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Tip: EAA video tip on nutplates

jjconstant

jjconstant

Well Known Member
I generally love the hints for homebuilders videos from the EAA but this one has me wondering:

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1145054573001

In it the presenter advocates running a tap through nutplates to make installing/uninstalling the screw easier. I thought this would fail the locking function of the nutplate. Is this a never-ending debate sort of thing or is the tip questionable?

Jeremy Constant
RV7A 120hrs.
 
The key is that if the application requires the locking function of the nutplate, DON'T DO THIS!! Some places are non-essential, and you don't' care if the screw loosens, but many places depend on the locking function, so choose wisely....

Paul
 
I might add that you can adjust how tight the locking function is by running the tap only part way thru the nut plate. Some of the nut plates in my kit were over crimped and galled the threads of the screws. Running the tap part way in is the easiest way to fix this.
 
ColoCardinal said:
I might add that you can adjust how tight the locking function is by running the tap only part way thru the nut plate. Some of the nut plates in my kit were over crimped and galled the threads of the screws. Running the tap part way in is the easiest way to fix this.
Click to expand...

Galling screws can be the result of using a low strength steel screw.

"Season" the nutplate with a high strength screw and some lube (Boelube works well) and you should have few problems.

Low strength steel screws - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/an526.php and http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/ms35206.php

A high strength steel screw - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/an525.php

Note the doubling of the basic steel strength.

Once a screw has fully penetrated the nutplate for the first time any further screws used should go in relatively easily.

Our usual K-1000 platenuts have this finish on them -

K1000-(*) Cadmium plate per AMS-QQ-P-416, Type II, Class 2, plus Kaylube molybdenum disulfide dry film lubricant per AS5272.

Running a tap through will completely destroy any surface corrosion protection inside the threaded area....:eek:
 
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Ironflight said:
The key is that if the application requires the locking function of the nutplate, DON'T DO THIS!! Some places are non-essential, and you don't' care if the screw loosens, but many places depend on the locking function, so choose wisely....

Paul
Click to expand...
The practice of running a tap through any nutplate was absolutely verboten in the military aircraft production environment I came from. A stiff nutplate element was to be dealt with using a boelube treated scrap screw. For our purposes however, I completely agree with what Paul said.
 
I put just a bit of door ease on all of the actual screws that I'm going to use. This makes installation easy which in the long run saves on stripped screw heads. This is a must if you are using stainless steel screws.
 
I pre burnish ("season" as Gil says) the nutplates in batches. I have some rubber soft jaws for the vise with a slit in them. Slide the ear of the nutplate in and tighten. Tube of Boelube and a hardened hex socket capscrew on a hex bit in the electric screwdriver. Spin the screw in and out, on to the next one. For a decent batch size, the time spent per nutplate gets down to seconds. Then when it's time to install one in the plane, just grab it and rivet it down.The tap is just a bad idea, period.
 
This is Chad Jensen first job : )

OK, Chad, now it's time to earn your money at EAA. Find the diplomatic way to tell EAA and Jack Dueck that they should change their video to at least note that this method is not appropriate in many cases. Good luck with that one!
 
Aeronautical engineer, 50 years in aviation, restored a CF-PII, an Aeronca Chief, 11AC, a Luscombe, then "slow built" a Van's RV4 that flew in 1999, according to his bio.

I'm OK with Jack's direction on building airplanes. ;)
 
Bob Collins said:
Aeronautical engineer, 50 years in aviation, restored a CF-PII, an Aeronca Chief, 11AC, a Luscombe, then "slow built" a Van's RV4 that flew in 1999, according to his bio.

I'm OK with Jack's direction on building airplanes. ;)
Click to expand...

Maybe... but the question is a bit more basic than qualifications.

Why choose to do something (use a tap) that is not permitted in a production environment when the alternative (run a hardened screw with lube) is so easy?

In this case it's not like the tap is really needed to solve any problems. Heck, it's even the same number of process steps....:rolleyes:
 
I am with Gil on this issue, the video surprised me a bit in that it seemed to recommend this for all nutplates. Granted, some are difficult, but a few can be dealt with either a bit of lube or last case just a touch with a tap. I do not like the thought of rust building up on threads sometime in the future after protective coatings are removed.
 
az_gila said:
.....it's not like the tap is really needed to solve any problems....
Click to expand...
True enough. A tap is not really needed. Here's an old sheet metal trick we production types have been known to use: You can mimic the effects of a tap by grinding the threaded end of a (scrap) screw into a 3 sided point. Your handiwork doesn't have to be all that pretty, but the ersatz tool works great for seasoning or restoring bunged threads inside a nutplate. ;)
 
Rick6a said:
True enough. A tap is not really needed. Here's an old sheet metal trick we production types have been known to use: You can mimic the effects of a tap by grinding the threaded end of a (scrap) screw into a 3 sided point. Your handiwork doesn't have to be all that pretty, but the ersatz tool works great for seasoning or restoring bunged threads inside a nutplate. ;)
Click to expand...

But it's still a cutting tool, sort of....:)

Has anyone had a new nutplate (let's say #8) that a hardened steel screw will not go into with Boelube?

I've used lots since I fully screwed down my seat pans and baggage floor. I have purchased from both from Vans and Spruce and never found one.

Why use a cutting tool if you don't need it?

If a nutplate is that bad, throw it out - I did find one with no threads once...:D
 
Has anyone had a new nutplate (let's say #8) that a hardened steel screw will not go into with Boelube?
Click to expand...
No. Not with a good fastener & bit. Although.... if its a couple thin and relatively unsupported pieces you may tend to dent the structure. Removal can be worse. Plus, there's those nice ones in tight spaces with slightly pre-boogered heads. I can't help that its ground into me, but everything I put together actually gets more thought about how it will come apart. Good thing too, because I sure seem to spend a lot of time taking things apart. Can't argue that its better to push the hole wider than to cut it, but I gotta say, I like having things like floor boards & stuff come up easy with screws you can reuse. I swear I've drilled, ez-outed, and all around mauled several thousand screws in production planes.
 
I don't know the answer here but lean toward Gill's thinking. I would be interested to hear Tom Brink's opinion from Genuine Aircraft Hardware. I wonder if he is listening ;)

Also keep in mind that the torque values change when adding boelube, oil, grease, antisieze or anything like that. Overtorqueing the screw is very easy when using this method.

-
 
az_gila said:
If a nutplate is that bad, throw it out - I did find one with no threads once...:D
Click to expand...

I found the right bolt for that nutplate :D
842930657_Pb2LC-M-1.jpg
 
clevtool said:
I don't know the answer here but lean toward Gill's thinking. I would be interested to hear Tom Brink's opinion from Genuine Aircraft Hardware. I wonder if he is listening ;)

Also keep in mind that the torque values change when adding boelube, oil, grease, antisieze or anything like that. Overtorqueing the screw is very easy when using this method.

-
Click to expand...

The nutplates are already lubricated, unlike the regular gold colored stop nuts...

K1000-(*) Cadmium plate per AMS-QQ-P-416, Type II, Class 2, plus Kaylube molybdenum disulfide dry film lubricant per AS5272

Just subtract the prevailing torque as normal and it will all work out...
 
Do not Tap Nutplates on anything even slightly Critical!

clevtool said:
I don't know the answer here but lean toward Gill's thinking. I would be interested to hear Tom Brink's opinion from Genuine Aircraft Hardware. I wonder if he is listening ;)

Also keep in mind that the torque values change when adding boelube, oil, grease, antisieze or anything like that. Overtorqueing the screw is very easy when using this method.

-
Click to expand...

I wont argue that it is or is not unsafe or stupid.

There are just so much better, easier and safer methods to loosen the tight nutplate.

a) Get a Cad II plated aircraft screw (rolled threads) of the right thread size and pitch. I would recommend an NAS1351, NAS1352, or an NAS1801- screw.
These are all screws that have rolled threads and are higher strength steel.
They have a positive method of driving unlike many cases when using the phillips drive. Using Cadmium plated screws allows the action to be smoother and much less likely to gall, as the plating also serves as a very good lubricant.

b) You may add Boelube if you like. This is IMO ok since you will not be removing any material, just exersizing the crimped area that you would like to bring down the torque requirement from the high end of the spec to someting you are comfortable with.

c) If you are using the Socket Head Cap Screw (NAS1351 or NAS1352) you will need one of those hex bits that fits into your driving mechanism, hand driven or otherwise. For the NAS1801 (HEX HEAD) screw, for an 8-32 screw you could just use your screwdriver that takes the 1/4" hex bits, and leave the bit out, it will fit great. For other sizes use the appropriate nut driver. Put the right size washer in the fastener to protect the skin as you do not want marks if tools touch the skin.

d) Run the fastener in and out and pay attention that you do not do more than you need to be satisfied that you will be able to put your final assembly screws in easy enough so you and your phillips head screw will not get (stressed out) "Pun":rolleyes: Have fun and fly safe!

Pictures of discussed fasteners:
http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/nas1801_2.pdf

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/nas1351_52.pdf
 
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I have just fed some information back to Van's on this subject.

Making progress on our RV8 QB.

I am surprised at how much needs dis assembling in order to build in the correct order.

So far, it is this.

Rear seat belt attach structure to fit the flap blocks - re working of seat belt structure required to allow blocks to fit.

Forward baggage - all structure removed to facilitate access to footwells

F 864A-1 removed for F 864E-1 access

F 865-1 to allow work on bulkhead caps.

Anyhow, I have to remove a lot of screws and most of them are so jammed tight into nutplates that the screws are trash when they finally come out.

Shame Bonanza didn't take the time to lube before fitting ?
 
Borders on Irresponsible

I probably have more platenuts on my RV-6A than most and I change wingtips and tip tanks several times a year (involving ~200 #8 screws and platenuts) and remove the steps to go from travel to race configuration (another 50 or so) and many more for the annual condition inspection. I never use any lube and I am amazed that the EAA would suggest running a tap in platenut threads to make it easier. As Rick said earlier such standard part modification it was forbiden in military aircraft production without specific drawing authorization and would be cause for termination or worse. I also spent 50 years in aerospace and the first half was in production. One source of difficulty is the use of power tools to run screws in and out - the contacting surfaces heat up and gall. Others are using worn out, poor quality or wrong size screwdrivers.

Bob Axsom
 
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An alternative

How about using a roll tap or thread forming tap. It doesn't have any cutting flutes and doesn't remove any metal. I've been using these taps to fixed galled nut plates on my other airplane. It seem to work just fine on new nut plates and doesn't remove all of the locking feature or the coating. Just softens them up some.

Brian
 
Bdalporto said:
How about using a roll tap or thread forming tap. It doesn't have any cutting flutes and doesn't remove any metal. I've been using these taps to fixed galled nut plates on my other airplane. It seem to work just fine on new nut plates and doesn't remove all of the locking feature or the coating. Just softens them up some.

Brian
Click to expand...

Again, why bother when a hardened screw will work?
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
OK, Chad, now it's time to earn your money at EAA. Find the diplomatic way to tell EAA and Jack Dueck that they should change their video to at least note that this method is not appropriate in many cases. Good luck with that one!
Click to expand...

We've had several emails regarding this video now...oddly enough, all members of VAF...;):D...and we did put a note at the beginning of the video about the fact that this tip will lessen the locking ability of the nutplate so new folks to this type of fastener will be well aware.
 
cjensen said:
We've had several emails regarding this video now...oddly enough, all members of VAF...;):D...and we did put a note at the beginning of the video about the fact that this tip will lessen the locking ability of the nutplate so new folks to this type of fastener will be well aware.
Click to expand...

No offense Chad, but that is a rather wimpy solution to a video that shows a non-approved modification to locking devices...:rolleyes:

I bet a lot of viewers will rank the EAA videos alongside AC43.13 for accuracy.
 
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Agreed, but I don't want to pull down the video either. We are not endorsing the use of a nutplate in a critical area to be tapped, but an alternate use for the fastener that is pointed out in the Van's manual (which is where the idea for the video comes from). The tip makes use of a nutplate to give the same fastener performance as a rivnut for example.
 
cjensen said:
We've had several emails regarding this video now...oddly enough, all members of VAF...;):D...and we did put a note at the beginning of the video about the fact that this tip will lessen the locking ability of the nutplate so new folks to this type of fastener will be well aware.
Click to expand...
I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall in the meeting where you brought that up! :D Good job!
 
cjensen said:
Agreed, but I don't want to pull down the video either. We are not endorsing the use of a nutplate in a critical area to be tapped, but an alternate use for the fastener that is pointed out in the Van's manual (which is where the idea for the video comes from). The tip makes use of a nutplate to give the same fastener performance as a rivnut for example.
Click to expand...

I have to respectfully disagree. By posting this video, I think you are endorsing the practice, disclosure or no disclosure.
Many inexperienced builders will fail to see the difference.

I FIRMLY believe the video should be taken down.
 
cjensen said:
Agreed, but I don't want to pull down the video either. We are not endorsing the use of a nutplate in a critical area to be tapped, but an alternate use for the fastener that is pointed out in the Van's manual (which is where the idea for the video comes from). The tip makes use of a nutplate to give the same fastener performance as a rivnut for example.
Click to expand...

...except for the total removal of any cadmium plating on the inside thread of the nutplate....:rolleyes:

K1000-(*) Cadmium plate per AMS-QQ-P-416, Type II, Class 2, plus Kaylube molybdenum disulfide dry film lubricant per AS5272.
 
Which will be more or less removed over time with repeated use anyway. (Okay, I see you've added the additional lubricant, so you are correct if the lube is used).

The irony here is that the Van's manual clearly points out this tip...we've taken the tip and put it in to video form, and now there is a call to remove the tip from the Van's community. <grin>

It just strikes me as a bit amusing. ;)
 
I'm sorry. I don't find it amusing at all. I'm out here in the field trying to "push" standard aircraft practices and EAA is undermining them.

My last word on the subject.
 
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Aircraft Standards

Ha, ha. Do whatever you want it's just a airplane. I personally witnessed a guy get fired from a transport category heavy overhaul facility for running a tap through a self locking nut plate. What was it securing? A paper core, fiberglass floor panel, hardly a stressed part.
I really don't understand the attitude that thinks it's amusing to disregard basic aircraft standards.
After spending 35+ years working in the part 121 aviation industry I really am surprised that the same standards are not followed in general aviation.
 
Mel said:
I'm sorry. I don't find it amusing at all. I'm out here in the field trying to "push" standard aircraft practices and EAA is undermining them.

My last word on the subject.
Click to expand...

paul mosher said:
I really don't understand the attitude that thinks it's amusing to disregard basic aircraft standards.
Click to expand...


What I find amusing is the call from the Van's community to remove a video tip that was made using the Van's Aircraft manual that specifically points out as an accepted alteration of the nutplate. I mean no disrespect to anyone that doesn't find the hint helpful, and undermining is not the intent here either Mel. We have one TC/DAR in the video saying it's a good tip, and another on the forum here that's saying it isn't.

Perhaps we should put together a call to Van's to have a revision sent out to remove it from their manual. Why isn't that being done? After all these years and 7600 airplanes, the tapping of the nutplate is a bad tip in the manual?

Guys, I'm not here to argue, or make light of the subject. Common sense plays a large part in this, and as a green builder when assembling my RV, I used that common sense to decide when to alter and when not to alter a nutplate. Standard practice is to not alter it. No one is hanging engines or attaching wings with nutplates, and in the case of an inspection panel as pointed to in the video, common sense tells me that this is an okay place to use the tip.
 
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paul mosher said:
After spending 35+ years working in the part 121 aviation industry I really am surprised that the same standards are not followed in general aviation.
Click to expand...

Really? A guy building in his garage is expected to follow 121 standards? Why would we need an experimental category if everything was built to those rules? We would all need burn tested carpets and seats, no automobile conversions, no owner maintenance, etc...

I'm not arguing, I'm sincerely curious about your comment...
 
standards

I'm not suggesting that. What I am saying is that someone who has never worked on, much less built a airplane should at least follow some standard. Ever hear of 43.13-1B - Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices?
I've seen many posts here that suggest JB Weld is acceptable as a repair, that makes it OK, right?
Why shouldn't a RV be built to the proper standards? Because it's experimental?
Now I understand the waiver that Van's requires a kit purchaser to sign.
 
paul mosher said:
I'm not suggesting that. What I am saying is that someone who has never worked on, much less built a airplane should at least follow some standard. Ever hear of 43.13-1B - Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices?
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I worked at an FBO for 12 years selling airplanes...that AC was used regularly in my world.
paul mosher said:
I've seen many posts here that suggest JB Weld is acceptable as a repair, that makes it OK, right?
Click to expand...
Depends on where it's used, I suppose. Common sense applies here as well. Used to repair a cracked engine mount? No way. Plastic fairing? Sure.
paul mosher said:
Why shouldn't a RV be built to the proper standards? Because it's experimental?
Click to expand...
Proper standards absolutely. Using a tip on a nutplate that's in the manual? I don't see why not in the particular area called out.
paul mosher said:
Now I understand the waiver that Van's requires a kit purchaser to sign.
Click to expand...
Hehe...all of them require this...
 
Salesman

Oh.
BTW I'm building my 7 on my lanai. Still adhering to the standards. Location is irrelevant.
 
cjensen said:
Which will be more or less removed over time with repeated use anyway. (Okay, I see you've added the additional lubricant, so you are correct if the lube is used).

The irony here is that the Van's manual clearly points out this tip...we've taken the tip and put it in to video form, and now there is a call to remove the tip from the Van's community. <grin>

It just strikes me as a bit amusing. ;)
Click to expand...

Chad, again I respectfully disagree.

The lube mentioned is in the manufacturing spec. for the K-100 nutplates, they are made that way.

But, more importantly -

Nowhere in the video does it mention Vans instructions, or even a RV aircraft. The speaker talks about "panels" which could be either structural or non-structural. At the end he then says "I do this to all of my nutplates".

Linking it to Vans manual is a cop-out. It is a stand alone video that could very easily be mis-interpreted by a new builder. I think it reflects poorly on the EAA technical advise series of videos.

Like Mel, I won't add any more to this thread, but I think it's really a poor choice to leave it as is....:rolleyes:
 
The issue of "non-structural" can be a bit gray as well. For example, I think Vans has taken the position that the aileron bellcrank inspection covers are structural. Furthermore, I'd hate to see the forward edge of that cover drop down into the airstream at 200 mph. Finally, running a tap through a fastener to deliberately defeat a self locking function is hardly a "tip". Nobody who sees it is going to think "now why didn't I think of that", what they will say is "wow, I didn't know that was ok to do". The video is a bad idea and should be taken down.
 
Ya know what guys, I'm gonna cave on this issue. I thought about it last night, and spent many hours on it yesterday, and if someone isn't bright enough to use some common sense, then I don't want them coming back to me and saying "EAA told me to do it" (let alone the fact that many RV builders do this because it's in the manual...including me...and I'll use the tip again if I find it practical to do so).

So it is being pulled down today. I don't think it's right to do so, but it's not worth spending hours defending.

I am going to re-shoot the hint to be more clear on the use of the tip though.
 
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cjensen said:
Ya know what guys, I'm gonna cave on this issue. I thought about it last night, and spent many hours on it yesterday, and if someone isn't bright enough to use some common sense, then I don't want them coming back to me and saying "EAA told me to do it" (let alone the fact that many RV builders do this because it's in the manual...including me...and I'll use the tip again if I find it practical to do so).

So it is being pulled down today. I don't think it's right to do so, but it's not worth spending hours defending.

I am going to re-shoot the hint to be more clear on the use of the tip though.
Click to expand...
Well Chad, I applaud you for making that decision. I am not an expert on structural integrity so I have no comments on whether we should or should not tap out nut plates. However, I do have some knowledge about human behavior and that is where I give you praise. Many people have called you out on a very public forum on an issue that you disagreed with. You stood behind your decision, good or bad, but in the end you were responsive to the constituents who were voicing there concerns. You listened to them and ultimately made a decision based upon what they were telling you. I can tell you do not agree with their thoughts but you still abided by their wishes. To me that is the responsiveness to the EAA membership the organization needs. Thank you for listening and responding to member concerns.
 
Newest EAA member

Chad, I just joined EAA after reading your post. I have been one of the guys that had not joined because I thought EAA was moving away from the experimental part of aviation. I have been reading this thread and wondered how it was going to turn out. I admit, I watched the video and thought it looked like a good idea. The only nutplates I have worked on yet - on the empannage kit, the locking issue isn't an issue. As I progress on the build, I appreciate you helping to make sure I have all the info.

Thanks,
 
cjensen said:
Ya know what guys, I'm gonna cave on this issue. I thought about it last night, and spent many hours on it yesterday, and if someone isn't bright enough to use some common sense, then I don't want them coming back to me and saying "EAA told me to do it" (let alone the fact that many RV builders do this because it's in the manual...including me...and I'll use the tip again if I find it practical to do so).

So it is being pulled down today. I don't think it's right to do so, but it's not worth spending hours defending.

I am going to re-shoot the hint to be more clear on the use of the tip though.
Click to expand...

Chad,
Maybe when you res-hoot it, you can a add a blurb about using good judgment while building, instead of "blindly" following a set of rules. I'm all for acceptable practices, but I think the nutplate police are a little over the top on this one!.

Armored up and ready for war! :D
 
Review

In aviation good judgment and 'common sense' takes a base knowledge that is hard to get without some formal training. Sometimes it's hard to recognize how a tip can be misused by others so I am glad to see the video pulled for review and possibly altered. Seems like the responsible action given the comments from some well seasoned veterans.

Not knocking Chad, to the contrary, removal and review raises my level of respect for Chads work.
 
Kudos Chad!

cjensen said:
Ya know what guys, I'm gonna cave on this issue....

I am going to re-shoot the hint to be more clear on the use of the tip though.
Click to expand...

...and a tip of the hat! Not easy to do the "right thing" especially when one thinks it's wrong! Speaking for myself; one should never underestimate the "overly litteral" engineer who will follow a procedure that has been "blessed".

Lastly Chad, a HUGE thank-you for agreeing to modify the video so we are not subjected to another never-ending "primer war"!!

To Oshkosh and beyond!

Dave
 
BOE-Lube??

I have not read this entire thread, but have found that the application of BOE-Lube on the screw threads pretty much negates the need or desire to tap the nutplates. For me, that is... in fact after a long hiatus just in the last week I've installed a bunch...

FWIW

.
 
Yup. BoeLube

I put in over 100 a short time ago and Beolube was like a gift from heaven. Every screw, straight in with a little tension but not one problem with any of them.
 
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