What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

What makes an aircraft engine so expensive?

While building my engine at the Superior build school I was chastised for nearly dropping their $800 ring compressor, which was simply a big C-shaped chunk of aluminum with a tapered inner bore. I joked that I was in the wrong business and was gonna go into the aircraft engine ring compressor business. At $800 a piece I'd make a fortune. The guy running the shop said "Good luck, how many do you think you'll sell?"
 
I don't know, but the retail of a 4cyl. aviation engine should be no more than $5k.

Tim
 
Insurance.

I used to sell Cessna Agwagons and agtrucks for a Cessna dealer and the factory rep told us that product liability insurance was 1/3 the cost of a new airplane:eek:

Best,
 
I used to own a machine shop. We made parts in small volume (anywhere from 1-500 depending on what it was) for medical instrument and military markets. When you saw some of the parts you would probably think "Why does that piece of machined aluminum (usually 6061) cost $100 a piece? Well when you account for the time to set up the machine to make them, the material, the cost to get it finished (maybe a three or four step process with clearing, alodining and/or anodizing, primer, paint) and realize that at each step in the process the cost of "setup" to do a small lot of 100 pieces was almost equal to the actual cost to perform the process and that the capital investment in machinery to be able to make the part in the first place it was little wonder the part cost so much. The manufacturing term is low-volume, high-mix in terms of parts count/volume in end product. All with serious documentation at each step (traceability) as well as serious QC at each step. Frankly aircraft engines are such low volume compared to any frame of reference we might have (cars, lawn mowers, washing machines) most people just don't think about exactly what goes into making one. Add in liabiiity, rising overhead costs (health care), and volatile market and they end up costing what they cost....

I always thought if some derivative of auto engine could be developed that could leverage some of the volume production of some key parts that would help but I doubt any major engine manufacturer would want the liability exposure given tiny incremental market GA represents.

Its all about business economics. Nobody is getting rich on GA based on price gouging.
 
Certification overhead

Paper work must be a large part of it. With CNC mills and new processes for metal work the actual cost of the parts must be going down.
Add lawyers, insurance and the ability to track any and all parts down to the 'responsible' party really takes time and money!

I.E. Shroud tube lock plate $1.51 each , Manufacturer's Certification for the part $10.00
 
Last edited:
Product Liability is my vote

I am with the last few posters on this subject. The former machine shop guy above put it very eloquently. Product liability has to be tops in my book. Lycoming design has been around for a very long time and proven. Should a new single engine Cessna 182 be pushing $300K? I don't think so, but what do I know! That's why I went the "some assembly required" route with the RV.

I probably still have some liver scaring from consoling myself with the cheer of DRINK after writing that check to Superior Air Parts for my XP360 fire breathing engine. But she's a beauty and she works great. Yea, I wish they were cheaper too guys. What's a father to do?:D

Jeff Liebman
RV-8 365 Hours TT
Superior IO-360 Hartzell BA Prop
Airglades Airport, FL
 
This is fresh in my mind since I just ordered my engine last week. To me, two inter-related issues keep costs high--low volume and no competition.

I dont believe the technology in an A/C engine is vastly more expensive than an automotive engine. We're not talking about anything exotic here. How many 4 cylinder, internally combusted, 200hp automotive engines cost $30,000?? None (unless its custom). So, what do the automotive guys have going for them?...HUGE volumes (and huge demand), which makes all the difference getting mfg costs down.

Next question, why dont auto engine manufacturers get involved and eat Lycoming's lunch on price (because they could)...answer, no market, why would they? It makes no business sense for them to play in this market. Remember, less than one half of one percent of the adult population in the US is a licensed pilot...we are a very small group.

Let me tell you, since like I said I recently wrote that check, it really sucks to pay that kind of money for an engine...but, unfortunately, it is what it is...we dont have any options unless you want to go the 'auto conversion' route...which isnt for me.
 
This is an interesting topic and raised awareness of something I talked to my wife about.

I told her, I love this industry and flying. If for some reason I were to die while flying, please don't hire a lawyer and sue everyone in the world. If there is LEGITIMATE cause to be concerned someone was at fault (known issue, NTSB ruling, etc..) then that is one thing. But don't go out and sue the guy who made some bolt and put him out of business because you THINK that is what killed me.

I told her I don't want to contribute to the growing liability issues with aviation. I know none of us are required to sign liability waivers to fly in this field of sport we love, but perhaps if more people sat down with their families and had a frank discussions, there would be real reform.

The lawyers aren't suing these companies for their own good, someone is asking or allowing them to do this. This societal concept of blame someone and sue them when something goes bad, no matter how remotely connected, is crazy.

Well, that's just my opinion.
 
CharlieWaffles said:
I told her, I love this industry and flying. If for some reason I were to die while flying, please don't hire a lawyer and sue everyone in the world. If there is LEGITIMATE cause to be concerned someone was at fault (known issue, NTSB ruling, etc..) then that is one thing. But don't go out and sue the guy who made some bolt and put him out of business because you THINK that is what killed me.
Click to expand...

The sad thing is even your wife probably can't stop this. Your health/life insurance probably has a clause in your contract giving them the right of subrogation. They may use that right to sue on your behalf even if you do not want them to (to reimburse themselves for the money paid to you).

A few months ago a local paragliding pilot was hiking (not even flying) through a county park (that allows paragliding) and through a freak event got attacked and seriously injured by a cow. His medical insurance paid to fix him up, but then against his wishes sued the county claiming they had allowed that cow to be there.
 
Volume, Volume, Volume.....

Yes, Liability insurance is an evil that has done much to destroy GA over the past four decades I've been in aviation....bu tin this case i have to vote with the economics guys. If the entire GA fleet is only increasing by a couple thousand a year, Lycoming is not a "manufacturer" as much as it is a "custom builder" - but they don't just have a couple of guys in a small shop, they have a corporation, with people form engine builders to machinists, to secretaries to support. Imagine spreading the costs of employing (let's say) 50 people - salaries and benefits - over a couple of thousand engines. And then let's not forget materials, overhead, heat and lights for the facilities....

No, I don't LIKE paying that much for engines, and if you think in terms of cars and computers, it seems insane to pay this much - but it is a niche' industry, with tiny volumes, and I don't see much way out of it....

Paul
 
I don't think it is fair to compare the cost of airplane engines to car engines. I think a 4 cyl 200 hp outboard boat engine is a better comparison. A 200hp 4 cyl outboard goes for about $16,000. I figure they sell more, probably have more automated production, have much lower liability exposure, and lower cert costs. My guess would be liability and quantity are the main drivers for our cost premium.
 
rbibb said:
I always thought if some derivative of auto engine could be developed that could leverage some of the volume production of some key parts that would help...
Click to expand...

I think that is part of the Viking Engines business model - they use a Honda Fit engine and adapt it to use in small airplanes. There is at least one flying RV-12 (and some other designs) using this engine and it is certainly less expensive than comparable HP engines. But...expense is only one factor in the decision making process.
 
Grrrr

Yeah I do get depressed when I think of the cost of an engine for my 8. I work at alcoa where we manufacture metal. And yes it is unbelievable the things that have to all go together to get a piece of aluminum. It is expensive. I would gladly sign away any liability for lycoming if they would sell me a new engine for 10000 dollars or so. But it will never happen. Like others have said, it is a small market and the overhead, liability is not kind to us. Look at rotax, I bought the same engine they sell now in 1996 for 7000 usd., now they are what? 20,000? All I can say is just my luck. Still going to build and fly somehow, just may take a little longer.

bird
 
Why no boat engines...

jchang10 said:
Why no boat engine conversions for airplanes? They both have the propeller thingy for propulsion. ;)
Click to expand...

I spent a good bit of time thinking on this as I've owned and overhauled several outboards. #1 Most of the outboards are designed to run vertical. I didn't think it worth trying to reengineer for horizontal running. #2 most of the ones I have worked with are not miserly on fuel.

I'm sure someone else has opinions...
 
Got2Fly said:
I spent a good bit of time thinking on this as I've owned and overhauled several outboards. #1 Most of the outboards are designed to run vertical. I didn't think it worth trying to reengineer for horizontal running. #2 most of the ones I have worked with are not miserly on fuel.

I'm sure someone else has opinions...
Click to expand...

The original homebuilt Scorpion helicopters had engines based on Evinrude V-4 marine outboard engines, but I'm not sure how sucessful they were ultimately.
 
bird said:
Yeah I do get depressed when I think of the cost of an engine for my 8. I work at alcoa where we manufacture metal. And yes it is unbelievable the things that have to all go together to get a piece of aluminum. It is expensive. I would gladly sign away any liability for lycoming if they would sell me a new engine for 10000 dollars or so. But it will never happen. Like others have said, it is a small market and the overhead, liability is not kind to us. Look at rotax, I bought the same engine they sell now in 1996 for 7000 usd., now they are what? 20,000? All I can say is just my luck. Still going to build and fly somehow, just may take a little longer.

bird
Click to expand...

Certainly costs have gone up since 1996, but the largest cost of all is the devaluation of the US dollar. ;)
 
dicel87 said:
I think that is part of the Viking Engines business model - they use a Honda Fit engine and adapt it to use in small airplanes. There is at least one flying RV-12 (and some other designs) using this engine and it is certainly less expensive than comparable HP engines. But...expense is only one factor in the decision making process.
Click to expand...

You get what you pay for. ;)
 
Outboards are an interesting comparison, however, they when you buy one, you are not only buying the powerhead, but also the gear train, shifting mechanism, case both upper and lower, prop, etc. It would be comparable to the engine, prop, cowling, accessories, mounting, etc. for an airplane. Not exactly apples to apples.

Tim
 
Geico266 said:
You get what you pay for. ;)
Click to expand...

And that attitude has done more to kill the alternative engine market than any liability or production volume concerns. If Honda made a 180HP engine that could be dropped into an RV as a Lycoming replacement, anyone familiar with Hondas would buy one in a heartbeat.
 
Mile High Relic said:
It is liability run amok.

In the case noted in the article below, the NTSB found that the engine was NOT at fault. The jury awarded the plaintiffs 89 million of Lycoming's money. That's a lot of engines.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2010/04/07/crash-suit.html
Click to expand...

And that is also the reason Continential sold their company to the Chinese, Technify Motors...... Who in this country would want to produce anything, sell anything, provide any service to anyone, not if but when every past, present, and future profit will be wiped out in a lawsuit.

The writing is on the wall. Lycoming will be next.
 
my first engine went about 400,000 miles!!!!!! my plane is still worth what i payed for it with the new engine installed. can you say that about your car, truck, boat, rv[motorhome], ect.

do you think it is still not worth $25K?

we are so lucky to do what we do. the price of flying is PRICELESS!!!!

my view is a bit different than most.

every 1,000 hrs my plane is payed for by my reasoning. feel better now about paying $25K for that piece of expensive metal? :D

to summarize, why they cost so much, they last and are made of exotic materials.
 
Last edited:
It all about volume

The old comparison between commercial airlpanes and cars is the real driver. With airplanes, they build thousands of planes with millions of parts. With cars, they build millions of cars with thousands of parts.

To deliver 300,000 engines a year (Ford Taurus in 2003) for a single product line, about one every 2 seconds, you spend $100M+ setting up a highly automated engine production line to make the engine for less than $2K (I'm guessing).

How many 360's were delivered last year, 1000?
 
BJohnson said:
The old comparison between commercial airlpanes and cars is the real driver. With airplanes, they build thousands of planes with millions of parts. With cars, they build millions of cars with thousands of parts.

To deliver 300,000 engines a year (Ford Taurus in 2003) for a single product line, about one every 2 seconds, you spend $100M+ setting up a highly automated engine production line to make the engine for less than $2K (I'm guessing).

How many 360's were delivered last year, 1000?
Click to expand...

Well said. Best post of the thread! :D
 
Another good post! :)

I may ruffle feathers again, but here goes! Aviation is not a cheap hobby. If you can't afford it, find another hobby. It is that simple. You can minimise some expenses, but not eliminate them.

Many of the auto conversions I know of have cost more than the option of buying an overhauled second hand engine, and when all the time and effort is taken into account, and missed amounts of accounting, probably a new one.

It is what it is! (My favourite saying too) :)


RV7Ron said:
This is fresh in my mind since I just ordered my engine last week. To me, two inter-related issues keep costs high--low volume and no competition.

I dont believe the technology in an A/C engine is vastly more expensive than an automotive engine. We're not talking about anything exotic here. How many 4 cylinder, internally combusted, 200hp automotive engines cost $30,000?? None (unless its custom). So, what do the automotive guys have going for them?...HUGE volumes (and huge demand), which makes all the difference getting mfg costs down.

Next question, why dont auto engine manufacturers get involved and eat Lycoming's lunch on price (because they could)...answer, no market, why would they? It makes no business sense for them to play in this market. Remember, less than one half of one percent of the adult population in the US is a licensed pilot...we are a very small group.

Let me tell you, since like I said I recently wrote that check, it really sucks to pay that kind of money for an engine...but, unfortunately, it is what it is...we dont have any options unless you want to go the 'auto conversion' route...which isnt for me.
Click to expand...
 
Good Investment!

Good investments aren't cheap and I do share Turbos point of view.
Take my IO-540 for example, bought and paid for a little over a year ago.
The cost for the same engine is already more than 10% higher than it was a year ago. Can't say the same thing for my other investments.
You will enhance the value of your airplane by installing an expensive Lycoming engine.
As to why they are expensive, monopoly, low production numbers, liability.
One of those reasons we can't do much about but the other 2 are self inflicted by our overzealous desire to place blame for anything and everything on someone else.
 
RV10inOz said:
Another good post! :)

Many of the auto conversions I know of have cost more than the option of buying an overhauled second hand engine, and when all the time and effort is taken into account, and missed amounts of accounting, probably a new one.

It is what it is! (My favourite saying too) :)
Click to expand...

On the other side of the coin, having been involved in the auto engined world for over 15 years, I have seen plenty that are much cheaper to acquire, operate and overhaul than traditional engines. The money saved on acquisition, invested and then compounded over time is huge- $40K in my case that I have in the bank by not buying a new Lycoming at the time.

If done right and it works properly, it is a viable way to go for some people.

Liability is the big killer here IMO which keeps traditional engine prices so high. The volumes are high enough to drop unit pricing down to no more than double an auto engine core with the current casting and CNC processes used. There is nothing high tech or expensive in a Lycoming compared to a typical modern car engine. The paper trail adds only minimal costs if done efficiently.
 
While sales volume is small, it is an effect not a cause. From 1963 until 1982 piston airplaneproduction averaged about 10,000 per year. During that time, the CPI adjusted cost of a C172 in today's dollars was bout $80k. Today there are less than 2,000 piston airplanes produced per year. The low volue is an effect of something, which drives higher prices, which furthe reduces the volume, but the volue is not the cause of the high costs.

Tim
 
Ross

I would agree mostly with what you are saying, however for most people most of the time that is not what happens.

I think you know a mate of mine over here with a 6cyl Subbie in an RV8..........Goes like a cut snake, has most bugs sorted because he engineered out the typical problems others were having. Overall costs with all the mods, cowls etc .........nah even he says it would have been cheaper to go an IO360.

Each to his own.
 
Liability

Sorry folks,
I'm late coming to this thread. I'd say that Richard Bibb [rbib], Paul Dye and Mike W have it pretty well covered. Two things I can add. First, back when President Clinton signed into law the package that included limiting aviation manufacturers liability to 18 years, I remember that an executive at Cessna stated that even with the new law, 30% of the cost of a new Cessna would be to cover them against future liability for that 18 year period. So I think you can safely say that Lycoming engines would cost that much less, if we did not live in the most litigious society that has ever existed on this planet.
I like Mike W's contention that aircraft engines are more closely compared to small marine engines, rather than car engines. FYI, these days a replacement automotive "long block" will cost you $6000 to $9000 dollars for a V-6 DOHC or V-8 DOHC engine. That's just the cost of the parts, not the labor to put it in or any of the related parts to install it.
Buying a new Lycoming, you get a more COMPLETE engine. An automotive long block does not come with any accessories. It also does not come with intake or exhaust manifolds, ANY of the fuel injection or ignition system. The cost of a modern automotive engine supplied as Lycoming supplies theirs, would run $10,000 to $15,000.
To those who think that aircraft engines are not improved, you are wrong. They are improved incrementally, with newer [allegedly better] materials & processes. Often, these "improvements" have teething problems; Think carburetor floats, crankshafts, etc. The Lycoming H2AD engine has improved oiling to the top end of the engine. However, the flawed, original lifter design sank it. Due to the small market size, aircraft engine manufacturers can not absorb the costs of a "screw up", like auto manufacturers can. I'd say that things like the recent crankshaft debacle and the H2AD engine have made Lycoming VERY conservative.
Auto manufacturers also have these problems when they introduce new technology. The current "problem child" for auto makers is VVT [variable valve timing] VVT is a system using pressurized oil to allow the computer to advance and retard the timing of the camshafts. Doing this gains them slight fuel economy improvements, improved low end torque, more power and cuts costs [They can omit the Exhaust Gas Regulating Valve or EGR valve for short] These new systems have proved problematic and engine failures with these systems has gone up considerably.
The design of the VVT system is not the only culprit. Newer auto engines require thinner oils, of higher quality and more frequent changes to keep the VVT system healthy. Owners think that these new requirements are simply the auto manufacturers way of lining their pockets. Want to ruin your new car engine? Keep thinking like that. Keep ignoring the mileage and time limits [you must change your oil at least once a year, regardless of mileage. Some manfacturers have dropped "timed" oil changes down to every 3 months]. I just got a call about this from a customer [with above mentioned mind set] about the requirement for 3750 mile or 3 month oil changes on his new, 2012 Infiniti. Keep going to the "quick oil change" place. Odds are, the oil they install does not meet the manufacturers standards for VVT engines. Even many of the "name brand" oils do not meet the VVT specs, unless they are full synthetic.
This issue has become so bad for Ford, that you can now buy genuine Motorcraft oils at competitive prices. Ford and Nissan seem to be having the most problems with engine failures due to people using substandard oil and not changing their oil often enough. I spend hours every month, trying to educate my customers about the oil requirements of modern car engines [and transmissions. Anyone who thinks you can go 100,000 miles between transmission oil and filter changes is a fool! :rolleyes: ] Some people just have to learn the "hard way", to the tune of an $8000 to $12,000 engine replacement [new long block pricing] The junk yard prices of "problem" engines has gone sky high, as the junk yards have 10 buyers for every good, used "problem" engine that they get.
Preventative maintenance is the cheapest investment you can make in your car, truck, motorcycle or aircraft. I apologize for the thread drift. OK, I'm getting down off my soapbox now! :D
Charlie
 
Makes me want my old car back

In my 20's I had a 69 GTO with a 400 cubic inch V8. Dark green with rusted wheel wells, but it sure wasn't fussy about oil.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top