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RV10 air conditioning

50Pesos

Active Member
I am trying to learn which engine mounted air conditioning systems have been tried and what levels of success have been realized. Thanks in advance for the education. I am not interested in the tail cone mounted system for weight and balance reasons and I’m not interested in the ice chest cause I don’t have room.
 
There's a lot of threads on this and lots of opinions.

My only hangup with AC is that when you need it, on those hot, humid, summer days, it's not very useful (considering the trade offs, complexity, weight, expense).

That's from the time you start up to the time you takeoff ... like a car, it takes a bit to get a hot cabin cooled ... so you're still taxing with a door open ...

AC comes on for free usually around 3500 feet ...
 
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There's a lot of threads on this and lots of opinions.

My only hangup with AC is that when you need it, on those hot, humid, summer days, it's not very useful (considering the trade offs, complexity, weight, expense).

That's from the time you start up to the time you takeoff ... like a car, it takes a bit to get a hot cabin cooled.

AC comes on for free usually around 3500 feet ...

Ditto from me. Don't think it's worth the cost, complexity, and weight penalty.......
 
There's a lot of threads on this and lots of opinions.

My only hangup with AC is that when you need it, on those hot, humid, summer days, it's not very useful (considering the trade offs, complexity, weight, expense).

AC comes on for free usually around 3500 feet ...

I disagree about the "Free" AC at 3500 feet. At least in SoCal, where we tend to have low humidity heat, I need to get up above 9000 feet to get any relief on a hot day.

I do wonder how efficient it is when you're trying to keep the CHT's and oil temp out of the red.

-Marc
 
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I am trying to learn which engine mounted air conditioning systems have been tried and what levels of success have been realized. Thanks in advance for the education. I am not interested in the tail cone mounted system for weight and balance reasons and I’m not interested in the ice chest cause I don’t have room.

I have Airflow Systems in my RV10 and it works perfectly from start up to shut down. I disagree with the other comments that it does not work when you need it. Ask any of my RV students what they think of the AC system......please note I don't sell this system and I don't get a commission ether.

https://www.airflow-systems.com/rv-10/

I have AC in the RV7 and RV10, presently building a RV7A for training and it will have AC.

www.RVTraining.com

My opinion only!

Alex D.
 
I have Airflow Systems in my RV10 and it works perfectly from start up to shut down. I disagree with the other comments that it does not work when you need it. Ask any of my RV students what they think of the AC system......please note I don't sell this system and I don't get a commission ether.

https://www.airflow-systems.com/rv-10/

I have AC in the RV7 and RV10, presently building a RV7A for training and it will have AC.

www.RVTraining.com

My opinion only!

Alex D.

I'll absolutely second what Alex said. I recently did my RV-10 transition with him and I'm now going to add to my just finished airplane. I'm sold. If you think it's not beneficial to have because of a "hot cabin", consider the difference between cold air blowing on you vs. hot outside air filling the cabin. Maybe you can handle it, but what about the wife and/or kids. It's not that heavy of a weight penalty and the weight is spread out.
 
I have Airflow Systems in my RV10 and it works perfectly from start up to shut down. I disagree with the other comments that it does not work when you need it. Ask any of my RV students what they think of the AC system......please note I don't sell this system and I don't get a commission ether.

https://www.airflow-systems.com/rv-10/

I have AC in the RV7 and RV10, presently building a RV7A for training and it will have AC.

www.RVTraining.com

My opinion only!



Alex D.


This is exactly why I need it. We will be doing some training and can’t always get above 3000’ in the humid Texas heat. It can be miserable. On top of that it is safer the more comfortable you are.
 
Airflow Systems

I Built my A/C equipped RV-10 in Nth Qld Australia.

I did all of my PPL Training (after initial )and then IFR training in it.
That was 800hrs ago.
You will not have trouble finding an instructor to train you in an A/C equipped RV-10 :)

The latest Aussi Spec from Airflow Systems gives you true "car Like" A/C , from the moment you turn it on, it floods the cabin with cool air.

This is the write up of the first install and Bill at Airflow has now matured the design even further.
https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=173292

There are another 3 x RV-10's here is Australia under construction with this A/C.
 
Eric,

As far as I know, there are basically 3 different A/C systems that are typically used on the RV-10 which have an engine driven compressor. There is the Airflow Systems (which I have), a clone of the Airflow Systems package by South Florida Sport Aviation, and Flighline AC. The primary difference is that the Flightline system places the condenser inside the fuselage and so requires and extra fan to move air through the condenser, while the other two place the condenser in a scoop on the outside bottom of the fuselage.

There is a recently installed SFSAviation system on Joe Waltz's 10, a Flightline system on Robert Skinner's recently completed 10, and an Airflow Systems on my recently complete 10. Joe and Robert are both based at Conroe airport, and I am at Sugar Land, so all relatively close to you. And I think all of us would be more than willing to talk to you about our experiences with our respective A/C system installation and operation. We are also all members of EAA Chapter 302 which meets in Conroe on the 2nd Saturday of each month.

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to talk, and I can then give you my phone number.

Cheers,
 
I have it. (Airflow Systems). Love it. Would do it again in a heartbeat.
Approaching 800 hours and have used it way more than I thought I would.
It isn't just temperature, it's humidity too. You wouldn't believe the water dumped on the ramp when you shut down. All that water would have otherwise absorbed into avionics, interior materials, or condensed into floor cavities to corrode.
The airplane has great visibility which means lots of window area which means greenhouse effect can bake you even at altitude and mild days.
Another benefit is dramatically reducing airsickness events if you're going to carry lots of different pax. Miserably hot breeds puke and it's odiferous lingering effects that also promote more puke. Nothing like cold air in the face for those likely to hurl.

IMHO, A luxury cross country cruiser isn't without conditioned air.
 
I vote YES for Airflow

Ditto all the previous Airflow owners comments.

I also have an Airflow system in my RV-10. I use it all the time here in South Carolina, whether it's 100F or 70F outside.

Until you have experienced an Airflow system in your aircraft, you have no idea what your missing. There is something about sitting on the ramp when it's hot outside and having cold air blowing on you. This will set the tone for your flight experience. I consider it an additional safety feature. Would you rather be cool and comfortable or hot and miserable, your decision?

DustyOne has extensive information on the Airflow system and his install. I also have the Aussie version from Airflow.
 
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Aussie Airflow system, works great! It's mounted on a shelf in the empennage not sure if that's what you meant by tailcone.
 
I'm really hoping the systems continue to mature to the point where I can install one in the F1 Rocket I'm planning to build for my retirement. I know it's blasphemy to talk about adding AC to a Rocket, but I like being comfortable and I want my passengers to be comfortable.

If I can have AC and be comfortable in my old beater truck, I definitely want it in my $200k+ brand new airplane! I'm used to having AC in the big planes I fly at work, but it's almost surreal to have it in a piston plane--we're all so used to being miserable taxiing, during run-up, and waiting to take off. I flew with a friend in a P-Baron and couldn't believe how neat it was to not be sweaty by the time we took off on a hot, muggy August afternoon.

Shoot, I'd fly my RV-3 to lunch today if it had AC. Not gonna happen though because it's supposed to be near 100 degrees today and that bubble canopy is intense!
 
Do it!

Not putting in AC in my RV10 is the biggest mistake I made. I live in the NYC area. In the summer, not having it absolutely sucks. Even if it lowered the temp by 10 degrees, i'd be happy.
 
Eric,

As far as I know, there are basically 3 different A/C systems that are typically used on the RV-10 which have an engine driven compressor. There is the Airflow Systems (which I have), a clone of the Airflow Systems package by South Florida Sport Aviation, and Flighline AC. The primary difference is that the Flightline system places the condenser inside the fuselage and so requires and extra fan to move air through the condenser, while the other two place the condenser in a scoop on the outside bottom of the fuselage.

There is a recently installed SFSAviation system on Joe Waltz's 10, a Flightline system on Robert Skinner's recently completed 10, and an Airflow Systems on my recently complete 10. Joe and Robert are both based at Conroe airport, and I am at Sugar Land, so all relatively close to you. And I think all of us would be more than willing to talk to you about our experiences with our respective A/C system installation and operation. We are also all members of EAA Chapter 302 which meets in Conroe on the 2nd Saturday of each month.

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to talk, and I can then give you my phone number.

Cheers,

Hey Dave, a different "Eric" here. I'm actually in the same area and was wondering if anyone at KSGR had an RV10 in those T-hangars. Was just there last Friday in fact, a friend gave my daughters and I a tour of the tower. Done some training at Anson that I need to finish up (Covid interrupted). If you're ever up for showing off your handiwork let me know. I've been going over the pros/cons between the -10 and a Sling TSI for a good while now.
 
Eric,

I just sent you a PM through this site with my phone number and some additional info. I look forward to meeting you.

Cheers.
 
Sorry 50Pesos, my message (#21) was to a different Eric. However, I have just sent you a PM with my contact info if you would like to talk.

Regards,
 
For the Airflow Systems, the impact is negligible. Compressor forward, condenser mid, evaporator/blower aft.
 
I got a little lost/confused in the discussion of the Aerosport overhead console vents being restrictive.

As the "Aussie" Airflow System product and installations evolve, for those who have recently installed, how are you plumbing the cabin/overhead vents? Are you not utilizing the Aerosport overhead console?

Pictures of recent installations?
 
I use the aerosport console, however I also have two cabin flood vents straight off the baggage bulkhead. Backseat passengers get really cold if they don't shut close the vents a bit.
 
What effect does the air conditioner have on the weight and balance?(weight, moment etc..)

Everyone should run the numbers and decide the impact for themselves. Personally I decided the operational limitations were not what I wanted - but I live in a cooler climate, so the choice was easy. Bear in mind, as you add rear seat passengers and aft baggage, most RV’s go beyond aft cg before they go overweight. I forget the AC system I looked at, but it added 50 lbs and moved an RV10’s cg 3/8” aft. 3/8” doesn’t sound like a lot, but it’s surprising how much stuff you have to pack forward of the baggage area (center tunnel, passengers’ and copilot’s feet) to move the cg 3/8” forward. And the extra 50 pounds equates to 8 gal less of gas -pushing an hour of cruise at an economy setting. But it’s worse! Landing with 50 lbs less gas pushes the cg even further aft, so more bags have to be packed forward. OTOH if your mission doesn’t entail 4 adults plus bags then it probably is a non issue.
 
Living in Oklahoma the heat can get pretty significant from May until September. I currently fly a CTLS with a parachute so that would be a must(Wife insists).
With the parachute and then adding A/C behind the baggage area, the CG is so far back it essentially makes it a two seat airplane with full fuel.
Just wondering if the components are more evenly distributed instead of the the weight in that one location.
If so, does anyone have the moment/arm locations that I can plug into a spreadsheet?

Thanks
 
Electrical A/C

Hoping to complete my -10 in a few months. As the projected lingered, and I my patience degraded, I couldn't think of adding anything else, even though I fully understand that it is better / faster to install now.
I am planning on retrofitting later, and wondering if it might be easier to slide in a #6 AWG to the back, rather than copper tubes?
Did anyone here who install an electric A/C on his -10?
 
Hoping to complete my -10 in a few months. As the projected lingered, and I my patience degraded, I couldn't think of adding anything else, even though I fully understand that it is better / faster to install now.
I am planning on retrofitting later, and wondering if it might be easier to slide in a #6 AWG to the back, rather than copper tubes?
Did anyone here who install an electric A/C on his -10?

I considered it. However, I couldn't find anything with enough BTU's that was 12 VDC based. There are several for truck cabins, but they were only around 4-5K BTU's. I found a few AC units that could have been retrofitted to work, but with the inverter efficiency loss, I needed over 100 amps @ 12V for the AC and couldn't find an alternator big enough that would fit without a bulge in the cowl. An inverter that can pass the amperage also weighed a lot. Remember, the highest demand for AC is on the ground and you need a BIG alternator to put out 100+ amps at 1000 RPM, without over-revving it at 2700.

I was only looking at affordable solutions. I suspect there are systems that would work at higher price points. I think the key is to find a DC system big enough, but doubt they make one for 12VDC. I suspect anything putting out 8K+ BTU will be 24 volts or higher.

One option is a 24VDC marine system, but then you need a 24VDC alternator and a step down unit unit for the rest of the plane.

Larry
 
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I considered it. However, I couldn't find anything with enough BTU's that was 12 VDC based. There are several for truck cabins, but they were only around 4-5K BTU's. I found a few AC units that could have been retrofitted to work, but with the inverter efficiency loss, I needed over 100 amps @ 12V for the AC and couldn't find an alternator big enough that would fit without a bulge in the cowl. An inverter that can pass the amperage also weighed a lot. Remember, the highest demand for AC is on the ground and you need a BIG alternator to put out 100+ amps at 1000 RPM, without over-revving it at 2700.

I was only looking at affordable solutions. I suspect there are systems that would work at higher price points. I think the key is to find a DC system big enough, but doubt they make one for 12VDC. I suspect anything putting out 8K+ BTU will be 24 volts or higher.

One option is a 24VDC marine system, but then you need a 24VDC alternator and a step down unit unit for the rest of the plane.

Larry

One alternator 12 while the second 24?
I already have IBBS backup for the panel

Found these guys:
http://www.airmart.com/sites/defaul...aft Electric Air Conditioning, ThermaCool.pdf

Anyone might have tried?
 
I think you’ll find that an electric motor-compressor system in the tail moves the cg an unacceptable amount aft.
 
Thanks! I must say I am curious which one you're referring to. Feedback is always appreciated. Good luck with the project.

Myron, it was the one in the most recent issue of kitplane I believe. The one where you referenced the tail number choice about your wife.
 
Good point Bob!

I was considering electric(AC) as a removable unit due to the CG issues. Use it when cooling is prioritized over carrying capacity. Most if the DC 4K BTU units were only 40 lbs. However, it all sits behind the baggage bulkhead and therefore a pretty significant weight penalty. I can't imagine any 8-10K BTU electric unit is going to weigh less than 50 lbs, therefore the best approach is going to be engine driven, where a good amount of the weight is up front. They also don't have a 5# electric motor attached to the compressor.

I also looked at savaging an AC system from a Chevy Volt, but couldn't determine the component weights. Possibly unrealistic in your part of the world.

If you have the money and willing to give up the carrying capacity, the systems referenced in this thread seem to be the best compromise.

Larry
 
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Rigid ac

I have seen these posted before in the forums but has anyone actually tried one of these rigid models yet? If anyone has I would be interested to talk to you about it.

https://www.rigidhvac.com/micro-dc-aircon-12v
https://www.rigidhvac.com/store/products/dv3220e-ac-24v-pro
model specs
https://uploads.strikinglycdn.com/f...f8b3/Micro Aircon, DV3220E-AC (Pro) Spec..pdf

I'm tempted to try the DV3220E-AC (24V, Pro) as a retrofit to my 10. Based on the numbers from the manufacturer I estimated a max 27amp draw with a 95% 12 to 24v step up booster and around a 14-18amp steady draw?

1876BTU and 28.3CFM are both on the low side but directed straight at the passengers from overhead it seems like it should be enough to at least take the edge off while staying rather affordable and lightweight. Just wish I could test one hands on before buying. For various reasons I don't want to go the ice cooler route and climbing high isn't practical on a lot of my shorter hops.

Thoughts?

P.S. First post on VAF.:D
 
1876BTU and 28.3CFM are both on the low side but directed straight at the passengers from overhead it seems like it should be enough to at least take the edge off while staying rather affordable and lightweight.

I think you'll find that 1876 BTU just isn't enough. My experience is that 8000 BTU is barely adequate.

Also, welcome to VAF!
 
Yeah, you need about 1.5 tons of refrigeration capacity, which is 18,000 BTU’s. This is what a typical compact car can do.

I have this much capacity in my -6 and on very hot days it needs every bit of that to quickly cool a heat-soaked cabin.
 
Yeah, you need about 1.5 tons of refrigeration capacity, which is 18,000 BTU’s. This is what a typical compact car can do.

I have this much capacity in my -6 and on very hot days it needs every bit of that to quickly cool a heat-soaked cabin.

I am still anxiously waiting for you to share the details of your AC installation. Your post from a year ago was very intriguing with lighter weight components.

Larry
 
Yeah, you need about 1.5 tons of refrigeration capacity, which is 18,000 BTU’s. This is what a typical compact car can do.

I have this much capacity in my -6 and on very hot days it needs every bit of that to quickly cool a heat-soaked cabin.

Luckily almost all my locations I am hangered so not often is the plane heat soaked prior to departure. The back is more often filled with gear rather than people so I wasn't planning any type of flood cooling and I can close the rear vents directing everything to myself and my much prettier half up front. When I do have rear passengers it is usually longer flights where I can climb and use nature's ac. If we are really ambitious I could probably plug in the EPU and pre-cool.

Not going for a flying ice box, just a simpler retrofit to take the edge off when OAT is pushing 100+F. You guys still think that will take 8k+ BTUs?

We have handled low 90s pretty comfortably with just the fresh air vents so far but a recent solo flight with a 107° OAT in cruise is what finally sent me looking for ac lol.
 
For some reason the $4k range sticks in my mind. They are installing these on larger cabin class type aircraft but speaking with Peter Schiff directly they are very interested in creating something for the EAB crowd.

They do exhibit at Sun N Fun which is where I learned about them. He mentioned in something like a -10, part of the system could be installed, with the other half removable 'when not needed'. This was the Sofie model with the glycol heat transfer mechanism.

The 'Sofie Lite' operates differently and would be an even more removable system. Venting out the tail/bottom skin, or even making another baggage door with the intake/exhaust air that could be swapped out when A/C is needed was a possibility. He would probably like to hear from more builders and have somebody pioneer the install so it could be refined. A partially removable system at 1/2 price of current options would be great!
 
SofieLite

I reached out to Peter via email for more information on his Sofie Lite model. I'll keep you posted on what I find.
 
SofieLite

I spoke to Peter this morning on the phone. Sharing with his permission. At the moment they are in the process of redeveloping and improving the SofieLite model. He expected to have more updates in about 2-3 weeks so if anyone is interested reach out to him and I'm sure he can add you to the update list. He mentioned the following specs but they may be subject to change during the remodel.

12&24v available

12v specs
~30lb
24"x7"x12" LWH
estimated 8,000BTU
up to 80amps adjustable with included control box and cord
Unit price ~$4500

They are looking at an axial fan upgrade option that would add about $600.
He had a 120amp alternator in mind that should fit in our RVs for about $200.

The rough plan was the same as before, mount in the baggage with heat dumped through the bulkhead and some form of fresh air inlet for the condenser. They plan to have slots for fans on the condenser if needed but prefer to just use ram air.

https://www.peterschiffaero.com/
 
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