I was recently involved with a BF-109 at one of our airshows..a beautiful aircraft with iron crosses, swatiskas and all. Not one complaint was heard from anyone in the crowd, and I know numerous faiths were there. In fact, one admirer advised that the swastika was actually a religous symbol in some cultures, representing good luck and such prior to it's sinister use during WWII.

If there are those that are offended, so be it, but the historical significance of such markings and livery should never be removed or diminished.

So, I welcome and encourage such schemes and livery!

Cheers,



Don
 
Stand at ease

You may be assured it would take a h___ of a lot more than an aircraft paint scheme to upset any genuine combat veteran.
OK, maybe a ?Go Navy; Beat Army? scheme may cause a dust up or two but only temporarily.
Don Stiver
LTC US Army Ret
RVN 1969-1970
1st Sqdn 9th Cavalry 1st Cavalry Division
 
You may be assured it would take a h___ of a lot more than an aircraft paint scheme to upset any genuine combat veteran.
OK, maybe a ?Go Navy; Beat Army? scheme may cause a dust up or two but only temporarily.
Don Stiver
LTC US Army Ret
RVN 1969-1970
1st Sqdn 9th Cavalry 1st Cavalry Division

Yeah, I'm not a veteran, and certainly not a combat veteran, but if the plane looks good, it looks good, and an RV-8 with invasion stripes looks pretty darn good.....

I work with lots of USAF vets, and I have yet to see any of them get offended....at all.

Now, off to plan my radial powered RV-8.....

P47-bankleft-02.jpg


or

chancevoughtf4u_1.jpg


?
 
So as our experimental numbers grow I'm witnessing a trend in military schemes (not just rv's) that include axis forces. Now I'm sure the intentions are pure with intent to be unique but for many still living the wounds of war are fresh and some are so deep it will take generations to heal. I am interested to hear from active military, VFW and civilians alike on this subject. I understand the preservation of history but I'm not sure that's what it is on a non historical aircraft. Thanks in advance for responding.

It's your airplane, do what you want and who cares what others think?

When I was graduating Officer Candidate School, we had class t-shirts made up that we're awesome, with a big painting on the back that was a copy of a painting from the nose of a B-17, we found it in a museum. All of our Marine Drill instructors ordered dozens of them because they loved 'em. We were never allowed to wear them though because the commanding officer thought they were too scandalous, and someone had complained.

Same thing happened in an Air Wing I was in. One of the squadrons painted copies of nose art on their planes as a throw back to their history and were told to get rid of it for the same reasons (and they looked awesome).

If anything ruins a good throw back paint scheme/homage, it's the PC crowd. History happened, if you want to honor it, whatever the scheme is... It's your airplane. Go nuts! If you put an Iranian paint scheme on your plane just be prepared for guys chasing you around pretending to shoot you down!


Based on some nose art I have seen, inappropriate was par for the course. They never expected the folks back home to see much of it. That said, there is plenty of room in the sky for all types, and a little inappropriate is a good thing..

I like the way you think! :D
 
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When I painted my own RV in the colors of the 357th FG I did it SPECIFICALLY to honor the 90 plus men who died flying under those colors and because when I fly to any airport, people will ask what it means, this paint? Therefore giving me a chance to highlight and explain the sacrifices made by not only those men, but all those who fought for this nation. I will never make apologies for this nor give a second thought to anyone who has a problem with it. Either do it, or do not do it; Choice. It’s what makes us a free people. Those of us lucky enough to have known WWII vets, and especially pilots, have a perspective slowly dying away in the modern world. Many of those men never told their families of their trials. They did however, occasionally, tell friends, younger guys at the local airports. In moments of reflection as if they wanted to get something off their chests before they passed away. Those lucky few, we not only will remember those tales, but we want to pass them on so they will at least, on a small scale, not be forgotten.

So as far as painting a non-warbird like a fighter…wouldn’t I give a rat’s patootie if someone finds it offensive. Too bad for them. Get a life and change the channel as it were. I’ve known too many vets whose stories have gone untold, to care that someone might misunderstand. This even goes for the “bad guys” who fought for their own nations. Pilots, the world over, fought hard, died hard, and most were forgotten. Other than the few really famous ones, most of their names were totally forgotten, days, if not weeks after their death. They are not even a foot note in the history they died to create. We all know the Chuck Yeager’s and the Bud Anderson’s. But few of us know the names of 1000s of men who flew once, maybe twice, and never came home. They are lost to history.

Too many people tie all this stuff up in the politics behind it. Then men in the field, they were not fighting for Roosevelt or Hitler or Eisenhower. They were fighting for their buddy in the bunk next store, their friends, their families and their homes. And their sacrifices should be views in that light.
 
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When I painted my own RV in the colors of the 357th FG I did it SPECIFICALLY to honor the 90 plus men who died flying under those colors and because when I fly to any airport, people will ask what it means, this paint? Therefore giving me a chance to highlight and explain the sacrifices made by not only those men, but all those who fought for this nation. I will never make apologies for this nor give a second thought to anyone who has a problem with it. Either do it, or do not do it; Choice. It?s what makes us a free people. Those of us lucky enough to have known WWII vets, and especially pilots, have a perspective slowing dying away in the modern world. Many of those men never told their families of their trials. They did however, occasionally, tell friends, younger guys at the local airports. In moments of reflection as if they wanted to get something off their chests before they passed away. Those lucky few, we not only will remember those tales, but we want to pass them on so they will at least, on a small scale, not be forgotten.

So as far as painted a non-warbird like a fighter?wouldn?t I give a rat?s patootie if someone finds it offensive. Too bad for them. Get a life and change the channel as it were. I?ve known too many vets whose stories have gone untold to care that someone might misunderstand. This even goes for the ?bad guys? who fought for their own nations. Pilots, the world over, fought hard, died hard, and most were forgotten. Other than the few really famous ones, most of their names were totally forgotten, days, if not weeks after their death. They are not even a foot note in the history they died to create. We all know the Chuck Yeager?s and the Bud Anderson?s. But few of us know the names of 1000s of men who flew once, maybe twice, and never came home. They are lost to history.

Too many people tie all this stuff up in the politics behind it. Then men in the field, they were not fighting for Roosevelt or Hitler or Eisenhower. They were fighting for their buddy in the bunk next store, their friends, their families and their homes. And their sacrifices should be views in that light.

Wow, very well said!

-Dan
 
As I am sure this second post will be deleted, I'll add this seperately. HA! Seems to me that certain forces have nearly won the battle if we are having these kinds of conversations over political correctness or appropriateness of paint schemes, and that is all this seems to be; a case of PC worry. I personally do not care WHO I offend, particularly if they take offense when NONE was given -- Which seems to be a malaise in todays world. But I respect anyone painting an aircraft to honor those who have fought and died for this nation. I even feel this way about those painting their aircraft to honor the men defending their homes from us. The guy shooting down B-17s was just as much a VICTIM of the EVIL that took over his nation as was the men dropping the bombs from our bombers on his cities. And his efforts to save his cities and families, when looked it in that perspective, can be honored as well, particularly when you consider his odds for survival. It took a certainl level of testicular fortitude to climb into an aircraft, knowing that your chance of survival was slim at best. As a US citizen, I would have worked hard to shoot his krout backside down, and I might have punched him in the nose had I met him a year after the war...But having met some of those guys before they passed away, and getting some perspective on their situation, well, there were brave men on both sides.

So I do not worry about the opinion of others. I worry about the loss of history and the rewriting of history to fit various political views. Part of being a rugged individualist and an American is keeping your own counsel and realizing that too many worry about what others think and act accordingly. My post will probably get yanked here, as it has in the past, because too many worry about how others perceive things. Still, since this post also applies to my own aircraft, I am trying to enlighten the original poster as to the WHY behind my own choice, and possibly the choices of many others who have done the same. Millions of faceless people died as the result of evil. Out of that experience, men were tried and tested in ways we cannot imagine. Anything that keeps the memory alive, even the painful memories, is good. We may never see another Hitler in this world, but we might...and I'd like to know people can instantly recognize him when they see him, and stop him.

Disrespecting vets? You've got to be kidding me. Anything that tells their story and helps others understand what they endured can only be good.
 
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When I had Smokey painted in VF-84 livery, I gave a nod to the original "Jolly Rogers" of WWII by putting the names of the squadron's CO and XO on the canopy skirt. Just my way of blending the squadron's history from the Corsairs of WWII and the F-14s of later years.

Last year at Oshkosh, a fellow came up and handed me his business card. All he said was, "Does the name ring a bell?"

"No," I replied, seeing that the first name on his card was David, "but replacing 'David' with 'Jack' it does. He was a VF-17 pilot."

He smiled and said, "Yeah, he was my uncle!" David went on to share with me how he used to sit and listen to his uncle tell stories about flying Corsairs in the Pacific in WWII. It was rewarding for me to know that my little tribute effort was appreciated by a family member of an original Jolly Roger.

Other than that, I just like the paint scheme. If I were bound by some arbitrary rule that said that I needed the permission of someone in order to paint my plane a certain way ... well ... :(
 
I have decided in the last year or so to paint my RV-7 in Marine VMA-AW-242 colors from the time period of January 1969 when they flew A-6A's. The Intruder isn't the prettiest aircraft, but when touring the USS Midway in San Diego a couple years ago and looking at the A-6 on its deck, I thought the side by side seating and other aspects were similar to a -7. If you squint a little bit and use your imagination you can see a resemblance. Not like a P-51 and an RV-8, but close enough.

Having grown up in Wisconsin and being born in 68' I thought it would make it more personal if I could honor someone from my home state that was lost around the time I was born. I haven't seen an RV painted in the Vietnam era schemes and the thought of honoring the guys from that period seemed like the right thing to do. They didn't get the same treatment as the veterans of previous wars as we all know. I didn't have to look for long on the internet when I found the story of Capt Edwin James "Jimmy" Fickler. He went missing during a night mission on 1/17/69 and was never found or heard from again along with his B/N Richard Kuhlman. He grew up in Kewaskum, WI which is not too far south of Oshkosh. If the Notam allows, I plan to fly over his home town on my way to Oshkosh for the first time, which hopefully isn't too many years from now.

I was very concerned with doing something so personal as painting my airplane in this way and was lucky enough to have been able to track down his sister. She liked the idea of honoring her brother and told me several stories about his childhood and how he loved to fly for the Marines. I have also talked with another close friend of his that was in flight school with him in Pensacola. Another contact I made was with Tom Idema who was a B/N in the 242 and lived in the same hooch as Capt Fickler for a period of time in Da Nang. Mr Idema wrote a book entitled "The View From Here" which detailed his experience flying in Vietnam.

Both of these military friends of his thought my way of honoring their friend and all the others really, was a great idea. These personal connections have convinced me that painting my RV-7 in their honor is not only acceptable, but something I now need to do. Some may think I'm a poser or wannabe, but I know the real reason and that is good enough for me. I look forward to telling this story over and over so that the current and future generations don't forget their sacrifice. One last thing, it will look really cool too!
 
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Respect

While I understand and respect the feelings of others, I choose to be totally NOT politically correct. Others have expressed their thoughts much more elequently than I could.

I am retired from the United States Air Force. I was cannon fodder for 20+years and am as patriotic as they come.

I had my plane in P-51 livery for six years but when I moved it to Florida, I had to paint it as the corrosion was gaining on me. I'm getting too old and too lazy to keep it polished.

This is what I ended up with. I make no apologies and have no regrets. As most of you know, it is Winter Camo as painted on MIG-3s near Moscow in 1942. At that time the Axis forces were near Moscow and the Russian People were fighting for their very existance. The scheme is to honor those people at that time. I DO NOT condone anything Stalin did before during or after the War; nor the regime since.

A poster on another thread was wondering about selling prices with such paint schemes. I didn't even give any thought to that. It doesn't make a bit of difference to me one way or another. I didn't build it to sell and I'm not in the trading business. I built it for me:)


8013529277_98ebc39350_c.jpg
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IMG_0099 by mannanj, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
I'm very UN-PC

I agree whole-heartedly with Wera710.

Well said sir! Beat me to it. Not that I would have said it so well.

History must be remembered so the mistakes aren't repeated.

My Grandad was WW1 western front and Dardanelles. My dad nearly got into Korea, but before his battalion was sent over it all finished.

When I finish my 8, I plan to modify the front windscreen to be more like a P-51, and being a brit, I'll paint it with a scheme used by the RAF.

Re nose art in WW2, a lot of the 8th AAF B-17's and 24's had to tone down their nose art because it was thought it would offend the 'locals'.

The swastika and anything that could be linked to Nazism is illegal in Germany.

I believe there are several restored WW2 fighters and replicas in Germany but none have the swastika.
 
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As one who was born shortly after WWII, and the fact that my father purchased a used WWII airplane after the war..........which took us to the airport often....

Yes, I like invasion stripes. I also prefer the stripes over curvy paint squiggles that I see on so many RV's. PC correct..............bla

2z9jdpw.jpg


L.Adamson
 
I recently bought a Thorp T-18 from a 93 yr old German American. His uncle was a genuine German WWII pilot, who was also involved in the T-18.
It had a few subtle paint touches of WWI.
Ron Wanttaja, the aviation writer was a partner with Ed on the old Story Special (the flybaby was designed off the Story) Ron recounted a log entry in the Story club..."Flamed a SPAD over the Rhine!"
We have our inner Walter Mitty, I let it go at that.
 
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